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Offline bugsmasher  
#1 Posted : 20 September 2016 21:19:10(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Location: Michigan, Canton
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?

Decoders (e.g. ESU V4.0 M4) seem more advanced than even the newest controllers.

Example: I am unable to address F16-F26 (including several interesting sounds) of a recently purchased Lok (DB BR 141, Piko 51519) with either MS2 or CS2.
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 20 September 2016 22:47:51(UTC)
H0


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I assume that DCC will be limited to 29 functions per address - but I could be wrong as DCC supports more than 10000 functions per address.

mfx will support 32 functions per address.

MM is limited to 5 functions per address. This limit will not change. However there could be support for more than 2 MM addresses per loco to get more than 9 functions, but I don't think we'll see that. All decoders with more than 9 functions also support DCC or mfx.

My Central Station 60212 already supports 29 functions per DCC address. Nice for ESU or Piko locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline bugsmasher  
#3 Posted : 20 September 2016 23:49:12(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


mfx will support 32 functions per address.



The question is not how many functions the protocol (e.g. mfx) is theoretically capable of addressing, but instead how many functions the CS3/CS3+ controller is capable of easily addressing. The photographs we have seen have displayed a screen with (for a particular Lok or decoder, one side of the screen) at most two rows of 8 touch-sensitive buttons suggesting that the controller (unless equipped with some kind of shift key or button) will be able to address only 16 functions.

The CS2 (also based on mfx) had 8 keys (plus a shift key) for a total of 16 functions/active decoder. Similarly, the MS2 had 4 keys (plus a shift key) for a total of 16 functions.

Said another way, the question is whether the controller will be able to use the full capability of the protocol. Any controller unable to easily trigger all the sounds and capabilities of the decoder from F16 and beyond would be inherently limited. All the current Marklin controllers seem limited (at least by easy key press) to F0 - F15. The advertising of 32 addressable functions would be a little misleading or exaggerating if only F0 - F15 can be addressed easily.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 21 September 2016 06:52:21(UTC)
H0


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With Märklin much technical information is clear as mud.

There are new items with 20 functions and the catalogue indicates that all functions can be used with the CS3.

The CS2 can control 29 DCC functions internally. The user just cannot access them on the GUI.
There are 8 function keys, no shift key yet. 16 symbols on the touch screen. Maybe a Shift key will come to support 32 functions.

The MS2 has 8 function keys and a shift key. Rumours say it might support 32 functions in the future. Maybe they'll change the mode of the shift key.

Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Any controller unable to easily trigger all the sounds and capabilities of the decoder from F16 and beyond would be inherently limited.
Hear, hear!
The product description for the CS2 reads: "Now with complete DCC functionality too."
Access to F16 and above is limited, addresses above 9999 are not supported.
The "Definition of Done" and the "Definition of Complete" vary from person to person. LOL
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 21 September 2016 07:25:31(UTC)
clapcott

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
The photographs we have seen have displayed a screen with (for a particular Lok or decoder, one side of the screen) at most two rows of 8

Images can be found with 3 rows of 8

Quote:
The advertising of 32 addressable functions would be a little misleading or exaggerating if only F0 - F15 can be addressed easily.

Depends on you perspective.

Marketing regularly make statements in a way that let the reader infer something that is not necessarily true or ever likely to be.
Marklin is no different and you can find plenty of recent examples where the stated marketing is blatantly wrong, and has never been corrected when found out.

Simply because a consumer may reasonably expect an image/description that is seen against an item in a product database to be an "accurate representation" does not mean it will be.

Edited by user 21 September 2016 10:51:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#6 Posted : 21 September 2016 09:17:52(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?

Decoders (e.g. ESU V4.0 M4) seem more advanced than even the newest controllers.

Example: I am unable to address F16-F26 (including several interesting sounds) of a recently purchased Lok (DB BR 141, Piko 51519) with either MS2 or CS2.


Märklins new CS3 and plus will accept decoder more than 16 functions,since CS3 and plus do support 32 functions in both mfx,M4 and DCC.

Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 21 September 2016 11:01:08(UTC)
clapcott

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Any controller unable to easily trigger all the sounds and capabilities of the decoder from F16 and beyond would be inherently limited.
Hear, hear!


Lets get realistic here!

Do you really want to remember which function button to push for 1 of 8 passenger conversations ?
And do it all again for a different set of function IDs on a different loco ?

Wouldn't it be more user friendly and less geeky to have a popup that lists the 8 sounds (with meaningful description) and have the underlying software do the magic of encoding 3 bits followed by a play command.

Further, the controller could be set to randomly play a conversation each time a single button is pressed.

This one button = one function is just nonsense - why do you think the CS3 has got rid of the button constraint
The published CS2 architecture for function commands does not limited a function to just On/Off, it is just that no one (Marklin anyway) has deployed a non-binary solution (yet)
Peter
Offline bugsmasher  
#8 Posted : 21 September 2016 15:28:06(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Any controller unable to easily trigger all the sounds and capabilities of the decoder from F16 and beyond would be inherently limited.
Hear, hear!


Lets get realistic here!

Do you really want to remember which function button to push for 1 of 8 passenger conversations ?
And do it all again for a different set of function IDs on a different loco ?


Yes, let us be more realistic and more charitable. Marklin is a great company and the CS3/CS3+ (more so the CS2) are great products. That's why we have this forum, and why I have ordered a CS3+. My guess is that the move by decoder manufacturers to use functions beyond F15 occurred after Marklin had settled the nature of its graphical user interface (GUI). If there is an inherent limitation, it is an understandable one in an environment of fast-moving technology.

But software interface problems and limitations can have significant practical and commercial consequences. The real issue is the capability of the interface (means of control, the product's primary purpose). In my personal case, my locomotive decoder has some sounds that are very attractive for simulating realistic operation but fall within the F16 and beyond range which I so far cannot easily address. Only one practical limitation, but important to one customer (or to other ESU/Piko users as well). Commercially, just ask the millions of users who are dissatisfied with the new but radically changed Windows 10 interface -- or the other millions of non-customers because of those changes. Or the Ford Motor Company which between 2010-2011 saw its delivery quality ratings fall from 5th to 23rd (with presumably lost sales), spent millions of dollars on software updates, and was eventually forced to change software entirely because of defects in its Ford Touch system for controlling vehicle functions.

In other threads on this forum, commenters have stated that Mr. Sieber of Marklin delayed release of the CS3/CS3+ as long as possible to avoid/minimize software problems and updates. If so, that was a wise decision.

Hopefully, some astute person from Marklin regularly reads this forum and notices and accounts for comments like this. That's one way a company maintains its leadership position. Marklin still occupies that position. it's no accident that many or most of the major developments in model railroad control in the last 30 years have been associated with Marklin.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 21 September 2016 21:05:31(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Do you really want to remember which function button to push for 1 of 8 passenger conversations?
Let's stick to CS2 and MS2: there are 8 physical buttons.
It would be nice if I could select any function (F0 through F28/F31) for any of those physical buttons.

I think the Z21 app works like that - no physical buttons, but any button on the screen can trigger any function.

Not all 29 functions are interesting, but probably there are interesting functions at F16 and above.


Both MS2 and CS2 can be used together with CS3/CS3+ and it would be nice to have all 29/32 functions with any controller on the layout.
Time will tell what the user experience will be like.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 21 September 2016 21:42:40(UTC)
Minok

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Whether there are physical buttons or touch screen virtual buttons doesn't affect what the software can do with a button press. In both cases, the software can display a meaningful label next to the button and the act in some way and display new labels.

So one could have a sound button, when pressed, drills down and relabels the buttons to then let you pick WHICH SOUND.
Likewise, the software could allow for configuration: you pick, per loco or for all, which button/options you want to have directly driven at the top level buttons, and which others may drill down into menus. Its a software constrained problem - so what Märklin has done with the CS3 software will determine what we get out of the box. And that can be upgraded.

