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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 10 August 2020 09:41:07(UTC)
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morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 619
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

Got my trains running yesterday after a year and oddly enough had a problem with my only Marklin Loco (39674). When it runs over slim points, the slider tilts to one side and shorts out on the frog.

UserPostedImage

What would suddenly cause this? I have not had this problem before. The slider does drop quite far down when hold it in the air, is the spring pressuse too high?

Thanks for any advice.
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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Offline Copenhagen  
#2 Posted : 10 August 2020 16:26:14(UTC)
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Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 497
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Maybe it's the same problem discussed in a Danish forum. There was a link to the stummiforum with a solution:
https://www.stummiforum....che+kurzschluss#p2039236
A solution could be puko insulators as shown in the picture. The guy in the Danish forum had problems with some pickup shoes making shorts. He reported back that these problems went away after using the plastic insulators.
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Offline morsing  
#3 Posted : 10 August 2020 16:36:54(UTC)
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morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 619
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Maybe it's the same problem discussed in a Danish forum. There was a link to the stummiforum with a solution:
https://www.stummiforum....che+kurzschluss#p2039236
A solution could be puko insulators as shown in the picture. The guy in the Danish forum had problems with some pickup shoes making shorts. He reported back that these problems went away after using the plastic insulators.


Hmm... Looking at that device, I'm thinking all you really need is an inside plastic "wall" by the crossing rail. Just a fraction of a millimeter high. The insulator in that photo doesn't really look like it would do much...

I might try slackening the slider pressure in the mean time...
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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Offline midwestbls  
#4 Posted : 10 August 2020 18:12:23(UTC)
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midwestbls

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Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Maybe it's the same problem discussed in a Danish forum. There was a link to the stummiforum with a solution:
https://www.stummiforum....che+kurzschluss#p2039236
A solution could be puko insulators as shown in the picture. The guy in the Danish forum had problems with some pickup shoes making shorts. He reported back that these problems went away after using the plastic insulators.



This looks like a 3rd-party, manufactured piece. Who makes it? Where is it available? I've had similar issues with the slim turnouts!

- Bill
ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
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Offline rbw993  
#5 Posted : 10 August 2020 18:17:01(UTC)
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rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,049
You can also put heat shrink tube insulation around the offending pukos or twist them slightly away from the rail.

Roger
Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.
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Offline Copenhagen  
#6 Posted : 10 August 2020 19:24:05(UTC)
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Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 497
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Seems that the link in the stummiforum is broken... This should work
https://www.rztec.de/produkt/2087/

I don't have any slim turnouts so I don't use the product.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 10 August 2020 21:24:58(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,469
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Seems that the link in the stummiforum is broken... This should work
https://www.rztec.de/produkt/2087/

I don't have any slim turnouts so I don't use the product.


He also has them for standard turnouts. At 2 euro each plus MWst and shipping that is probably a reasonable price considering likely material cost and running a 3D printer.
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Offline applor  
#8 Posted : 11 August 2020 06:20:31(UTC)
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applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,768
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
edit: deleted as my comments were specific to K track slim turnouts.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline clapcott  
#9 Posted : 11 August 2020 09:11:51(UTC)
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clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
My analysis of similar issues is that the issue is NOT that the slider touches the tongues of the "theoretically unneeded" switching track BUT that the switching track should not be conductive at this point in the first place.

With a dremel you can make 4 cuts to isolate the tongues electrically. Such that the inactive one (that the slider may touch) does not have any connection to ground ("0") and the active one retrieves a conducting path through its physical contact with the outside rail.





Peter
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Offline morsing  
#10 Posted : 11 August 2020 09:54:35(UTC)
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morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 619
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
My analysis of similar issues is that the issue is NOT that the slider touches the tongues of the "theoretically unneeded" switching track BUT that the switching track should not be conductive at this point in the first place.

With a dremel you can make 4 cuts to isolate the tongues electrically. Such that the inactive one (that the slider may touch) does not have any connection to ground ("0") and the active one retrieves a conducting path through its physical contact with the outside rail.



Hi Clapcott,

Looking at a slim point here, the actual moving tongues are electrically isolated and to isolate the middle section would require dremelling where the rails hit the chunky bit of metal in the middle. I think that would end up looking pretty awful.

Marklin has actually gone to great length to keep the slider off the rail, looking closely at it, I'm quite surprised it manages to touch.

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 13 August 2020 10:02:18(UTC)
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clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Looking at a slim point here, the actual moving tongues are electrically isolated ....
Unless we are talking about different items , you will find a leaf contactor under the pivot point

Quote:
...and to isolate the middle section would require dremelling where the rails hit the chunky bit of metal in the middle.
Yes , ensure the gap is definitely open - an air gap AND cut down to sever the bridge under the rail that comes from the frog
This may be seen from the underside where the silver underside of the rails can be seen to be in contact with a (black metal) leaf bridge

The other 2 cuts are needed to sever a similar bridge, to the outside rail, that may be seen between the 3rd and 4th ties back from the pivot.

Quote:
I think that would end up looking pretty awful.
In this case I am after function above form - although the cuts are no worse than others around the place.
Peter
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Offline morsing  
#12 Posted : 13 August 2020 10:21:04(UTC)
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morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 619
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Looking at a slim point here, the actual moving tongues are electrically isolated ....
Unless we are talking about different items , you will find a leaf contactor under the pivot point



Looks pretty isolated to me:

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

This may be seen from the underside where the silver underside of the rails can be seen to be in contact with a (black metal) leaf bridge

The other 2 cuts are needed to sever a similar bridge, to the outside rail, that may be seen between the 3rd and 4th ties back from the pivot.



