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Question Speed problems - My inherited DB 185 - 36850
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Offline Timnomads  
#1 Posted : 07 December 2020 09:45:23(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Dear All

I have recently inherited an older marklin loco

BR 185 36850 picture.jpg

It has an FX decoder, but I was still able to find it ok on the CS3 Database. It installed ok, and lights worked direction ok, but the speed is very slow, when on max speed it travels at about 25% the speed of my other locos. I thought ok service it, and I had it oiled etc by a couple of expert friends.

After retesting for 1 hour in each direction, the problem still remains. I could upgrade the decoder 60977 or 60949, but wether this solve the speed problem, i am not sure.

Any ideas, or similar expierences Confused

Tim
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 07 December 2020 12:08:11(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
The maximum speed can be reduced using decoder settings. Have you tried setting the speed to maximum? A decoder reset should also set the speed to maximum.

I don't think a new decoder will make the loco faster if the decoder is already set to maximum.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Timnomads  
#3 Posted : 07 December 2020 12:30:36(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
The maximum speed can be reduced using decoder settings. Have you tried setting the speed to maximum? A decoder reset should also set the speed to maximum.

I don't think a new decoder will make the loco faster if the decoder is already set to maximum.


Hi Tom

Yes, tried the reset max is 64 and its set there on CV address 5

Tim
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Offline blid  
#4 Posted : 07 December 2020 13:23:59(UTC)
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blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have had similar problems with Z engines and Digitrax decoders. The reason was that Railcom was active (default on my new EcoS). OK when Railcom was turned off.
If your decoder has the “Crawl for switching” (usually at F4) maybe it is set. Not likely after a reset.
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 07 December 2020 14:03:48(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
I don't know what your other locos are, but the prototype of this loco has a maximum speed of 140 km/h. Locos with a higher prototype speed (200+ km/h) should be much faster, especially older models.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Timnomads  
#6 Posted : 07 December 2020 15:47:25(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't know what your other locos are, but the prototype of this loco has a maximum speed of 140 km/h. Locos with a higher prototype speed (200+ km/h) should be much faster, especially older models.


The speed is more like 40 kph, when I intially put it on the track out of the box, it took off like a rocket and could not be contolled. after installing it on the CS3 the speed changed drastically.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 08 December 2020 09:30:56(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
So far I had no problems with the motors of these Hobby locos, but I heard there can be problems - problems that can even kill the decoder.
Maybe run the loco without body in a dark room. If you see a lot of sparking in the motor then maybe that is the problem.

The motor is "maintenance-free". There is no simple way to clean the commutator. But you can get a complete motor as a spare part - soldering is required to replace it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Timnomads  
#8 Posted : 08 December 2020 09:33:41(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
So far I had no problems with the motors of these Hobby locos, but I heard there can be problems - problems that can even kill the decoder.
Maybe run the loco without body in a dark room. If you see a lot of sparking in the motor then maybe that is the problem.

The motor is "maintenance-free". There is no simple way to clean the commutator. But you can get a complete motor as a spare part - soldering is required to replace it.



Ok I will try with t he lights off and let you know
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Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 08 December 2020 11:01:47(UTC)
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hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
There are some tests that you can do, to see if the problem is the decoder, the motor or the drivetrain.

Try running the loco in analogue mode. -so see if the motor can run faster. (If you have an analogue trafo)
De-solder and remove the motor and try running it freely from a DC-source. Maybe a 9V battery.
With the motor out, try removing the wormdrive (if it has one), and see if everything spins freely.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Timnomads  
#10 Posted : 08 December 2020 13:30:51(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
There are some tests that you can do, to see if the problem is the decoder, the motor or the drivetrain.

Try running the loco in analogue mode. -so see if the motor can run faster. (If you have an analogue trafo)
De-solder and remove the motor and try running it freely from a DC-source. Maybe a 9V battery.
With the motor out, try removing the wormdrive (if it has one), and see if everything spins freely.


I have no method to run in analogue mode at home, having only CS3 or CS2. At my model club we did try running it on analogue by connecting wires to wheels and slider, it ran but we can't say how fast, we also checked the drive train to see how well it moved, and did not see any problem
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Offline bph  
#11 Posted : 08 December 2020 18:40:42(UTC)
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bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post

Yes, tried the reset max is 64 and its set there on CV address 5

Tim


Hi

Try again with cv 05 set to 63/255, not 64, using CS3. you might have to enter 255 on the cs3, as there is a factor of 4 in some cases.