The long time users of Märklin products likely know better what the company is likely to do; just because one can, doesn't mean corporate culture would allow it to happen.

I'm going to be optimistic that the CS3+ is a controller worth getting and by the time I get to finishing my layout to actually need one, the CS3's will have some time out on the market and we'll know. If not, I can always go with 3rd party interfaces to just use the computer to control the layout, rather than through a Märklin product to use the computer to control the layout.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 23 September 2016 03:46:12(UTC)
clapcott

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
... and more charitable.


I am at odds with calling Marklin a charity,
however asking your original question here, rather than giving Marklin first right of reply, does appear to lack a bit of courtesy.

Why you would expect anyone other than Marklin to know any unpublished details about an undelivered product is beyond me.
Peter
Offline bugsmasher  
#12 Posted : 23 September 2016 19:52:27(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
... and more charitable.


I am at odds with calling Marklin a charity,
however asking your original question here, rather than giving Marklin first right of reply, does appear to lack a bit of courtesy.

Why you would expect anyone other than Marklin to know any unpublished details about an undelivered product is beyond me.


Charitable as in tolerant, considerate, even loving. It is not Marklin that needs to be charitable but we users. Though I have pointed out a potential limitation in one product in the hope that someone will have better knowledge and everyone will evaluate the full capability of their CS3/CS3+, I stand by my statement that Marklin is a great company. My intent is not to be harsh but to identify a characteristic that users need to notice and evaluate. Yes, my posted question is premature, but there are a few modelers out there who have seen the actual product. I hope this question will be conclusively answered when the CS3/CS3+ are reviewed on this forum.

For my own layout, I have standardized on Marklin for purposes of control, trackwork (even the oft-maligned C-track) and most of my locomotives. I am still undecided about signals, but presume Marklin. But as to locomotives and rolling stock Marklin is being strongly challenged by other manufacturers such as ESU, Brawa, and Piko. Their decoders, tooling or pricing are often as good as Marklin or better.

Offline bugsmasher  
#13 Posted : 09 October 2016 03:25:09(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?


I'm pleased to report that Marklin seems to have foreseen and prevented the problem.
Page 9 of the new CS3+ manual shows a diagram with the following notation:

"Ziehen Sie die roten Kreis mit kleiner weißer Lok in Richtung Bildschirmmitte: Die Lok-Funktionen werden sichtbar, acht Funktionen pro Spalte. Je nachdem, wie weit Sie die List aufziehen, können bis zu 32 Functionen auf einmal dargestellt werden."

English: If you drag the red circle (dot) with the small white locomotive in the direction of the middle of the screen: the locomotive functions will be visible , 8 functions per column. Depending on how far you drag the list, up to 32 functions can be displayed at the same time.

The diagram shows a display of two columns of eight functions together with a finger dragging a red dot/white locomotive symbol from left to right. Comparable diagrams are displayed for each of the two locomotives (left control, right control) that are active at the same time.

I have not received my new CS3+ yet, but this manual suggests there is no problem unless somehow the controller software cannot display more than 16 functions for mfx even though the screen is more capable, that is that the 32-function display is limited to DCC.

Additional Note: The (in)famous and easily lost Marklin plastic stylus seems to be gone, replaced by the human finger. But most modelers will probably want to use a third-party capacitative stylus anyway to keep the screen clean. But at least the screen can by operated if a stylus is lost or unavailable.

Good design, Marklin!
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 10 October 2016 13:56:19(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?


I'm pleased to report that Marklin seems to have foreseen and prevented the problem.
Page 9 of the new CS3+ manual shows a diagram with the following notation:

"Ziehen Sie die roten Kreis mit kleiner weißer Lok in Richtung Bildschirmmitte: Die Lok-Funktionen werden sichtbar, acht Funktionen pro Spalte. Je nachdem, wie weit Sie die List aufziehen, können bis zu 32 Functionen auf einmal dargestellt werden."

English: If you drag the red circle (dot) with the small white locomotive in the direction of the middle of the screen: the locomotive functions will be visible , 8 functions per column. Depending on how far you drag the list, up to 32 functions can be displayed at the same time.

