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Offline Martin T  
#1 Posted : 02 April 2020 22:27:32(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi friends!

I have issues with my Märklin locomotives with msd3 retrofit decoders, as well as new locomotives with factory installed sound decoders.

If I by accident get a short circuit of the track power, or just turn power off and on, the decoders may in some instances start to play a sound. Only problem is.. It cannot be turned off. Checking the CS2 all sounds are off. I try to switch all sounds on and off again, but still that buzz, horn, or pump sound just continues. Only way to stop it is by reset the decoder on the programming track and then move it to MAIN to let it sign in again.

I have also tried to switch CV for AC and DC analogue operation OFF. That stopped the Locomotives from running in maximum speed on power up (Only happens 1/50 Power ups). But it didn´t stop the random issues with functions and sounds.

Today this problem has escalated and switched on "shunting mode" on new BR44. The shunting mode was turned off, but even turning it ON and then back OFF didn´t make any difference. The locomotive had to be reset on the programming track.

I´ve been searching the forum, but haven´t found any earlier post with a solution for this issue.

QUESTION:
1) Has anyone here seen the same issue?
2) If so.. Solutions?

Looking forward to your wisdom!

Best Regards / Martin

Edited by user 21 January 2021 21:35:47(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 03 April 2020 09:46:14(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,337
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
The symptom is consistent with a function that is triggered by a on, not being turned off

This may be compounded by your programming of the trigger from "state" rather than "edge" or "pulse"

Can you provide a copy of your programming for the functions.
Peter
Offline pederbc  
#3 Posted : 03 April 2020 10:04:46(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
I have seen this behaviour as well. I have the ESU Command Station, and when switching the track power on, the msd3 will occasionally start with random sound which on the ECoS is turned off and also can’t be turned off. I also had one occasion where the lok starting running backwards when turning on power.

Peder
Offline pederbc  
#4 Posted : 03 April 2020 10:08:50(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Another very annoying ”feature” of the Märklin programmer is that it’s not possible to program via the track.

Peder
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Offline Gregor  
#5 Posted : 03 April 2020 15:05:02(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 963
Location: Netherlands
Hi,

I have 3 msd3 decoders and experienced the following issues:
- Sometimes on startup, my DB V100 moves about 10 cm before coming to a standstill with the horn continuously sounding
- Sometimes a loc with an msd3 does not respond to any command. I need to shut off track-power for a few seconds and repower after which it is OK.

I have tried many things like disabling non-relevant protocols and setting all functions to "off" when in analog mode, alas to no avail.

My solution...
msd3 : ESU V5 = 3 : 10
Sorry Märklin...

Best regards,
Gregor
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Gregor
Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 03 April 2020 15:11:04(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Another very annoying ”feature” of the Märklin programmer is that it’s not possible to program via the track.

Peder


Hi Peder
Using a CS2 or CS3 it is of course possible to program via the tracks. It takes longuer 30 to 40 minutes instead of 4 minutes.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 03 April 2020 15:14:46(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Gregor Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I have 3 msd3 decoders and experienced the following issues:
- Sometimes on startup, my DB V100 moves about 10 cm before coming to a standstill with the horn continuously sounding
- Sometimes a loc with an msd3 does not respond to any command. I need to shut off track-power for a few seconds and repower after which it is OK.

I have tried many things like disabling non-relevant protocols and setting all functions to "off" when in analog mode, alas to no avail.

My solution...
msd3 : ESU V5 = 3 : 10
Sorry Märklin...

Best regards,
Gregor

Hi Gregor
Everything is possible, but having quite a number of msd3 and msd2 I never observed this on my layout. It is powered by a CS2 and a 100W (60101) power supply.
You may have a problem either with a component on your layout or with the digital power source.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Martin T  
#8 Posted : 03 April 2020 23:14:01(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
The symptom is consistent with a function that is triggered by a on, not being turned off

This may be compounded by your programming of the trigger from "state" rather than "edge" or "pulse"

Can you provide a copy of your programming for the functions.


Hi!

The last project, which showed these symptoms was a Märklin original project downloaded from their server, namely the BR50 project.
I didn´t change anything. Just downloaded using the programming stick into a new msd3 decoder.
I´ve attached the project to this post.

BR50-2448 Kabin_mSD3.zip (11kb) downloaded 18 time(s).


Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline clapcott  
#9 Posted : 04 April 2020 09:29:56(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,337
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Just backing up a bit,

An update consists of two aspects (file sets)
1) The sound files themselves with mapping to sound slots
2) The descriptor file for informing a CS (on mfx discovery) which sound slots and outputs are controlled by which function - including the icon to present and whether it has a ON/OFF or momentary setting.


After download to a decoder, the sounds are readily available for use on the next power on of the decoder/loco..
However the readout of the function mappings will only occur on mFX discovery.

So.
Has your CS rediscovered the loco(decoder) and does it show the correct icons and mode?
If not you might try deleting the Loco from the CS and letting it rediscover properly.

Even then it should be checked that the CS buttons behave as expected.
e.g. for announcements, the CS button will pulse yellow and return to black (the announcement only needs a pulse to start)

If the CS has the button (incorrectly) set to ON/OFF rather than pulse , the announcement will play once as expected. (the function will stay Yellow)
However after a power interruption, the decoder will check the values, see that the function is on (not turned off) and will replay the announcement.
Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 04 April 2020 10:45:37(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,337
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Re BR50-2448 Kabin_mSD3.zip

My download of you file has an incomplete project - as there are no sound loaded.

However, looking at the sound mapping and using F17 and F18 as an example I see these mapped to sound slots 14 and 15 respectively AND that they are set for "Switching Function".

If, in fact, these sounds are announcements that only play through one, you might look to alter their mode to momentary.

Noting: that you can do this on the CS2 for a given loco, however if the loco is not on the track and powered, it will not receive the updates, and a future rediscovery will pick up the old values.
Peter
Offline bph  
#11 Posted : 12 April 2020 01:03:39(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 422
Hi
You probably have checked it, but if not, it might be worth a try.
Do you have the latest firmware on the decoders? (should be something like 3.2.1.0). I asuming you have the latest mDecoderTool software, and it seems like it adapt decoder projects to the latest firmware, and if that is uploaded to a decoder with old firmware, you might get something strange.
Also I have the latest mDecoderTool software, but I had to reinstall it becouse it kept behaving a bit strange. After a reinstall everything worked fine.

Offline dickinsonj  
#12 Posted : 15 April 2020 23:03:10(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: United States
I have this same problem with factory mSD/3 decoders which have not been altered in any way.

I control my trains with a 60215 CS2 and I had never seen this until a few months ago. It can happen whenever I apply power to my track, whether just starting up or after having the track power off for some reason. It is not specific to any one loco either, but some locos do seem to do this more often than others. My 39570 is particularly irritating because it plays the very long prototype information dialog (the last function), which goes on for a very long time.

The last time it happened I cut track power and almost immediately reapplied it and the sound did not start again. When I have checked, the function that self triggered was not active on my CS2. I never saw this behavior prior to installing the latest CS2 updates and I have never had it happen with any of the mSD/3 decoders which I programmed and installed, so I don't think it is related to a decoder programming error.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 15 April 2020 23:10:34(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jim

This seem to be related to the GFP (GleisformatProcessor) download. I would try another on-line update (refresher).
Is your CS2 near its power limit? Is your power supply (hopefully not a transformer) strong enough?
Please check that only needed protocols are selected. Sometime, an update may clear these things or link88 configuration.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 16 April 2020 13:28:14(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: United States
Hello Jean,

Thanks for your input.

I agree that I need to perform another update. I am using four power supplies with the booster in my CS2 plus three external boosters, which has not changed in several years. When I check power consumption each circuit is usually pulling about 0,7 to 0,8 amps, so there is plenty of power available. I have the protocols which I use selected, which are MM, MFX and DCC. I don't currently have any link88 devices configured or in use.

Your question about the GFP reminds me of something odd that happened on my last software update though. I saw a new GFP version in the file list, but I never was asked for permission to update the boosters as I always have been in the past. The update did not end in the usual manner either, but hung until I nudged it. That is more support for the need for another update.

I exchanged emails with one of their North American digital consultants (The Märklin Dudes) a couple of months ago about a different problem. He said that the limited amount of memory in a CS2 sometimes causes the loco info stored in the CS2 to become corrupted somehow. He suggested deleting the loco involved and letting it register again. That didn't solve that issue but it could be related to this. I thought that it was something unique to my layout but it is interesting to hear that others are having the same problems.

This last six months have just been one Märklin problem after another for me, leading me to cancel all of my current orders and concentrate on getting what I have actually working properly. At my most down moments it has even made me consider just finding a broker and chucking the whole mess!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline Martin T  
#15 Posted : 21 January 2021 20:48:09(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I just wanted to bump this thread, since this issue is getting out of hand here. I have more locomotives standing in the closet, than on the tracks.

