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Offline John Ferguson  
#1 Posted : 30 December 2018 18:07:15(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
The aim with my layout that has 20 sound equipped locos and over 60 points or turnouts is to run the trains automatically. It is DCC controlled.

While I am comfortable with some manual train movements the layout is too complicated to run all the trains manually.

Recording the movement of trains with the CS3 for automation does not work for me as so much post editing of the recording is required.

This is my solution.

I record 3 speed events for each train without any delay being set. Maximum, normal, and minimum. The idea is that the transition between these fixed speeds will be managed by adjusting the CV for deceleration.

I then record events for start up sounds, stopping the train, turning sounds off, and sounding the horn.

The event for stopping the train in a station consists of the minimum speed with an adjustable delay and the speed zero as a stop command.

The main event to run the train consists of the points, signals set to green, startup sound event with a delay to allow the sounds to play, the track sensor on which the train is located, and the maximum speed event.

The further actions required after the main event are as follows.

An event for normal speed to include the normal sound event and the track sensor in the auto position

An event for minimum speed to include the minimum sound event and the track sensor in the auto position.

An event to stop to include the stop event with a delay plus the sound off event and the reed switch contact in the auto position. Using a reed switch and the adjustable delay in the stop event enables the train to stop exactly as required.

An event to sound the horn to include the horn event and the track sensor in the auto position where you wish the horn to sound on the layout.

The final event is the signals to red event to include the track sensor in the auto position.

I am really very happy now with the CS3 in automation mode.

John
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by John Ferguson
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 30 December 2018 22:18:57(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Hi John

This is very interesting. Thank you

On the other hand, if you are interested with automatic operation (my personal favourite) I think you could use Rocrail to do much more than you can even dream of with the CS3 alone. This is freeware (although, if you are satisfied you can help them with a donation.

All you need is a crossover Ethernet cable to connect your PC to the CS3.
My layout drives approx. 30 trains simultaneously, the turntable, the mashalling yard, the change of loco, the car system, etc. It is fantastic (not my layout but the possibilities offered by Rocrail. The devices like CS3 can only chain commands for a specific loco, where Rocrail can really provide full automation.
You may watch my videos about 100% computerised train control.

Here are two examples:



Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline John Ferguson  
#3 Posted : 30 December 2018 22:49:47(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
On the other hand, if you are interested with automatic operation (my personal favourite) I think you could use Rocrail......


What you have achieved is brilliant. I have RocRail connected to the CS3 but I’m happy with my solution for the CS3.

There would be a big learning curve to use RocRail as well as the fact that my layout was not designed for automation and lacks the number and position of the track sensors that would be needed.

Thank you for your response.

John

Edited by moderator 17 September 2020 13:10:22(UTC)  | Reason: Edited to not include the quoting of entire posts which we don't need to read twice.

Offline John Ferguson  
#4 Posted : 05 January 2019 17:24:31(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Hi Jean

Since you posted your details of your experience with RocRail and the CS3 I have been using RocRail.

It is now connected to the CS3 so that turnouts and locos now operate via RocRail.

What I would like some help with is how to convert the CS3 S88 link addresses to the sensor addresses used by RocRail.

For example take address 3.13 on the CS3. I am using bus 3. This address represents the third of 16 group addresses with 13 the address within the group of 16.

Could you help please as I was so impressed with your use of a RocRail.

John
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 05 January 2019 20:00:09(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,299
Location: Lyon, France
Hello John,

The answer has been posted in Rocrail forum, but you need an account to read it.

