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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 08 November 2020 18:23:19(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 565
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

I have been battling with my (lack of) understanding regarding this for the best part of this year. If I set "Route speed at enter" and route speed to V_mid for "Wait", say from bk21 to bk3, where bk3 is the station to stop at, where should V_mid come into force, if at all??

When it says "Route speed at enter", which enter does it mean?

TBH, no matter what I have tried, it doesn't come into force at any point, but why not? It just continues at cruise speed and then drops to block speed, V_min, when entering bk3.

I was watching the log today, trying this out, and I saw the below, which clearly states RocRail's intention to keep going at V_cruise between block bk21 and bk3, despite clearly saying

20201108.141135.491 r4205a AE96D700 OLcDrive 0234 Block[bk21] V_hint [cruise] (on enter) state=[8][LC_ENTERBLOCK]
[...]
20201108.141135.533 r9999a MR4001 ORoute 0356 status of route [bk21+]-[bk3-] is 1, locked by MR4001
20201108.141135.533 r4205I AE96D700 OLcDrive 0059 GotoBlock bk3 found for "MR4001"
20201108.141135.533 r9999I MR4001 OLoc 4053 next goto block; prev=[bk3]
20201108.141135.533 r4205I AE96D700 OLcDrive 0064 stop after reaching the last gotoBlock
20201108.141135.533 r4201I AE96D700 OLcDrive 0286 Found destination for "MR4001": "bk3" (from bk21)
20201108.141135.534 r4201a AE96D700 OLcDrive 0297 Setting state for "MR4001" from LC_ENTERBLOCK to LC_WAIT4EVENT.
20201108.141135.534 r4205a AE96D700 OLcDrive 0234 Block[bk21] V_hint [cruise] (on enter) state=[15][LC_WAIT4EVENT]
20201108.141135.534 r9999a AE96D700 OLcDrive 0331 route speed at enter for loco [MR4001]
20201108.141135.534 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 4741 <lc V_hint="cruise" V_maxkmh="0" dir="true"/>

and slight further down:

20201108.141135.534 r9999a MR4001 OBlock 4465 set block [bk3] aspect to red
20201108.141135.534 r9999a MR4001 OBlock 4465 set block [bk3] aspect to red
20201108.141135.535 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 3249 SBT enter block=bk21 interval=0 decelerate=0 train=
20201108.141135.535 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 3302 BBT block=bk21 does not allow BBT
20201108.141135.535 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 2375 loco [MR4001]: reset BBT
20201108.141135.535 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 2948 more messages available...
20201108.141135.545 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 2886 new message 117:command nrruns=73775
20201108.141135.545 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 1842 ignore cmd because there is no diff "cruise" == 90
20201108.141135.545 r4201a AE96D700 OLcDrive 0085 Slow down for **not set** route running MR4001
20201108.141135.546 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 4741 <lc V_hint="mid" dir="true"/>

but then:

20201108.171557.472 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 1832 V_hint: [cruise][0 maxkmh] = 90 sbtDec=0 regulated=1 mode=auto bbt=0
20201108.171557.473 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 1866 check function event (curV=50 drvV=90)
20201108.171557.473 r9999a MR4001 OLoc 2135 Sending command...V=90 dir=fwd secaddr=false

So it is just ignoring the route speed?

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline applor  
#2 Posted : 09 November 2020 22:27:26(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
OK first to answer your questions.

Enter means the enter event for your block. This would include combined events such as enter2in.

You say you've assigned V_mid for 'wait' but wait is when a train is having to wait because the next block is occupied, so when it reaches enter and is having to wait, the wait speed is applied until it reaches IN and then stops.


Lets get to what you're trying to achieve however:

If you want the train to travel between bk21 and bk3 at speed mid, set the route speed to mid instead of cruise.

As for route speed at enter, it needs to also be defined on the loco. It is explained better in the loco section of the wiki:
https://wiki.rocrail.net...-en#route_speed_at_enter

To highlight for you: Use the next route speed at ENTER. Normally this speed is used at the IN event.

What it means is when a loco is arriving into a block but is travelling to the next block, as soon as it reaches the enter sensor of the arriving block the next route speed is applied instead of waiting until it reaches in.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by applor
Offline morsing  
#3 Posted : 10 November 2020 09:07:57(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 565
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Thanks applor,

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
OK first to answer your questions.

Enter means the enter event for your block. This would include combined events such as enter2in.


But which block?

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

You say you've assigned V_mid for 'wait' but wait is when a train is having to wait because the next block is occupied, so when it reaches enter and is having to wait, the wait speed is applied until it reaches IN and then stops.