Yes, I have checked the power. It´s 0,7Amp draw max. The issue is consistant over the layout. I have a power feed every two meters from the 4mm2 main cable (only 4 meters long).

I today bought 5 packs with mLD decoders and replaced sound decoders in my 5 most running trains to simplify my video production. mLD doesn´t seem to suffer from this issue as much as sound decoders.

Any ideas?
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Online kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 21 January 2021 21:49:38(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,431
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

I just wanted to bump this thread, since this issue is getting out of hand here. I have more locomotives standing in the closet, than on the tracks.

Yes, I have checked the power. It´s 0,7Amp draw max. The issue is consistant over the layout. I have a power feed every two meters from the 4mm2 main cable (only 4 meters long).

I today bought 5 packs with mLD decoders and replaced sound decoders in my 5 most running trains to simplify my video production. mLD doesn´t seem to suffer from this issue as much as sound decoders.

Any ideas?


And judging by your post over here I would almost be prepared to bet the locos you are having problems with are mfx+ ones. Your description here only reinforces my thoughts that you need to update your cs software to the current revision.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 21 January 2021 22:09:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Another very annoying ”feature” of the Märklin programmer is that it’s not possible to program via the track.

Peder

A loco with a Märklin decoder can be programmed on the track by a CS2 or CS3. Restriction: a factory-installed Sound decoder cannot have its sound changed - reprogrammed in any ways (track or on programmer).
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline Martin T  
#18 Posted : 21 January 2021 22:11:28(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

I just wanted to bump this thread, since this issue is getting out of hand here. I have more locomotives standing in the closet, than on the tracks.

Yes, I have checked the power. It´s 0,7Amp draw max. The issue is consistant over the layout. I have a power feed every two meters from the 4mm2 main cable (only 4 meters long).

I today bought 5 packs with mLD decoders and replaced sound decoders in my 5 most running trains to simplify my video production. mLD doesn´t seem to suffer from this issue as much as sound decoders.

Any ideas?


And judging by your post over here I would almost be prepared to bet the locos you are having problems with are mfx+ ones. Your description here only reinforces my thoughts that you need to update your cs software to the current revision.


Ok.. I´ll update it. It´s a easy thing to do and I´ll do it.. I´ll be back...
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline dickinsonj  
#19 Posted : 21 January 2021 22:31:28(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I would almost be prepared to bet the locos you are having problems with are mfx+ ones. Your description here only reinforces my thoughts that you need to update your cs software to the current revision.


I exchanged emails with the North American digital consultants about this problem. They felt that it might occur when the active functions stored in CS2 memory do not match the decoder active functions or the CS2 display. They speculated that it might be caused by the fairly limited CS internal memory being corrupted or somehow overloaded. Their suggestion was to delete the locos affected and then re-register them, giving them a fresh memory space to work from. I did try that but it really did not fix the problem for me. My CS2 has been up to date on its software in every case where this has happened, although that is always a good place to start. It is strange because I can go months without this happening and then once it starts it happens fairly often.

I had never seen that before the update which allowed my CS2 to address 32 functions and I wonder if that change has overloaded the memory that was fine for 16 functions but not enough for a large number of locos with 32 functions. It happened to me again last week and after I cut power to the layout and restored it, the errant function was no longer active. Not very elegant but it let me avoid waiting for the function to end, particularly the very long prototype descriptions.

Just today my new CS3+ arrived and I will be interested to see if the problem persists. I think I will add an SD memory card to expand the CS3 internal memory, just as a precaution.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Online kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 21 January 2021 23:38:14(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,431
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I would almost be prepared to bet the locos you are having problems with are mfx+ ones. Your description here only reinforces my thoughts that you need to update your cs software to the current revision.


I exchanged emails with the North American digital consultants about this problem. They felt that it might occur when the active functions stored in CS2 memory do not match the decoder active functions or the CS2 display. They speculated that it might be caused by the fairly limited CS internal memory being corrupted or somehow overloaded. Their suggestion was to delete the locos affected and then re-register them, giving them a fresh memory space to work from. I did try that but it really did not fix the problem for me. My CS2 has been up to date on its software in every case where this has happened, although that is always a good place to start. It is strange because I can go months without this happening and then once it starts it happens fairly often.