The diagram shows a display of two columns of eight functions together with a finger dragging a red dot/white locomotive symbol from left to right. Comparable diagrams are displayed for each of the two locomotives (left control, right control) that are active at the same time.

I have not received my new CS3+ yet, but this manual suggests there is no problem unless somehow the controller software cannot display more than 16 functions for mfx even though the screen is more capable, that is that the 32-function display is limited to DCC.

Additional Note: The (in)famous and easily lost Marklin plastic stylus seems to be gone, replaced by the human finger. But most modelers will probably want to use a third-party capacitative stylus anyway to keep the screen clean. But at least the screen can by operated if a stylus is lost or unavailable.

Good design, Marklin!


IIRC this was demonstrated in Marklins release video around this time last year when the cs3 was first announced.

Hence my wondering what all the yelling and shouting is about, quite obviously, right from the inception, the cs3 has the capability to handle up to 32 functions on any protocol that can handle up to 32 functions.

I believe a similar sliding icon screen will be added to the cs2 so that it can handle 32 functions, without the icons taking up a large amount of screen space. There is nothing to stop the cs2 having a similar sliding icon screen apart from some new programming downloaded in an update.

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User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#15 Posted : 10 October 2016 19:14:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Märklins/Trix new "Challenger" do have 28 functions and it´s an mfx+/DCC sound decoder.
That means CS3 and CS3+ do accept with mfx+,M4 and DCC over 16 functions.
Even with ESU digital locomotives M4/DCC more than 16 functions works with all functions with the CS3 and CS3+.
Offline bugsmasher  
#16 Posted : 11 October 2016 00:03:20(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Location: Michigan, Canton


IIRC this was demonstrated in Marklins release video around this time last year when the cs3 was first announced.

Hence my wondering what all the yelling and shouting is about, quite obviously, right from the inception, the cs3 has the capability to handle up to 32 functions on any protocol that can handle up to 32 functions.

I believe a similar sliding icon screen will be added to the cs2 so that it can handle 32 functions, without the icons taking up a large amount of screen space. There is nothing to stop the cs2 having a similar sliding icon screen apart from some new programming downloaded in an update.



Post video, or link to video?

Offline Crazy Harry  
#17 Posted : 11 October 2016 02:00:11(UTC)
Crazy Harry

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Link to video: CS3/CS3+ Introductory Video sliding icons shown at 1:30 forward.
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Offline bugsmasher  
#18 Posted : 11 October 2016 03:04:25(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Originally Posted by: Crazy Harry Go to Quoted Post
Link to video: CS3/CS3+ Introductory Video sliding icons shown at 1:30 forward.


The video shows 20 active function buttons at 1:30 and 23 active function buttons ( of a total of 24) at 1:58. If I had seen this video, I probably would not have started this thread.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#19 Posted : 11 October 2016 05:40:41(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Crazy Harry Go to Quoted Post
Link to video: CS3/CS3+ Introductory Video sliding icons shown at 1:30 forward.


The video shows 20 active function buttons at 1:30 and 23 active function buttons ( of a total of 24) at 1:58. If I had seen this video, I probably would not have started this thread.


The video shows an exemple with locomotive totaly function,so the sliding icons present of the locomotive.
When you have two diffferent locomotive the first present only 7 functions,the sliding function present only 7 functions,while the second locomotive present 23 functions,the sliding icons shows 23 functions.

Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 11 October 2016 08:29:33(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Hence my wondering what all the yelling and shouting is about, quite obviously, right from the inception, the cs3 has the capability to handle up to 32 functions on any protocol that can handle up to 32 functions.
The protocols that can handle up to 32 functions are mfx and mfx+ - and the CS3 will support 32 functions with those right from the start.

But how about ESU decoders? Those may require a firmware upgrade to get more than 16 functions with the CS3.

How about DCC? It supports up to 16383 functions per address, but the CS3 may be limited to 29 functions per address. 29 out of 16383 ain't bad. The UI of the CS2 was limited to 16 functions and they called that "complete DCC functionality." LOL

How about MM? I guess the CS3 will still support 9 functions per loco, using 2 addresses.

