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Gotthard panoramic Express- Train Compositions?
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 08 December 2020 17:23:58(UTC)
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5HorizonsRR

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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,865
Location: CA, USA
Hi everyone,

A question for the Swiss railway experts on here: I'm working out my Gotthard Panoramic express set, and trying to figure out the coaches that appear on the train, with the exception of the obvious dome cars. Google images and their website tell a little, but I could use some clarifications if anyone knows:

1- I'm fairly confident the train never runs with a dining car, correct?
2- They run a few "standard" IR coaches in the consist, is there any rhyme or reason to what, how many, and 1st versus 2nd class?

Thanks in advance!
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Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 08 December 2020 18:25:26(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,892
Location: Montreal, QC
The current GPE (Gotthard Panorama Express) train, running from Flüelen to Bellinzona is made up of a mix of SBB rolling stock. The prime element of the train is composed of hip to 3 of the Apm EC Panorama coaches, supplemented by EC or EWIV and RIC coaches, all by now in the current (ICN) livery.

My consist is made up of the Roco coaches 74400-74402, supplemented by a single Roco Apm EC (64399) and a pair of LS Models B RIC (47276 or 47279 Sets of 2 each).

To recreate a similar consist using Maerklin coaches, you would have to use the 43650 GPE set, reinforced with a single Apm EC or EW IV A (42156) and an EWIV B (42157).
The Apm in the new livery was only available in the 43671 or 43672 sets as well as in a few start sets (29463)
For a shortened version, you can just use the 43651 set.

(at 2:20)

https://www.sbb.ch/en/le...rd-panorama-express.html

The nice thing about the older RIC coaches is that unlike the new EC stock, you can still open the windows.

I skipped the GPE on my last trip because the agent was pretty insistent on the ticket including the boat on the Lake of Lucerne (Vierwalstättersee) and I was more interested in taking the train the whole route. I ended up taking one of the newish ETR 610/RABe 503s through the base tunnel. Not much to see out the window ;)

Regards

Mike C
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#3 Posted : 08 December 2020 20:56:04(UTC)
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5HorizonsRR

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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,865
Location: CA, USA
Thanks Mike! Interesting they run a few second class cars, which the website doesn't mention. I'm using the Marklin 3 pack of dome cars, a 4th dome from the 43671 set, and a pair of standard IC units :)

Seems prototypical enough!
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Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 09 December 2020 04:27:03(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,892
Location: Montreal, QC
The panorama coaches and Apm are first class (air conditioned). The second class RIC coaches are open seating second class coaches, but the kicker is the opening windows. People seem to like to be able to take photos from the open windows, something that cannot be done from the first class coaches.

I just noted that some of the more recent photos seem to show the three panorama coaches with only a pair of Eurocity coaches. I wonder whether they have done away with the old RIC coaches that used to run with the train.



Regards

Mike C
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Offline Gotthard  
#5 Posted : 12 December 2020 14:41:23(UTC)
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Gotthard

Switzerland   
Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
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Location: Zug, Steinhausen
Hello.
My first post in the forum.

Doesn’t the other RIC:s make up sets of their own and stop in Erstfeldt where they turn back to Zürich and Basel. 460 in one end and a control carriage in the other.
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Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 12 December 2020 16:57:59(UTC)
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mike c

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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
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Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Gotthard Go to Quoted Post
Hello.
My first post in the forum.

Doesn’t the other RIC:s make up sets of their own and stop in Erstfeldt where they turn back to Zürich and Basel. 460 in one end and a control carriage in the other.


Welcome to the Forum. I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

The RIC (1970s) coaches cannot be used in Pendelzug (push-pull) consists. The consists with Re 460 and pilot coach (IC Bt) are all composed of either EW IV or EC rolling stock. On the Gotthard, most of those consists are operating in trains between Zürich/Basel and Lugano or Locarno. Some of those trains have now been replaced by RABe 501 Giruno.

The RIC coaches (B 50) are used in conventional trains and as reinforcement coaches. As new trainsets come into service, the RIC coaches will probably be phased out as EC and EWIV coaches become available for those tasks. That has already been the fate of the EWI and EWII.

As of 2021, the SOB will be operating services on the Gotthard, with stop in Erstfeld, using their new Stadler trainsets, running over the mountain route to both Locarno and Lugano. SBB will continue to run services through the base tunnel using RABe 501 and Re 460 Pendel consists.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Gotthard  
#7 Posted : 14 December 2020 22:14:04(UTC)
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Gotthard

Switzerland   
Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Zug, Steinhausen
Well, not saying you are wrong. The push/pull are now back running over the Gotthardpass again. But they didn’t do that for quite some time up until recently. We all had to change in Erstfeld if we wanted to go over the pass and not through the tunnel. That is my observation.
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Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 15 December 2020 04:23:23(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,892
Location: Montreal, QC
If I recall correctly, when I was there last summer (2019), the base tunnel began north of Erstfeld, so any transfer of train would have to occur in either Flüelen or Altdorf.
The Gotthard Panorama Express runs from Flüelen Bahnhof to Lugano and vice-versa. I would think that most tourists would probably make the change in Arth-Goldau and Bellinzona if available.
I found the base tunnel to be impressive technologically, but rather boring, kind of like our subway but without stations. Given the choice between saving 30-40 minutes and enjoying the scenery, I would take the scenery any day.

I don't think if given the chance, I would go through the tunnel again, unless I had a meeting in Milano that I had to get to in a hurry.