Ok, I assumed 'wait' was relating to 'wait' in the block settings.

Your sentence above indicates that the 'ENTER' in question the the ENTER in the second block, but you can just set that speed in the block instead.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

Lets get to what you're trying to achieve however:

If you want the train to travel between bk21 and bk3 at speed mid, set the route speed to mid instead of cruise.


Almost, I want it at Vmid if it is stopping at the station, otherwise Vcruise.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

As for route speed at enter, it needs to also be defined on the loco. It is explained better in the loco section of the wiki:
https://wiki.rocrail.net...-en#route_speed_at_enter


'Route speed at enter' is set on the loco.

I have read the wiki many times over, the link you have supplied says what to set in the route and loco settings, but it doesn't really do much to explain what it actually does. Going by the words and sentences used, I would assume it reduces the speed at ENTER, the only ambiguity being which ENTER. As it doesn't slow down at the first ENTER, I can't see any difference between this and just setting a block speed.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

To highlight for you: Use the next route speed at ENTER. Normally this speed is used at the IN event.


The only place a search on the Wiki comes up with "Next route speed at ENTER" is the link you have supplied above. And that is what I thought I was doing...

quote=applor;621886]
What it means is when a loco is arriving into a block but is travelling to the next block, as soon as it reaches the enter sensor of the arriving block the next route speed is applied instead of waiting until it reaches in.


Ok, so it *is* the first ENTER, like I expected.

Maybe I have quite simply just hit a bug Mellow I even started looking through the global config but couldn't find anything referring to this.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline applor  
#4 Posted : 10 November 2020 22:39:57(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

What it means is when a loco is arriving into a block but is travelling to the next block, as soon as it reaches the enter sensor of the arriving block the next route speed is applied instead of waiting until it reaches in.


Ok, so it *is* the first ENTER, like I expected.

Maybe I have quite simply just hit a bug Mellow I even started looking through the global config but couldn't find anything referring to this.

Regards,
Henrik



No, I think you are still confused. It may be easier to share your plan so I/we can look at it and change it.


As for route speed at enter, let me give you an example:

You have 3 blocks in a line. BK1, BK2, BK3. You also have 2 routes. BK1-BK2 and BK2-BK3. BK1-BK2 route speed is 80%. BK2-BK3 is 50%.

Your trains travelling from BK1-BK2 are using speed 80% and in this example continuing to BK3. As the IN sensor is triggered at BK2 it then changes speed to 50% as configured for route BK2-BK3.

However if you have route speed at enter activated, instead of the IN sensor at BK2 triggering the speed change to 50%, the speed will be changed at the ENTER sensor of BK2.

That is how that feature works. It does not suit what you are trying to do. In both cases the speed from BK2-BK3 is 50%, it's just when that speed change is applied. No relationship to wait.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline morsing  
#5 Posted : 11 November 2020 08:53:16(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 565
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

That is how that feature works. It does not suit what you are trying to do. In both cases the speed from BK2-BK3 is 50%, it's just when that speed change is applied. No relationship to wait.


So why have two identical settings, one with the word "wait" in it?

UserPostedImage

I can't find the thread now, but I'm sure I asked about slowing down for a station some years ago and someone posted how to set the slow-down from the previous block if the train was stopping. This is a seriously missing feature if it can't be done.

This means that through trains (still haven't looked at weather through trains are even a possibility, it's not obvious if it is), will also slow down.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 15 November 2020 06:23:54(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

That is how that feature works. It does not suit what you are trying to do. In both cases the speed from BK2-BK3 is 50%, it's just when that speed change is applied. No relationship to wait.


So why have two identical settings, one with the word "wait" in it?

UserPostedImage

I can't find the thread now, but I'm sure I asked about slowing down for a station some years ago and someone posted how to set the slow-down from the previous block if the train was stopping. This is a seriously missing feature if it can't be done.

This means that through trains (still haven't looked at weather through trains are even a possibility, it's not obvious if it is), will also slow down.

Regards,
Henrik




Your image link does not work. I don't understand what you mean that two settings are identical one with 'wait'? Please clarify what you are referring to.


Trains slow down for a station because they reach the enter sensor and start slowing. I can only see this is a problem if you do not have an appropriate enter sensor.

If I understand what you are trying to do, that is a standard setup but it's not working for you because your block sensors are not appropriate.

If a train has to stop in a block then the enter sensor (which should be at the start of the block, ie. 2m from the IN sensor) is triggered and they decelerate as per BBT settings and there is plenty of time before reaching the IN sensor.

If your block is really short and there is not enough length between Enter and In, then you configure the route to that block (or you can configure block speed) at mid speed instead of cruise.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline morsing  
#7 Posted : 15 November 2020 09:14:42(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 565
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi Applor,

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post


Your image link does not work.