I had never seen that before the update which allowed my CS2 to address 32 functions and I wonder if that change has overloaded the memory that was fine for 16 functions but not enough for a large number of locos with 32 functions. It happened to me again last week and after I cut power to the layout and restored it, the errant function was no longer active. Not very elegant but it let me avoid waiting for the function to end, particularly the very long prototype descriptions.

Just today my new CS3+ arrived and I will be interested to see if the problem persists. I think I will add an SD memory card to expand the CS3 internal memory, just as a precaution.



If the problem persists you may need to update the firmware in the decoders. I have never tried to do it with a cs, only from the Marklin programmer.

perhaps someone can chime in who has done it from a cs. All I know is you need to use the program that drives the 60971 programmer to do it.

The same may also go for Martin T. Often everything needs to be kept in sync with software releases (just don't get Goofy started on this BigGrin ).
Offline dickinsonj  
#21 Posted : 22 January 2021 01:02:54(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
If the problem persists you may need to update the firmware in the decoders. I have never tried to do it with a cs, only from the Marklin programmer.

Good suggestion on the firmware Alan, although some of the worst offenders on my layout are less than a year old. That still doesn't mean that they don't need new firmware though.

I have never tried doing that, but I do have the Märklin decoder programmer USB stick and software on my laptop. I read something here once about how that can go wrong and brick your decoder, so I have held off on updating any decoder firmware.

You could only do that with an upgrade decoder however, correct? When I have tried to access a factory decoder with my programmer it just told me that it was not an upgrade decoder, so it could not communicate with it or make any changes. One of the worst offenders is my 39520 Fc 2x3/4 and it almost always triggers that never ending prototype message.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#22 Posted : 22 January 2021 08:10:23(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,108
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I have never tried doing that, but I do have the Märklin decoder programmer USB stick and software on my laptop. I read something here once about how that can go wrong and brick your decoder, so I have held off on updating any decoder firmware.


Just make sure your CS2 is at the correct version that supports mSD3 decoder (best to update to the latest) if you are using a CS2 to program the decoder.

I tried programming a msd3 with what turned out to be a CS2 with one minor software revision level lower than that which supported the msd3. Needless to say the decoder was unusable after that.

I purchased the Decoder Programmer USB stick, and some time later I put the bricked decoder on the Programmer to see if a firmware update could be applied. To my surprise the firmware update was successful and even better the functionality of the decoder was restored. I was then able to upload a new sound file to the decoder.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Online kiwiAlan  
#23 Posted : 22 January 2021 13:41:45(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,431
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
If the problem persists you may need to update the firmware in the decoders. I have never tried to do it with a cs, only from the Marklin programmer.

Good suggestion on the firmware Alan, although some of the worst offenders on my layout are less than a year old. That still doesn't mean that they don't need new firmware though.

I have never tried doing that, but I do have the Märklin decoder programmer USB stick and software on my laptop. I read something here once about how that can go wrong and brick your decoder, so I have held off on updating any decoder firmware.

You could only do that with an upgrade decoder however, correct? When I have tried to access a factory decoder with my programmer it just told me that it was not an upgrade decoder, so it could not communicate with it or make any changes. One of the worst offenders is my 39520 Fc 2x3/4 and it almost always triggers that never ending prototype message.



The firmware in the decoder can be updated, but the sound can't (normally, I think Bigdaddys case is an anomaly). I have (tried) to update the firmware in a number of my decoders not long after i received my programmer. There are some examples of firmware that will not update (in my case the Rangiercroc wouldn't) because the new firmware is not set up to deal with some features (in my case i think it was the new Telex). however I was able to update the other three Marklin fitted decoders that I tried.

See my post over here about doing the updates. (Bigdaddy, could that thread be made sticky?)
Offline mario54i  
#24 Posted : 22 January 2021 14:39:25(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 233
Location: Torino,
I have just got my 37473 Re421 Zurich-Munchen. Never seen such a crazy decoder.
Tested with MS2, ECOS and Lokprogrammer, it can work perfectly or not work in random ways. Only lights always work correctly.
MS2 doesn't register it as mfx, only DCC 3. ECOS registers it as mfx taking the usual long time. Lokprogrammer controls it as DCC or Motorola.
It can work all perfectly, or no engine, or no sound, or a few sounds only (e.g. whistle and no engine sound), or noise bursts. All this at random, it can run and suddenly stop or lose sounds.
Resetting decoder (8 > CV8 using Lokprogrammer) restarts correct operation, but only for a while.
Any advice, besides resending it to shop ? I'm worried as when random failures occur this never happens at repair shop.
Regards.

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