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Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 08 December 2020 19:05:40(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,132
Location: Paris, France
Hi Tim
Another possibility that happened to me on a BR 58. The CAN motor changed for a very low impedance (10 Ohms) and the Sound decoder would have all its fonctions working but no power to the motor.
The motor, removed from the loco was looking like new, no smell and turning smoothly without noise but the current draw was much bigger than other locos. Remember that a multimeter measures only average current but current peaks may be much higher during the speed control process.

I checked the impedance of other small can motors used by Märklin and it was around 45 Ohms.
So I am sorry to say that I ordered a spare motor and replaced the decoder by a mSD3 programmed with the Märklin Sound project for the loco.

So in short I recommend to check the motor impedance and if below 30 Ohm I recommend to exchange it (25 to 30€, much cheaper than a Sound decoder (80€ at best in Germany in good stores)
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
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Offline Timnomads  
#13 Posted : 09 December 2020 08:54:12(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Tim
Another possibility that happened to me on a BR 58. The CAN motor changed for a very low impedance (10 Ohms) and the Sound decoder would have all its fonctions working but no power to the motor.
The motor, removed from the loco was looking like new, no smell and turning smoothly without noise but the current draw was much bigger than other locos. Remember that a multimeter measures only average current but current peaks may be much higher during the speed control process.

I checked the impedance of other small can motors used by Märklin and it was around 45 Ohms.
So I am sorry to say that I ordered a spare motor and replaced the decoder by a mSD3 programmed with the Märklin Sound project for the loco.

So in short I recommend to check the motor impedance and if below 30 Ohm I recommend to exchange it (25 to 30€, much cheaper than a Sound decoder (80€ at best in Germany in good stores)
Cheers
Jean


Hi

I restored the loco from defaults, using my CS3 and programming track for the 5th time, and lo and behold this time, it worked, we have speed !! Huh I will have to put it down to some bad programming by Marklin, after all they are model makers not computer programmers.

I now just have to program acceleration and deceleration speeds to match my DB 152 so I can run them double headed on my container train.

Thanks All

Tim
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 09 December 2020 15:37:31(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post

I restored the loco from defaults, using my CS3 and programming track for the 5th time, and lo and behold this time, it worked, we have speed !! Huh I will have to put it down to some bad programming by Marklin, after all they are model makers not computer programmers.


The decoders get programmed on the production line immediately before they get put in the item. I watched this happen at the factory at the last IMA. The person on the production line takes a programmed decoder out of the programmmer, puts another one in the programmer, then fits the one taken out into the loco or whatever it is to be fitted to.

here it is happening ...

IMG_0927.JPG

The black box on the ladies right is a gang programmer, doing what looks like up to 4 decoders at a time, judging by the lights on the front of it.

The lady doing this operation had her anti-static strap attached to her leg ...
IMG_0926.JPG

I just hope she didn't have nylon stockings on at the time ... Scared

Another lady had her anti-static strap attached to her wrist ...
IMG_0929.JPG
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 09 December 2020 15:55:34(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
The decoders get programmed on the production line immediately before they get put in the item.
The decoders of the 36850 discussed here are fx decoders without decoder socket. Still they will get their firmware at some stage - but probably not at the loco assembly line.
If the decoder reset does not work properly then there is some problem with the decoder firmware or the CS3 firmware.

mfx decoders will be customized for individual loco models - but that is a different story.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Timnomads  
#16 Posted : 10 December 2020 12:08:30(UTC)
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Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
The decoders get programmed on the production line immediately before they get put in the item.
The decoders of the 36850 discussed here are fx decoders without decoder socket. Still they will get their firmware at some stage - but probably not at the loco assembly line.
If the decoder reset does not work properly then there is some problem with the decoder firmware or the CS3 firmware.

mfx decoders will be customized for individual loco models - but that is a different story.



Thanks for the photos, I have tried changing my DB152 to match the speeds (Mfx), not so successful, so i will run it with my SBB Alpezhammer also a hobby 185

Tim
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