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Digital software users: Is an LDT HSI-88 a must have for s88 feedback?
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Offline Roland  
#1 Posted : 18 January 2021 04:03:46(UTC)
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Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 333
Location: Toronto, Canada
I've been experiencing a feedback issue with my LDT HSI-88 that even with support from LDT/Bühler, we haven't been able to figure out. If I don't use the HSI-88 and instead I connect my s88s through my CS3 and then to my PC, I don't experience the issue, but from what I've read in the past, I *may* experience s88 feedback delays that could impact an action from occurring in time (e.g. stopping at a certain point). In the event that we can't figure out the issue, I'd like to know if going through my CS3 is a viable option with 10 s88 modules (>150 contact sections). Is anyone else doing this without an HSI-88 device? Have you experienced any s88 feedback delays to be concerned about?

Edit: Another question more for HSI-88 users: have you ever tried connecting your s88 modules to your central station to see how much of an impact (if any) you experience within your PC software?

Thanks,
Roland
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline PeFu  
#2 Posted : 18 January 2021 07:41:09(UTC)
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PeFu

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Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
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When I re-entered into the hobby 4 years ago, I remember there were discussions in forums on using s88 feedback connected via CS2, on issues that just had been fixed. Earlier, e.g. TrainController didn’t even support this combo. The HSI-88 setup used to be the solution. Now, I connect a chain of 5 pcs Littfinski RM-88-N-O via ethernet wires, and experience no issues at all from my 80 sections.

Smile

Edited by user 18 January 2021 11:07:54(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline pederbc  
#3 Posted : 18 January 2021 16:11:37(UTC)
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pederbc

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Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
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Location: Eslöv, Sweden
I’m using the ESU ECoS together with Traincontroller and have all my S88’s connected via the HSI-88. When I was running them through the ECoS I experienced enough latency to impact smooth running in Traincontroller. With the HSI-88 I don’t have this problem. I must add that I started using the HSI-88 already in version 5 of TC, now in version 9. Maybe it would have worked OK now.

Peder
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Offline Roland  
#4 Posted : 18 January 2021 16:25:58(UTC)
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Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 333
Location: Toronto, Canada
Another question for HSI-88 users. Do you have the Marklin 43570 "DB Regio" Bi-Level Car Set? The s88 feedback interference issue occurs when 2 or more of these cars (with the original internal LEDs) are on the layout. If I remove the cab car with the pickup shoe so that the LEDs are no longer powered, no more interference.

My preference is definitely to use the HSI-88 to eliminate any chance of the CS causing delays but it's not looking like that will be possible unless I just don't run these Bi-Level cars.



My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline pederbc  
#5 Posted : 18 January 2021 18:11:46(UTC)
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pederbc

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Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 182
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Hi Roland,

Are you sure this has to do with the HSI-88? What types of S88 are you using? I am only using the grounding type, i e I’m using C-track and use one rail as sensor. Are you using the current-sensing type?

Peder
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Offline Roland  
#6 Posted : 18 January 2021 18:36:27(UTC)
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Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roland,

Are you sure this has to do with the HSI-88? What types of S88 are you using? I am only using the grounding type, i e I’m using C-track and use one rail as sensor. Are you using the current-sensing type?

Peder


Hi Peder,

Indirectly yes that's the belief. According to LDT/Bühler, the output voltage of the HSI-88 is 5v while the CS3 output voltage is 12v, and 12v is less susceptible to the interference supposedly caused by the in-car LEDs. I guess you can say the cause is the LEDs, but not using an HSI can avoid the resulting problem since the CS3 is less susceptible. I'm more than open to other opinions and advice from other experts on the matter.

I'm using Märklin S88 (60881) modules and grounded sections of track.

Thanks,
Roland
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline pederbc  
#7 Posted : 18 January 2021 19:42:06(UTC)
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pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 182
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Hmm, really strange. If there is an interfirance it should only affect the S88 unit and not the HSI-88. Maybe there is interfirance on the bus between HSI and the S88 unit(s)? Another thing: are you using the ”diode trick”? I use this on all tracks which is a great improvement.