I have not yet had the chance to consult the new schedule for Zürich-Lugano or Züricch-Bellinzona. I guess the new schedule has been in effect for a few days now.
I think the SOB "Treno Gottardo" are only fully coming into service in 2021. For now, they are only running Basel/Luzern to Bellinzona and back.
https://unterwegs.sob.ch/pages/trenogottardo

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Gotthard  
#9 Posted : 15 December 2020 09:04:02(UTC)
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Gotthard

Switzerland   
Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Zug, Steinhausen
Well. Since I have been living in Flüelen for 20 years and now since a year is outside Arth I can tell you that you are right regarding the tunnel entry. Still. All passengers traveling over the pass on push/pull was forced to change trains in Erstfeldt for quite some time up until recently. The pass and all the way to Milan you had to go by S3 which was quite uncomfortable for us traveling regularly. Now since the new timetable came into force (13 dec) (and also the new double track in Walchwil by the way) we seem to be back to normal. I have tried to get an answer to why they did this (it wasn’t in the timetable) but only heard speculation. (It was the same in the beginning with the etr 610 since it showed excessive wear on the tracks over the pass it was not used here as intended until the tunnel opened )

The panorama trains never used Altdorf as a base. Didn’t even stop in Altdorf when they were part of the regular service. Always Flüelen since that is a demand from the ferry company on the lake. (Wilhelm Tell route etc) Even when the new station in Altdorf is ready they will use Flüelen as a base for that reason.
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Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 15 December 2020 16:41:53(UTC)
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mike c

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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,892
Location: Montreal, QC
The train change in Erstfeld was only required for those who wished to disembark at stations along the route served by regional/local trains. Over recent years, service to stations like Gurtnellen, Wassen was provided by bus, with trains only stopping in Erstfeld and in Göschenen on the north ramp. I don't know whether the new Treno Gottardo will provide local service once again, or will simply take the place of Interregio and IC traffic with minimal stops. Fast trains (Lugano/Chiasso/Locarno) went straight through with next stop in Bellinzona.

I had a question regarding the modifications between Zug and Arth-Goldau. Is the line now fully double tracked or have they simply doubled the trackage in certain areas to allow trains to pass?

I had not read any reports about excessive track wear caused by the ETR 610/RABDe 503 Astoro.

My comment regarding Altdorf was solely regarding opportunities to change trains north of the base tunnel portal. I presume that most passengers will change trains at Arth-Goldau and those taking the "Gotthard Panorama Express" will continue to transfer at Flüelen.

Here is a question. Will the "Treno Gottardo" southbound trains from Luzern be travelling via Rotkreuz or will they use the line via Meggen and Küssnacht/Immensee to Arth-Goldau?

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Gotthard  
#11 Posted : 25 December 2020 12:52:05(UTC)
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Gotthard

Switzerland   
Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Zug, Steinhausen
Hello.

Hello again. Sorry for the slow response.

The track between Zug and Arth Goldau is only double track for approx 2.1 km in Walchwil (between Walchwil Bhf and a few hundred meters past Walchwil Hörndli). (As always still quite an impressive amount of traffic with the discipline these guys have.)

Regarding the Panorama I certainly hope they will go over Meggen. Although I heard a rumor (unconfirmed) that SOB wanted to turn around already in Flüelen but that might have been a negotiation tactic. The ferry company (SGV) have quite a lot to say in these matters since a large proportion of the passengers arrive with the ferry to Flüelen on the so called Wilhelm Tell route and continue either back to Luzern or over the pass w train.

What you are saying regarding Erstfeldt is how it was supposed to work. Not how it has been working in reality. I haven’t been able to go with push pull over the pass more than five-ten times in the last two years (of perhaps 75 journeys). They have forced all of us to change in Erstfeldt for another train. Going through the tunnel is a different matter.

At certain times it is faster to go over the pass than to wait for a train to go through the tunnel. Most of the time I go from Milan to Flüelen or ArthGoldau. Since the train through the tunnel doesn’t stop until Arth Goldau you often have to go over the pass even if you are traveling to/from Schwyz or Brunnen. (Slower to go via Arth.)

Regarding the ETR 610 they had quite a lot of problems over the pass. I’ll see if I can find a link.

On a final note the new SBB RABe 501 Giruno are running impressively and in impressive numbers on the newly re opened Zugersee east side and onwards since the 13th.


Kind Regards and merry Christmas
Gotthard
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Offline Gotthard  
#12 Posted : 25 December 2020 13:21:32(UTC)
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Gotthard

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Location: Zug, Steinhausen
F436F057-573D-4FB6-821E-3264B28A9EDD.jpeg
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Offline Gotthard  
#13 Posted : 25 December 2020 13:24:22(UTC)
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Gotthard

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Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
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Location: Zug, Steinhausen
3179EF7A-C624-4125-8FC1-5F5D66B3D093.jpeg
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Offline Gotthard  
#14 Posted : 25 December 2020 13:26:10(UTC)
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Gotthard

Switzerland   
Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Zug, Steinhausen
New double track in Walchwil. First time I upload photos so I don’t know if it is working.
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Offline Gotthard  
#15 Posted : 25 December 2020 14:43:57(UTC)
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Gotthard

Switzerland   
Joined: 03/11/2020(UTC)
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Location: Zug, Steinhausen
New SOB line

66E75682-989B-47C5-91AF-6158061297DD.jpeg
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