I can't see any of that but maybe I don't know what a leaf bridge is.

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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Offline clapcott  
#13 Posted : 16 August 2020 05:57:09(UTC)
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clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Make of the following what you will.

I interpret the header reference to "slim turnouts" to mean the 24711 and 24712 and I offer my experience
I am also interpreting the title , with a dose of flexibility, to mean "Slider touching closure rail on slim points"

Just in case there is an issue with terminology, I am using the following.
The use of "Tongue" may be understood by some to be just the point rail or the combination of Point and Closure (as these are commonly one rail in real life.
The Marklin 24711/24712 frog does not have an obvious toe on their Wing rails
UserPostedImage

Below is where the sparks fly. When the slider/shoe/pickup rocks if not centered on the studs
Almost exclusively at "1" due to the curved motion forcing the slider of the locomotive/wagon toward the outside of its travel.

NOTE: You will find references elsewhere to the reworking of the check/guard rail (with a shim).
The prime purpose of this device is to pull the machines leading wheel inside the "Curved Frog Rail", however in some cases it may catch the front of a locomotive early enough to help center the slider and minimise the slider rocking to touch the Closure rail.
UserPostedImage

In the following is represented
- By ovals, where the contact crimps occur
- - Brown = the usual feed to the rail from the underside
- - Orange = the crimps for bridging from rail to rail or rail to frog
- The Lines represent the BELOW rail (but ABOVE roadbed) bridging
- - Yellow = bridge (using crimps) from Stock rail to Closure rail
- - Green = leaf, pressure contact strip of fine metal
UserPostedImage

As far as where to look for these bridges/crimps ....
The following two show the abovetrackbed view, the 3rd shows a view from under the trackbed BUT looking through to the underside of the Closure rails
- Red arrows = where you may squint to see the dark grey leaf contact - it is more obvious around the Point rail pivot.
- Orange arrows = bridging crimps
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

When it comes to a solution ...
I challenge anyone with a variety of sliders, especially on old '50s or '60s to guarantee that they do not have to have their train "Running at speed" AND to state that they do not have residue (grey soot) in the area highlighted as "1" in the 2nd image above.

For those that do not have perfectly adjust (gauged) wheelsets and perfectly adjusted (tension and shape) slider and who do not like sparks, then isolating the Closure rail so that it only gets electrically connected when its associated point rail is touching its adjacent stock rail will remove this issue.

The 3 rail system already offers a return circuit on the Stock rail, so , in my experience, there is little need to further augment the Point rails "touching" of the Stock rail with a more specifically wired switch controlled feeder.



Of course this is not perfect. If for example you have wheelsets that are TOO narrow and the inside of the flange makes contact with the (theoretically unpowered) point/closure rail at about the pivot point then an electrical circuit will be livened up.
UserPostedImage
Peter
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Offline David Dewar  
#14 Posted : 16 August 2020 11:40:46(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,453
Location: Scotland
Not my thread and I do not have the problem but feel I must congratulate Peter on an excellent post which must have taken some time to compose.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline morsing  
#15 Posted : 17 August 2020 09:50:04(UTC)
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morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 619
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Thank-you for that excellent post, clapcott.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 19 August 2020 21:39:48(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,275
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post


Got my trains running yesterday after a year and oddly enough had a problem with my only Marklin Loco (39674). When it runs over slim points, the slider tilts to one side and shorts out on the frog.

I have not had this problem before.



Does this happens only with the loco 39674?
Have you tried with another loco from your friends or borrow from a store to test if it happens same way?
It seems hardly way to fault slim points.
Märklin would not mass produce this slim points by present short circuit as result.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline applor  
#17 Posted : 20 August 2020 03:04:20(UTC)
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applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,768
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


Does this happens only with the loco 39674?
Have you tried with another loco from your friends or borrow from a store to test if it happens same way?
It seems hardly way to fault slim points.
Märklin would not mass produce this slim points by present short circuit as result.




After the experiences I've had with the K track slim points, I disagree. Not all their tracks and locos work without issue and I have also seen varying tolerances with track manufacturing of points.
The old style sliders with the recessed centre hole cause short circuit problems on K track slim and power outages on double slip and also on C track 3-way points as shown in another thread here.
While newer locos tend to have flat solid sliders, they still sell new models with the centre hole despite the issues they cause.

What's important here is that the problem is identified and solutions found so we can enjoy the hobby.
The alternative is changing to 2 rail which have none of the issues that we often see with the 3 rail system.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Goofy  
#18 Posted : 20 August 2020 06:58:48(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,275
Are you sure about that applor?
You know yourself that Märklin do have test track layout by use in both short and large turnouts with the C and K tracks?
It is hardly believe to fault turnouts when it´s possible design flaws with the locomotives.
I have never got problem by use large K-tracks turnout, but i have not used all train models to see faults happens.
I did had one small locomotive name Glaskasten but in this case the locomotive was too light when the slider did lift up the locomotive by pass over the turnouts cause of higher stud contact.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 20 August 2020 09:58:37(UTC)
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Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,528
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Me thinks the problem is the slider, it should be able to flex up an down; but always more or less
with a horizontal underside, not tilting to the sides as shown in the picture Cool

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline rbw993  
#20 Posted : 20 August 2020 15:58:31(UTC)
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rbw993

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Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
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It occurs on both C and K tracks but not for all loks. See this thread.

Shorting issues

Only some of my Marklin loks have the issue and in this case a Roco Re6/6. The wheel shorting also happens with some DC wheelsets. Never had a problem with Marklin passenger or freight cars.

Regards,
Roger

Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.
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