Peder
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Offline Roland  
#8 Posted : 18 January 2021 23:26:42(UTC)
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Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 333
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Hmm, really strange. If there is an interfirance it should only affect the S88 unit and not the HSI-88. Maybe there is interfirance on the bus between HSI and the S88 unit(s)? Another thing: are you using the ”diode trick”? I use this on all tracks which is a great improvement.

Peder


It's very strange. You're right, the interference is technically only affecting the s88 modules. But it's only a problem if I use the HSI-88 instead of routing my s88 modules through my CS3 (due to the voltage difference)

We went over all of my wiring lengths and diameters and I also did try the diode trick but it didn't make a difference unfortunately.

My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline pederbc  
#9 Posted : 19 January 2021 08:00:39(UTC)
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pederbc

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Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 182
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Well, I hope you solve it. One thing I learned though: how to spell INTERFERENCE! I don’t think I have ever written it Blink

Peder
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 19 January 2021 15:48:14(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,101
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Hmm, really strange. If there is an interfirance it should only affect the S88 unit and not the HSI-88. Maybe there is interfirance on the bus between HSI and the S88 unit(s)? Another thing: are you using the ”diode trick”? I use this on all tracks which is a great improvement.

Peder


It's very strange. You're right, the interference is technically only affecting the s88 modules. But it's only a problem if I use the HSI-88 instead of routing my s88 modules through my CS3 (due to the voltage difference)

We went over all of my wiring lengths and diameters and I also did try the diode trick but it didn't make a difference unfortunately.



have you tried optoisolating the s88 inputs? The devices used by LDT for their optoisolated versions are readily available through farnell and the like.

My suspicion is that the s88s are getting noise on their clock inputs, possibly because the HSI-88 is clocking so much faster that the signal is getting ringing or other problems. Is there a way to slow down the clocking rate of the HSI-88?
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Offline Roland  
#11 Posted : 19 January 2021 22:35:51(UTC)
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Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 333
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
have you tried optoisolating the s88 inputs? The devices used by LDT for their optoisolated versions are readily available through farnell and the like.


I haven't tried their optoisolated versions. Reading a bit more about them, it sounds like they could help. Unfortunately I've already invested in a bunch of Märklin 60881 s88 modules but I do need to eventually buy two more so I could give them a try.

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
My suspicion is that the s88s are getting noise on their clock inputs, possibly because the HSI-88 is clocking so much faster that the signal is getting ringing or other problems. Is there a way to slow down the clocking rate of the HSI-88?


Not sure on that - I can ask LDT. One thing I noticed was that the interference was so significant, that even neighboring ports on the s88 module (that were unoccupied!) were flickering in RocRail/TrainController. I was hoping the diode trick would help but it did not.
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline applor  
#12 Posted : 21 January 2021 03:14:34(UTC)
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applor

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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
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Location: Brisbane, Queensland
An interesting read, I've yet to experience a flickering issue related to specific rollingstock (and I've had more than my fair share of flickering issues) using 13x S88 modules on HSI-88 USB.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Roland  
#13 Posted : 21 January 2021 03:50:13(UTC)
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Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 333
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
An interesting read, I've yet to experience a flickering issue related to specific rollingstock (and I've had more than my fair share of flickering issues) using 13x S88 modules on HSI-88 USB.


I have many questions for you :) What was the cause on your layout? How did you resolve it? Do you have any rolling stock with built-in LEDs and current conducting couplers? Did you ever try removing your HSI-88 from the equation to see if you still experienced the flickering?

I should also see if I have any other rolling stock with LEDs built-in to see if they trigger the flickering as well.
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline Roland  
#14 Posted : 12 February 2021 15:23:35(UTC)
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Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 333
Location: Toronto, Canada
Just in case someone else encounters the same HSI-88 issue in future, I thought to share that I've come across a solution/workaround. I had always been powering my HSI-88 from my track buses (CS3). Earlier this week I made the switch to an external 15V DC power supply and have not experienced any interference/flickering issues since.
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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