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Offline Seggl  
#1 Posted : 01 October 2020 02:12:29(UTC)
Seggl

United States   
Joined: 01/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Oregon, Hillsboro
Dear Forum,
I have a question regarding my Z scale ICE (Marklin #88713). I got this train from my uncle who had it for at least 10-15 years in storage. It's in like new condition and wasn't running much. I started playing with Marklin Z December last year with a starter set (81701), track extension set (8191) and a nice electric BR189 RTC loco (88194). So my Z experience is non existent, so far everything is analog, I consider myself a beginner coming from H0 (analog/digital collection).
The ICE didn't run very well which was expected due to the long time untouched in it's box.
I took the engine cart completely apart, removed all moving parts including the motor and cleaned everything. Motor shaft and gears got a tiny hint of Marklin oil. I cleaned all cars and oiled according manual, again only a tiny hint. Wheels and tracks are clean.
After the maintenance the engine cart runs like a charm....but it runs too good. The wheels spin through as if the cars would be too heavy or stuck. Both is not the case, they run smooth and feel ok.
Do you have experience with such issues and how would you try to fix this?
This ICE is driven by one motorized car in the middle (restaurant car).
If I wouldn't know better I'd say the track is oily but I cleaned it and all wheels with alcohol and the other trains run ok. Is it possible to add traction tires and is this a good idea? The power is not taken with the driven wheels.
Thanks for your ideas.

Best Regards
Tobias
Offline Zme  
#2 Posted : 01 October 2020 19:25:07(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: West Texas
Hello

That is a great set, I have the 88715 version, but it is very similar. While it seems like an old set, it really hasn’t been around that long. I have a loco which I purchased new in about 1985 and it is still running strong. That is one thing about these jewels, the keep running and running. I am sure you will get this set working too.

I had some initial impressions about what you describe, could you tell me if anything has changed with the track? Does the engine move at all, in a different position on the track? Does the engine make a whirring noise in any track location? On this model, the connection must be made with all carriages connected in the correct order. I refer to the photo on the box and connect the cars in the same order, or refer to the owners manual. Lacking a photo or the manual, you could connect them in the order they are packaged in the tray. When the engine is running, can you actually see if the wheels are also moving? Does the engine fail to run on a tight curve? This set has a minimum radius limit but I am not certain what it is.

I applaud your diving into the basic maintenance on this set. Some are not eager to work on the z scale trains.

If you could take it apart again, I would check for a missing gear at the top of one or both of the trucks. Or perhaps the axle is not inserted straight and is not aligning this top gear. It is also possible one of the other truck gears are missing. The top gear could also be damaged. Inspect the parts. If this gear is missing on one of the trucks, the engine will not move with the other properly assembled truck.

I could not find a spare part list or diagram for your exact model, but did find a diagram for 88714. Check if this is similar to yours.

https://www.maerklin.de/...lnummer=88714&lang=2

The part damaged or missing could be #21 or #22.

The parts are real small for these z scale units. It is easy to drop a part and not realize it. I have had this experience myself.

Best wishes

Dwight







Offline Seggl  
#3 Posted : 03 October 2020 19:12:25(UTC)
Seggl

United States   
Joined: 01/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Oregon, Hillsboro
Dear Dwight,

thank you for your answer and ideas and apologies for my delayed answer. I had written the question many months ago in another forum and never got an answer, so I copied it and posted here after finding this great forum. I had to double check to make sure I'm providing correct accurate information.
I took it apart one more time and double checked, all parts are correct in place and perform excellent. This train was not running much before I got it, the gears look like new and everything is very clean inside. I connected the car that contains the motor on the bench to a power supply and can confirm all driven axles are going strong. It also sounds good to me. No weird noise, just like a healthy DC motor.
I set up some tracks, triple checked all connections are nice and smooth and cleaned the top with some isopropyl alcohol to exclude any oil/grease on the tracks. The wheels of the cars were cleaned before using alcohol and Q-tips.
I connected the train and did some more tests.

Here are my observations:

- The train doesn't start moving at all until I reach about 150 on the Marklin controller, the scale goes up to 200. This is true in both directions. The lights come on much earlier <== is this normal?

- when it starts I need to accelerate very slow otherwise the wheels on the motor car skid.

- I have the impression it should run more smooth when the train runs full speed. This might be just my lack of z-scale experience...to my ears it sounds like the engine car is pushing very hard but the other cars have too much friction or slow it down for other reasons...but like I wrote before, that might be my wrong expectation how it should be.

- I had run all cars individual by hand to check for any resistance but can't find any issues. The axles are seated correct and the cars run smooth. The first and last car seem to be a little lighter and feel not as smooth as the others, I think this is normal as both do it and it's not bad. If I push them and let them go I noticed they stop a few inches earlier....again, I don't think this is an issue.

- The only other locos I have in z-scale are the little Class 89 steam engine from the starter set and the BR189...both hard to compare to the ICE, both start moving at muuuch lower setting on the Marklin controller and they respond much more accurate.....hard to compare...I just have the 2 cars from the set.