Here is an extract:

It is very simple.
You have to add the following information into the interface section of the sensor dialog box (accessible via Menu -> Tables -> Sensors):
Interface-ID: CS2 (no change here)
Bus: <ID-Number of the 60883> (same number as in the CS2 under "Devices" - mine is filed under #124)
Address: <Adress of sensor> (as described in the manual of 60883, starting with 1001 for s88N-bus #1, with 2001 for s88N-Bus #2 and with 3001 for s88-bus #3)


Example, using L88 with address 200, and sensor connected to bus#1, 1st S88, address 4
UserPostedImage

So in your case, put your L88 number in field "bus" instead of mine, and change the "address" field to 3045 (3rd S88 with address 13 : (2x16)+13+3000)

That's it.
Cheers
Fabrice
Offline John Ferguson  
#6 Posted : 05 January 2019 23:25:18(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
The answer has been posted in Rocrail forum, but you need an account to read it.....


Hi Fabrice

That’s a very clear example. I will try it tomorrow.

Thank you for your advice. Much appreciated.

John

Edited by moderator 17 September 2020 13:12:27(UTC)  | Reason: Edited to not include the quoting of entire posts which we don't need to read twice.

Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2019 12:00:12(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Hi John

Fabrice has provided all the answers already.
I use a CS2 with a combination of direct access of flat-cable S88 (6088) and a Link 88 (60883 with new generation of S88 (60881). Rocrail manages its way w/o problems.
Don't forget to declare your CONTROLLER properly. To do this in Rocrail you must go to tab "FILE" then select tab "CONTROLLER" then select your controller and push the "PROPERTIES" button.

The controller must be "MCS2" type (for CS2 and CS3) and
- " SENSORS" must be the total number of S88 modules you have (in my case 9)
- 'SENSOR RANGE" must be left to zero and
- "VERSION" must be set to 3
Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline John Ferguson  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2019 13:00:04(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi John

Fabrice has provided all the answers already.
I use a CS2 with a combination of direct access of flat-cable S88 (6088) and a Link 88 (60883 with new generation of S88 (60881). Rocrail manages its way w/o problems.
Don't forget to declare your CONTROLLER properly. To do this in Rocrail you must go to tab "FILE" then select tab "CONTROLLER" then select your controller and push the "PROPERTIES" button.

The controller must be "MCS2" type (for CS2 and CS3) and
- " SENSORS" must be the total number of S88 modules you have (in my case 9)
- 'SENSOR RANGE" must be left to zero and
- "VERSION" must be set to 3
Cheers

Jean


Thank you Jean. That is most helpful.

I am using the link S88 device switched to 5 volts as my S88 boards are not of recent origin. They are by LTD. Litffinski Datech.

John
Offline French_Fabrice  
#9 Posted : 06 January 2019 14:10:27(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,299
Location: Lyon, France
Hello John,

As you told us you're using LDT devices for feedback (like me), you may know you can use either 5V or 12V, except when using RM-GB-8-N which require 5V.

However, the theory and real life may show some unexpected events...

I tried to use 12V in my previous layout with L88 and RM88N and had many problems.
See :
https://www.marklin-user...I--Playground#post562490
https://www.marklin-user...I--Playground#post562519
https://www.marklin-user...--Playground#post563136.

As a result, stay with 5V, this will avoid problems.

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline John Ferguson  
#10 Posted : 06 January 2019 18:21:34(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hello John,

As you told us you're using LDT devices for feedback (like me), you may know you can use either 5V or 12V, except when using RM-GB-8-N which require 5V.

However, the theory and real life may show some unexpected events...

I tried to use 12V in my previous layout with L88 and RM88N and had many problems.
See :
https://www.marklin-user...I--Playground#post562490
https://www.marklin-user...I--Playground#post562519
https://www.marklin-user...--Playground#post563136.

As a result, stay with 5V, this will avoid problems.

Cheers
Fabrice


Hi Fabrice

I use 5volts and have never had any problems with feedback.

I have entered the address of a sensor in RocRail as suggested. Moving a loco to and from the track section being monitored by the sensor does not change the colour of the sensor on the track plan. Is this correct?

How do I check that the sensor is working?

Regards

John

Offline French_Fabrice  
#11 Posted : 06 January 2019 19:43:42(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,299
Location: Lyon, France
Hi John,

I'm afraid something is wrong somewhere...