My image link works fine, someone in another post made a comment about "Downloading my image" but there is nothing I can do about that. I have just grepped through my webserver logs and there are only successful requests, including people from this forum. It will be down to the forum software if it won't let you see the image. Webmaster?

Here it is if you want to manually copy it in to your browser: http://www.morsing.cc/Trains/Speed_for_wait.jpg

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

I don't understand what you mean that two settings are identical one with 'wait'? Please clarify what you are referring to.


As per above image.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

Trains slow down for a station because they reach the enter sensor and start slowing. I can only see this is a problem if you do not have an appropriate enter sensor.


It is also a problem if you want realism.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

If I understand what you are trying to do, that is a standard setup but it's not working for you because your block sensors are not appropriate.


My block sensors are setup as per RocRail Wiki recommendations.

Here is my plan: http://www.morsing.cc/Trains/RocRail/plan.xml

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

If a train has to stop in a block then the enter sensor (which should be at the start of the block, ie. 2m from the IN sensor) is triggered and they decelerate as per BBT settings and there is plenty of time before reaching the IN sensor.


Not if you want realism.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

If your block is really short and there is not enough length between Enter and In, then you configure the route to that block (or you can configure block speed) at mid speed instead of cruise.


I would estimate 99.9% of model railway blocks are "really short".

And yes, I can configure the block or route to be permanently Vmid but it would cover all trains, even freight trains. I also have a small station on my layout were I don't want intercity trains to stop at all (is that even possible? EDIT: It is, the "Type" section under block "Details" slight oddly links to "Wait") and I don't want them to slow down either.

Regards,
Henrik

P.S. On this page:

https://wiki.rocrail.net...ku.php?id=route-speed-en

it says:

"Speed for wait

Alternative route speed is used if the train must stop in the to block of the route, whether due to block option 'wait' or red signal.
This speed should be lower than the normal route or block speed and can be used, if the distance to the "Enter" of the destination block is not long enough,
to reach the normal speed in the acceleration phase."

Which is a slightly odd example of when you would want to use it, however, it doesn't take away from the fact that the alternate route speed is for when "wait" is set in the block, which I have.
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline morsing  
#8 Posted : 15 November 2020 09:52:46(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 565
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
P.P.S. Could the problem be that if the wait block is the detination for the route, it is not seen as "wait" but "stop" or "end" of some sort?
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline applor  
#9 Posted : 16 November 2020 00:59:28(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
What you can do is have 2 routes. 1st route is for the preceeding block to the station block (ie. BK1 to BK2) and have it set to V_mid.

You then have a second route which is the preceeding block and then the block after the station (ie. BK1 to BK3) and have it set to V_cruise. The station block is configured as a crossing block.

You then use route permissions so freight and express trains can only use the 2nd route and everything else (that will be stopping) use the 1st route. You set the block to wait so you know they will always be stopping.


That is what I do on my layout. Also with multiple station tracks you will have turnouts set to curve so with 'reduce speed' enabled the trains will correctly slow to V_mid for those routes too.

In my experience Rocrail usually has more than one way of doing something, rather than missing a feature.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by applor
Offline applor  
#10 Posted : 16 November 2020 01:04:03(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
P.P.S. Could the problem be that if the wait block is the detination for the route, it is not seen as "wait" but "stop" or "end" of some sort?


If you have the block set to must wait, then this should be working. Remember route speed overrides block speed so you need route set to use block speed or configure the route to use speed for wait.

https://wiki.rocrail.net...-speed-en#speed_for_wait

If you believe it should be working and isn't, that is what Rocrail forums are for - post your plan/ini and explain expected behaviour and what is actually happening.
Using virtual sensors it is easy to test and they will either tell you what you have done wrong or will fix the bug in next release.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline morsing  
#11 Posted : 23 November 2020 09:33:38(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 565
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
What you can do is have 2 routes. 1st route is for the preceeding block to the station block (ie. BK1 to BK2) and have it set to V_mid.

You then have a second route which is the preceeding block and then the block after the station (ie. BK1 to BK3) and have it set to V_cruise. The station block is configured as a crossing block.

You then use route permissions so freight and express trains can only use the 2nd route and everything else (that will be stopping) use the 1st route. You set the block to wait so you know they will always be stopping.

[...]


Thanks applor,

I spent the little spare time I had last week setting up by-pass routes and also setup some actual schedules to use for tetsing rather than random running around.

I think I was so annoyed trying to get "Speed for wait" working that I didn't think of by-passing it all together. It seems to work with your suggested method :-)

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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