It still would be nice if the functions could be re-arranged in the controller on a per-loco basis to have the most-frequently used functions in the first column.

There is still a lot room for speculation. And things might become better with future CS3 upgrades.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#21 Posted : 11 October 2016 09:22:21(UTC)
Goofy


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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

The UI of the CS2 was limited to 16 functions and they called that "complete DCC functionality." LOL


CS2 do only have 16 functions for both mfx and DCC.

Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 11 October 2016 10:27:10(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
CS2 do only have 16 functions for both mfx and DCC.
CS2 supports 29 functions for DCC using e.g. PC control.
The Track Format Processor can handle 29 DCC functions, the GUI cannot. At least not yet.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline bugsmasher  
#23 Posted : 22 November 2016 17:08:17(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?

Decoders (e.g. ESU V4.0 M4) seem more advanced than even the newest controllers.

Example: I am unable to address F16-F26 (including several interesting sounds) of a recently purchased Lok (DB BR 141, Piko 51519) with either MS2 or CS2.


Unfortunately, I must report that, at least for the ESU Loksound V 4.0 M4 decoder (Piko 56346), while the CS3 Plus automatically registered the decoder (like a Marklin mfx) it did NOT read addressable functions beyond F15. Thus the CS3 Plus appears to read only 16 addressable functions like the former MS2 and CS2. The Piko 56346 decoder contains 11 additional functions (mostly sounds) in F15-F26. Perhaps the CS3 would respond differently for a Marklin decoder or with updated software. In any event, this is a problem Marklin should address.
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Offline bugsmasher  
#24 Posted : 22 November 2016 20:23:34(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Location: Michigan, Canton
Has anyone had ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with CS3/CS3+ and Marklin 39911 "Challenger"? How many functions could the CS3/CS3+ address?
Offline kiwiAlan  
#25 Posted : 22 November 2016 22:23:56(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?

Decoders (e.g. ESU V4.0 M4) seem more advanced than even the newest controllers.

Example: I am unable to address F16-F26 (including several interesting sounds) of a recently purchased Lok (DB BR 141, Piko 51519) with either MS2 or CS2.


Unfortunately, I must report that, at least for the ESU Loksound V 4.0 M4 decoder (Piko 56346), while the CS3 Plus automatically registered the decoder (like a Marklin mfx) it did NOT read addressable functions beyond F15. Thus the CS3 Plus appears to read only 16 addressable functions like the former MS2 and CS2. The Piko 56346 decoder contains 11 additional functions (mostly sounds) in F15-F26. Perhaps the CS3 would respond differently for a Marklin decoder or with updated software. In any event, this is a problem Marklin should address.


I doubt this is a marklin problem. It is an ESU problem, they need to understand how marklin code the extra functions above 15 in the mfx data exchange. It may be that in a year or so ESU will have a software update for the decoder that will allow the mfx protocol to know about the extra functions.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#26 Posted : 22 November 2016 22:26:25(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone had ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with CS3/CS3+ and Marklin 39911 "Challenger"? How many functions could the CS3/CS3+ address?


The challenger is not shipping yet, Marklin had one in a showcase at the Cologne show, but not operational. I did not try any of the cs3 units available for playing, but they all seemed to be set up with the standard shop display stand that Marklin has and supplies to shops for people to try out the cs3.
Offline bugsmasher  
#27 Posted : 23 November 2016 01:04:43(UTC)
bugsmasher

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Location: Michigan, Canton


I doubt this is a marklin problem. It is an ESU problem, they need to understand how marklin code the extra functions above 15 in the mfx data exchange. It may be that in a year or so ESU will have a software update for the decoder that will allow the mfx protocol to know about the extra functions.



This is a very interesting response. I was unaware that decoder software could be updated. Doesn't the decoder circuitry need to be changed? It doesn't seem likely that Marklin would be willing to reveal its software coding.

