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Offline rbw993  
#1 Posted : 08 March 2020 14:17:45(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
I hope someone else has seen this issue and has a solution. The ROCO models of the SBB Re6/6's are very detailed and and well decorated so this issue is really annoying as I can't get them to run well. I have two and both exhibit the same problem. The slider shorts out when going over the C and K track turnouts. This occurs mostly when traversing the switch from the frog side of the turnout. they run better when traversing from the points side. The major differences compared to my Marklin Re6/6's is that the slider is on the center truck, not the front, and is wider So far I have tried the following.

Short and long Roco sliders - no difference
Lubricated the truck mount with graphite to reduce binding - no difference
Bent the slider to make it more convex and concave - Slight improvement when more convex

I haven't tried substituting a Marklin slider. I am not sure what part number if any will fit.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Roger

Offline jvuye  
#2 Posted : 08 March 2020 16:23:26(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
I hope someone else has seen this issue and has a solution. The ROCO models of the SBB Re6/6's are very detailed and and well decorated so this issue is really annoying as I can't get them to run well. I have two and both exhibit the same problem. The slider shorts out when going over the C and K track turnouts. This occurs mostly when traversing the switch from the frog side of the turnout. they run better when traversing from the points side. The major differences compared to my Marklin Re6/6's is that the slider is on the center truck, not the front, and is wider So far I have tried the following.

Short and long Roco sliders - no difference
Lubricated the truck mount with graphite to reduce binding - no difference
Bent the slider to make it more convex and concave - Slight improvement when more convex

I haven't tried substituting a Marklin slider. I am not sure what part number if any will fit.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Roger



Just a piece of (heat)shrink tubing on the offending pukos maybe?
Roco (fluster)sliders are a bit wider than Märklin's .
Check also the wheels' spacing (13.8 mm is spec for Märklin but sometimes increasing slightly to 13.9 helps!) ) and how much lateral play is present for the axles in the middle bogie.
They probably have to be given a lot of "freedom" to negotiate R1 curves.
Hope this helps
Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 08 March 2020 16:31:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,033
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I have not problems on my K-tracks nor my limited number of C-track turnouts., I have 4 of them

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 08 March 2020 16:40:25(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,621
Location: Montreal, QC
Check the slider to see if the metal blade is snuggly sitting in the plastic frame. I have seen a few where the curve on the metal blade is not the exactly same as the guide and this has caused the slider to not sit straight on the pukos. In most cases, swapping out the blade has resulted in no further problems. The alternative would be replacing the entire slider, which would require soldering the wire to the new contacts.

Regards

Mike C
Offline rbw993  
#5 Posted : 08 March 2020 17:58:53(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Thanks for the ideas guys. I gave up trying to adjust the Roco slider. So I cut down the bronze spring and mounted are Marklin slider on it. Still no luck

All my turnouts are wide radius so I have no idea if it would run fine on R2 or R1 turnouts.

I ran it really slowly and can see the slider tipping down and touching the rail So I tried adding a couple dummy pukos by drilling holes and inserting copper wire but it wasn't enough to keep the slider off the rail. It also is worse on the straight leg versus the divergent one. It must have something to do with the stability of the middle truck. The Marklin Re6/6's have the slider on the front truck and have no problem.

Thanks,
Roger
Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2020 17:10:26(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,621
Location: Montreal, QC
I'm wondering whether there might be a possibility that the middle bogie might have been either rotated 180 degrees or been improperly installed.
Have you considered possibly installing a shorter length slider?
Is this a locomotive that was purchased new or was it a locomotive bought from a second hand source?

The last Re 6/6 that I bought was the 79853 Cargo one. I have not had any such issues on any of my numerous Roco Re 6/6 (620).
The only issue that I ever had was a "light shining through the shell" issue on two red models.

Can you try to record a short video of the problem using a cellphone?

Regards

Mike C
Offline rbw993  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2020 22:43:51(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Mike it was bought new a couple years ago. It came with a long slider I replaced it with the jury rigged Marklin slider and then the Roco short slider. None have worked consistently. The short slider is actually worse because it contacts the truck on both ends. The long slider sticks out beyond the truck.