1- Set an icon for S88 feedback in the "Layout" Section of the CS, with appropriate address (your L88 DeviceId & 3045)
2- Force the monitored section to "ground", by installing a ground wire to the insulated section
3- The icon of the S88 should have a color different from the others (on my CS2, it becomes yellow when insulated section is grounded)
4- if 3 is successful, then the problem is located at Rocrail, else something is wrong in the tracks. Just in case if 3 is successful, then disable firewall on your PC for the time of a test. It is very common that firewall filters some packets received from the CS. Until so far, you have sent commands from the PC to the CS, but never received some...

Please display some screenshots of:
-Your L88 DeviceId in CS2 (like this)
UserPostedImage

-The amount of S88 devices on bus3 (like this). In your case, you should have a value of at least 3
UserPostedImage
Note: Don't get confused by the #4296 related to the L88. It is some kind of serial number, not a DeviceId. The DeviceId is shown in previous picture.

I found a page on Rocrail wiki (written in German) describing how to setup a L88;
see there: https://wiki.rocrail.net...hten_link-s88_an_cs2_cs3

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline John Ferguson  
#12 Posted : 06 January 2019 21:01:54(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Hi Fabrice

I am using the CS3 plus so the screen is very different. For example the device ID for the link S88 is 2.

The S88 feedback works normally on the track plans of the CS3. Yellow when occupied and grey if not.

I will try the idea of switching off the firewall.

I take it from what you are saying that on the PC using RocRail the icon for the sensor should change colour so far it does not.

I will follow with screen shots later.

Thank you

John
Offline French_Fabrice  
#13 Posted : 06 January 2019 21:40:55(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,299
Location: Lyon, France
OK,
So it's only a matter of configuring rocrail/PC.

Many people having success with rocrail and loks/switches encounter problem when going to S88 feedback.
Most of the time, it's a problem of firewall... Of course, some addresses may be also wrong but with careful checking, you can correct them if needed.

In your case, the "Bus" in Rocrail sensor panel should have "2", and address as already explained.
When the sensor is "on", it becomes RED in Rocrail.

Good luck
Fabrice

Edited by user 07 January 2019 13:57:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline John Ferguson  
#14 Posted : 07 January 2019 17:09:27(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Hi Fabrice

I tried turning off the firewall but this had no effect.

I see on the RocRail site that only the CS2 is supported. I am using the CS3.

All my S88 sensors work on the CS3 and I can change the points and drive locos.

I have come to the conclusion that RocRail as far as sensors are concerned are not supported.

Thank you for your comments and advice.

John
Offline JohnjeanB  
#15 Posted : 07 January 2019 18:11:30(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Hi John

The settings for the CS2 and CS3 are the same I believe.
The sensors are definitly supported by Rocrail.
The communication PC--> CS3 may be working and the other one not so in this case you don't receive any feedback (Sensors, changes made by the CS3 not reported to Rocrail.

Questions:
- when you press the STOP button on your CS3 does it report on your PC?
- when you change a switch using your CS3 does it reports on Rocrail?
- when you change the direction of a loco on your CS3 does it report on Rocrail?

If the answer are NO it means you have no connection CS3-->PC

As a help here are my settings
Configuration Rocrail 08-05-2017

CS2 IP Manuel
IP 192.168.000.103
IP Mask 255.255.255.000
IP-Gateway 192.168.000.001
DNS Server 192.168.000.001
CS2 CAN Broadcast
Ziel-Adresse 192.168.000.255

Rocrail /rocrail/eigenschaften/Zentrale  Adresse 192.168.000.103

PC IPV4 Eigenschaften
Benütze folgende Adresse
IP 192.168.000.101 Note : does not work with 192.168.000.100
IP Mask 255.255.255.000
Default Gateway 192.168.000.001

Use folgende DNS Adresse
192.168.000.001

Hope this will help
Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline French_Fabrice  
#16 Posted : 07 January 2019 19:29:56(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,299
Location: Lyon, France
John,

In addition to what Jean said, check especially the "broadcast" for "CAN".
I've loaded the doc of the CS3, but the CAN icon is not explained even if shown ???