This is what I plan on doing next:

- measure the output of the little Marklin controller and check how many volts are on the track when the train starts to move.
- connect the motor car to my lab power supply directly and check if it does the same or if it starts running with lower voltage...just to see if there is higher resistance and the voltage drops too much on the motor.
- depending on the result measure from the track to the last coupling before the motor car to see how much resistance there is.


I'm open for any new ideas, maybe I miss something obvious, maybe it's all normal and I just don't know better. Keep in mind I'm coming from Marklin H0 and z-scale is new to me.


Thanks for your help.

Best Regards
Tobias
Offline Zme  
#4 Posted : 04 October 2020 00:52:14(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: West Texas
Hello

I was under the impression this unit was not working at all.

My ICE4 had the new bell motor. It starts very smoothly and quietly. But I do notice it works better in one direction rather than the other. I have noticed, running seems better when going in the direction of the arrow underneath on the frame.

When the engine was apart, were you able to verify the condition of the motor brushes? Removing/cleaning the brushes may help. If that 88714 is the same, looks like you have a five pole motor. The motor may need service or replacement. After running, does it seem to get excessively hot? I recently observed the carbon missing on a 212 engine I recently purchased off of EBay. One side had no carbon and the engine still ran. Guess it was running off the holder

Could you tell me what the condition of the coach connectors is? Perhaps there is a contact issue between the coaches. If yours is similar, the connectors have an impact on how it runs. I had problems with it working and stopping at various track points until l replaced these contacts. (#14 on the engine diagram.) The connectors must be in top condition, no bends and without the copper coming loose etc. These could interfere with smooth operation of the string of cars. On mine, I have to have all the coaches connected correctly and in the correct order. Have you noticed it stop in one direction but the lights still come on?

You likely have LED lights and they light earlier, perhaps before movement is observed.

Some of the z scale engines are louder than others. Some start earlier than others and I am not certain why. The brushes on the 5 pole does not allow much adjustments but sometimes I think the amount of pressure the brushes exert cause it to be louder. Quiet and slowness are always a goal when servicing these, but a one hour break in run is commonly recommended. Seems when the brushes get broken in, they are quieter. I notice a difference between running with the shell off and with it in place. It acts like an echo chamber. The 3 pole motors and not as quiet in my opinion and may not start as early as a 5 pole. Do you get any slow speed operation?

I have a certain amount of resonance from my track. Is the basic Marklin circle track being used? What is your track setup?

Don’t know if I have helped much. It is a puzzle I will have think about. Let’s us know the results of your observations.

Best wishes

Dwight

Offline Carim  
#5 Posted : 04 October 2020 12:02:30(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: London
Hi,

From what you have written, I would suspect that there is something wrong with the bogies on the cab cars - I would check that there is no obvious flash on the moulding, then how the bogie sits on the track (is part of the body rubbing on it?) and finally check that all the axels are in gauge.

Have you tried just running the restaurant car with just one cab car (I think this is the minimum set-up you need for it to run)? Is the performance different than with the entire train coupled up?

The start up at "150" seems rather high but it might improve after a lot of running in.

Carim
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#6 Posted : 04 October 2020 16:11:05(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 270
Location: England, Cambridge
I think one thing that has been widely reported is the amount of variation between the running characteristics of different examples even of the same model. (I have several 88942/3 steam locos and they all behave differently!)

One characteristic I have noticed with bogie locomotives is that if you bring the loco to a halt an then apply power in the opposite direction, looking and listening carefully, you will notice the bogies move slightly as the slack in the gearing is taken up. You have to then apply more power until the loco will start to move again.

Finally in the numerous time I have disassembled/reassembled this type of locomotive I have noticed that the tension of the screws fixing the top shell of the chassis (items 11 and 10 respectively on the exploded drawing) can have a dramatic effect on the slow speed operation of the loco. Usually I find the less tension the better - just enough to feel the screw start to "bite".

Hope that's some help.


Chris
Offline Seggl  
#7 Posted : 12 October 2020 05:12:37(UTC)
Seggl

United States   
Joined: 01/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Oregon, Hillsboro
Thanks for all the advice, I had to leave for an emergency business trip and had no chance to test further.
I will as soon as I have a chance.

Thanks a lot for your ideas.

Tobias
Offline husafreak  
#8 Posted : 15 October 2020 04:11:44(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 232
Location: California, Bay Area
150 on the dial of a Marklin controller is a lot to get a loco running. But it sounds like you have a traction issue? This is not unusual for a Marklin loco but since the ICE train is engineered to run as a unit it should go! I'm looking forward to the solution, which you will find I'm sure. Maybe put some weight on that motor car and see what happens?
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#9 Posted : 15 October 2020 21:49:16(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 270
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
But it sounds like you have a traction issue? This is not unusual for a Marklin loco but since the ICE train is engineered to run as a unit it should go! I'm looking forward to the solution, which you will find I'm sure.


I have no experience of this model, but it's quite a long unit and with a metal chassis, so I'd expect it to have more weight (and traction) than most. On the other hand, the pick-up arrangement on coaches does add quite a lot of friction. As someone suggested, it would be instructive to run it with just one or two coaches.

Cheers


Chris
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