My recollection of previous experience with and older model in the Mint Green Cargo scheme was that it didn't have the issue on the R2 switches. Now I only have "slim" turnouts and it happens to both.

I took apart the center truck and it is symmetrical.

When it shorts and stalls I can see the slider in contact with the running rail. I think that there is enough instability in the mounting of the truck to the frame it can wobble when running through the frog and the slider hist the rail.

Maybe have to buy an Re4/4 and provide power from that to the Re6/6. A permanent Re10/10. If I find a cheap one I could even strip out the motor and let the Re6/6 do all the work. No motor matching required.

Don't think a video will show much. It's all happening in the dark under the lok.

Roger
Offline jvuye  
#8 Posted : 10 March 2020 18:29:00(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post

.....

Don't think a video will show much. It's all happening in the dark under the lok.

Roger


Hi Roger and Co

Just reproduced the problem here (at least I think so..Wink )
I noticed that the tip of the slider can touch the rail at the spot where it crosses over the rail (in fact just between the last double puko and the first one on the deviated/ traight strand)
This is made possible because the pukos are no longer in the middle of the track.
The marklin slider has and effective width of 3 mm, and the gap between pukos is 4.5 mm so its tip will just "drop" in there, unless it's kept in place by the rest of the contact point of the rest of the slider.
I have a ROCO Re 4/4 II (with a Märklin style pick up, of the older type, with an 0.8 mm thick metal ski) ) that I used for the test.
So here's what I suggest you try (it worked here...): you need to bend (up) the tips of the Märklin style pick up , so that it makes contact a little further, when it's already on the next row of pukos.
This way , when the tips "sinks", it still won't touch the rail it's crossing.

markslider.jpg

I know it's subtle but all you need to gain is 1 mm in heigth, on about 6 mm length

Good luck, hope it helps!

Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline rbw993  
#9 Posted : 10 March 2020 19:24:21(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Thanks Jacques,
Your description is what I have observed as well. I don't have a spare Marklin slider. I used a slider from a passenger car lighting kit. You would probably be appalled I what I did to the Roco slider spring to adapt it to the Marklin slider. So it probably wasn't a great test. One might think that with the wider Roco slider it would catch the pukos sooner. Regular Marklin locos don't have the problem. I have ordered a new Roco long slider since I butchered the old one. I have two BLS Re4/4's from Roco and they don't have the issue either.

The main issue has got to be related to the middle bogie mount. I will take another look at that from the point of regauging the wheels to see if i can cut down on side to side movement as the wheels run through the frog.

Do you know how long a Marklin 7164 pick up shoe is? If it is as long as the Roco Long slider it might be worth a try.

Thanks,
Roger
Offline jvuye  
#10 Posted : 10 March 2020 20:23:26(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Jacques,
....

Do you know how long a Marklin 7164 pick up shoe is? If it is as long as the Roco Long slider it might be worth a try.

Thanks,
Roger


7164 is 50 mm, the Roco Flusterschleifer is 45 mm
7164 would not work on my ROCO Re 4/4 II , which has a 40 mm slider.

Cheers

Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline rbw993  
#11 Posted : 10 March 2020 20:38:38(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Then the 7164 is a reasonable candidate. I'll order one of those too.

Thanks again!
Offline jvuye  
#12 Posted : 10 March 2020 21:07:45(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Then the 7164 is a reasonable candidate. I'll order one of those too.

Thanks again!


Keep us posted: I also have a vested interest in this: I am extending my layouit and am about to use quite a few of the sleek switches! Wink Wink Wink
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 11 March 2020 00:18:29(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,033
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
When taking the middle bogie apart there are 2 springs within the bogie which balances the bogie to the chassis, are they still there ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 11 March 2020 00:56:44(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Keep us posted: I also have a vested interest in this: I am extending my layout and am about to use quite a few of the sleek switches! Wink Wink Wink


I have a good number of slim Märklin turnouts and they cause me a lot of headaches with the short sliders with holes on many Märklin coaches.