Sure would be nice if the manufacturers would cooperate more and compete less.Bored Unclear whether this problem will ever be solved.
Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 23 November 2016 08:36:15(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I doubt this is a marklin problem. It is an ESU problem, they need to understand how marklin code the extra functions above 15 in the mfx data exchange.
Will Märklin document how they did it? Will ESU have to rely on "reverse engineering"?
Tams, Viessmann, and Uhlenbrock have some sort of mfx support (delivered or announced) and face the same "problem".

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#29 Posted : 23 November 2016 23:30:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


I doubt this is a marklin problem. It is an ESU problem, they need to understand how marklin code the extra functions above 15 in the mfx data exchange. It may be that in a year or so ESU will have a software update for the decoder that will allow the mfx protocol to know about the extra functions.



This is a very interesting response. I was unaware that decoder software could be updated. Doesn't the decoder circuitry need to be changed? It doesn't seem likely that Marklin would be willing to reveal its software coding.

Sure would be nice if the manufacturers would cooperate more and compete less.Bored Unclear whether this problem will ever be solved.


The ESU decoders have always had updatable software, and the sound files can be changed and updated as well in the sound decoders - just like the new Marklin mld3/msd3 decoders. But just like the Marklin decoders require the Marklin decoder programmer, the ESU decoders require the ESU Lokprogrammer to do the update.

It will take them a little while to get their update sorted out, but they do have a head start as they had the original implementation of the mfx protocol, but they will still need to figure out what changes Marklin have made over time to fix bugs as well as sort out the extra functions being handled in mfx.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Surge  
#30 Posted : 15 October 2020 02:44:33(UTC)
Surge

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Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
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Location: NYC
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bugsmasher Go to Quoted Post
Will all protocols of the new CS3/CS3+ be able to address 32 functions, or only DCC?

Decoders (e.g. ESU V4.0 M4) seem more advanced than even the newest controllers.

Example: I am unable to address F16-F26 (including several interesting sounds) of a recently purchased Lok (DB BR 141, Piko 51519) with either MS2 or CS2.


Unfortunately, I must report that, at least for the ESU Loksound V 4.0 M4 decoder (Piko 56346), while the CS3 Plus automatically registered the decoder (like a Marklin mfx) it did NOT read addressable functions beyond F15. Thus the CS3 Plus appears to read only 16 addressable functions like the former MS2 and CS2. The Piko 56346 decoder contains 11 additional functions (mostly sounds) in F15-F26. Perhaps the CS3 would respond differently for a Marklin decoder or with updated software. In any event, this is a problem Marklin should address.


So how do you access the F15-26 functions with the CS3 and a Loksound decoder?
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline clapcott  
#31 Posted : 15 October 2020 11:04:42(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,361
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
If the Loksound decoder is of a generation where its M4(mfx) only supports 16 functions, then you may set it to DCC and access the higher functions.

The CS3 would also need a Loco definition set for DCC and you may select 8/16/24 function in the process to allow presentation of that many function buttons.

Should you decoder get confused as to which protocol to use with its auto assessment, you might wish to specifically disable the unused/undesired M4 protocol .

Note: Marklin mfx decoders search for protocols in the order of mfx->dcc->MM where as ESU decoders might be DCC->M4->MM.
Note: Marklin mfx decoders search for protocols in the order of mfx->dcc->MM where as ESU decoders might be Railcom+_DCC->mfx->others.[/s]

The issue is that the CS will see and react (switch itself to ) the M4 mode, unless this is specifically disabled in the decoder (or less desirably, in the controller)

Edited by user 16 October 2020 01:57:37(UTC)  | Reason: qualified DCC to be RailCom+ as having preference - see 7.2.4 of user manual

Peter
Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 15 October 2020 12:16:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,817
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Note: Marklin mfx decoders search for protocols in the order of mfx->dcc->MM where as ESU decoders might be DCC->M4->MM.
The priority for ESU decoders is RailCom+ => mfx => all the others (DCC, MM, SX).
To use DCC with a CS3 you must disable mfx in the controller or in the decoder.

Regards
Tom
---
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
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