Goto to that section and inspect data: you should have something like "broadcast", and if it exists the IP address of your PC.

Cheers
fabrice
Offline John Ferguson  
#17 Posted : 07 January 2019 22:02:15(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Hi Jean and Fabrice

You are both so helpful.

I will check the connections between the CS3 and the PC tomorrow.

Thanks

John

Offline John Ferguson  
#18 Posted : 10 January 2019 17:53:57(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Essex
Hi Jean and Fabrice

Thanks to you both RocRail and the CS3 are now working together. The sensor monitor is particularly useful to check the working of the sensors.

Many thanks.

John
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by John Ferguson
Offline Gustav  
#19 Posted : 17 September 2020 07:51:00(UTC)
Gustav

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/09/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: den Bosch
Is RocRail capable of dealing with Marklin signals, the 72442 signal decelerations modules, and the fact that a part of the track becomes powerless ?
I tried iTrain but this program expects all the track to be powered all the time, but I would still like to be able to operate the layout using the CS3 alone (without additional software).
Any information on this ?

thanks
Offline JohnjeanB  
#20 Posted : 17 September 2020 12:34:08(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Gustav Go to Quoted Post
Is RocRail capable of dealing with Marklin signals, the 72442 signal decelerations modules, and the fact that a part of the track becomes powerless ?
I tried iTrain but this program expects all the track to be powered all the time, but I would still like to be able to operate the layout using the CS3 alone (without additional software).
Any information on this ?

Hi
Yes Rocrail can drive any type of signals and other digital items BUT Rocrail does not need them (the signals are here for the looks/realism) nor the deceleration modules and their power-controlled sections.
The Rocrail approach is to send digital order to the trains depending where they are (usually using contact rails over the entire length of blocks).
The fantastic result is loads of advantages:
- simplified wiring (no more stop or slow-down section)
- smooth start and stop using acceleration and deceleration features included in all recent decoders
- permanent coach lighting (no more interruptions because of stope sections)
- possibility to use a train in reverse (the loco pushes the train) and still having the train stop at the correct location in front of the signal
- possibility to add additional orders (whistle, conductor signal, station announcement, etc)
- savings because now NO deceleration modules are needed (NOWHERE). Signals are not needed in ghost stations (invisible sections)
- improved realism because complex signals can be driven depending of loco type, itinerary, etc
- others I forget

Why do you think having all the tracks powered at the same time is a drawback?
My layout includes more than 32 sound locos and at least 25 lighted coaches and the total current is approx. 2.9 A. I use NO BOOSTERS but only a CS2 and a 100W power supply (Märklin 60101).
Having all the layout powered all the time means that no switch (signal switch, relay) can be damaged by a short-circuit on the layout.
Remember that Rocrail (the software I know best) is free to use (more precisely, it is made by a team of people with a passion for train who accept donations to help developments and support), provides a contextual help in the language you select if your PC is connected to the internet. A forum in English, German, Italien, Dutch and French are very helpful.
You start here: https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php
Not that my layout is special but just as an example of software control of a train layout:

and here is the control of cars (Faller Car System)


And don't think that with a PC control, the PC has all the fun. No you are only promoted to chief dispatcher
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Gustav  
#21 Posted : 18 September 2020 07:58:28(UTC)
Gustav

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/09/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: den Bosch
Thank you Jean

Very helpful.

I don't think having all the tracks powered at the same time is a drawback, but I already have these deceleration and stop sections installed, so I was just wondering what to do with them

best

Offline JohnjeanB  
#22 Posted : 18 September 2020 10:45:42(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Hi Gustav
I have removed all stop sections and insulators and put back the deceleration modules in their box (waste of money and problem maker). Just my opinion
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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