They do exactly what your ROCO is doing, they drop down just enough to arc to the crossing rail. I have had some success with making sure that the sliders are flat and not curved up in the middle, but some have never worked properly. Close examination of the crossing rails show the place where the arcs happen and almost every turnout has a burnt place where arcing has occurred over and over again.

The slider on my Silberlinge Insider coach set is a recent example of one that I never could get to work correctly. Some coach sliders make the coach lights flicker (not a problem for me), some make the whole track section flicker and a few shut down the power to parts of my layout briefly. Now that I have a problem with and I hardly ever run the BR 65/Silberlinge train because it behaves so badly.

Just something to consider before investing too heavily in sleek switches, as I have.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline jvuye  
#15 Posted : 11 March 2020 10:57:19(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

....

The slider on my Silberlinge Insider coach set is a recent example of one that I never could get to work correctly. Some coach sliders make the coach lights flicker (not a problem for me), some make the whole track section flicker and a few shut down the power to parts of my layout briefly. Now that I have a problem with and I hardly ever run the BR 65/Silberlinge train because it behaves so badly.

Just something to consider before investing too heavily in sleek switches, as I have.


Thank you for the heads up!
This really means I have to spend some time finding a permanent fix to this problem.
It's ok to have to fix a couple of sliders , but if it is an endemic problem ?...
I'll share my findings.
Cheers

Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline rbw993  
#16 Posted : 11 March 2020 12:33:22(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
John, my version only has one spring on the center pin on the bogies that goes into the slot in the plastic bearing. I'll be taking it apart to check on wheel gauge this weekend and will take a picture.

Roger
Offline dickinsonj  
#17 Posted : 11 March 2020 12:57:45(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

....Thank you for the heads up!
This really means I have to spend some time finding a permanent fix to this problem.
It's ok to have to fix a couple of sliders , but if it is an endemic problem ?...


It is a fairly common problem for me Jacques, and it has been for years. I bought the insider set of coaches for the V320 and when it went on the track for the first time both sliders on those coaches behaved very badly in my turnouts. With hours of fiddling around I now have the Swiss coaches behaving perfectly in all circumstances. I have been able to greatly improve the slider on the DB coaches, which now only misbehaves on some turnouts. Since that one only causes problems when it is taking the turn but not when going straight it is "good enough". I have gotten a few locos that have that problem but so far I have been able to carefully adjust their sliders so that they never misbehave. I think that problem results from the short sliders with the hole, combined with where on the model the slider is mounted.

Good luck and if you devise a better fix I would love to hear about it. Every one of my mainlines pass through either two or four of the slim turnouts, so it is not a problem which I can easily ignore.

I have seen suggestions to replace the slider with one which does not have that nasty hole from another brand. But you have to find one of the correct length and then get it to fit on the slider suspension from Märklin and I have not yet tried that. That would be the ideal fix and it would end this problem for me once and for all. ThumpUp

Jim
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline rbw993  
#18 Posted : 12 March 2020 00:08:00(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
I believe I found a contributor to the problem. The Roco wheels flanges allow it to fall into the space in the frog. (bottom picture) This allows the front of the bogie and the slider to pivot down towards the running rail. It is hard to see this in the picture but it is there.

The top picture shows the bearing surface on top of the bogie pin. I was wrong there are no springs on the bogie. They are behind the bearing plate in the frame that presses down on the top of the pin. This arrangement allows a lot of of motion of the bogie, maybe too much.



I checked and Roco does not supply AC profile wheel sets as parts. I compared them to similar wheel sets on a Marklin model and they have half the depth of the Marklin flanges. If I can get a set of Marklin wheels from the parts list for their Re6/6 they will probably fit. The axle diameters are very close.
Bogie 2.jpgBogie 1.jpg
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Offline jvuye  
#19 Posted : 12 March 2020 11:40:24(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
I believe I found a contributor to the problem. The Roco wheels flanges allow it to fall into the space in the frog. (bottom picture) This allows the front of the bogie and the slider to pivot down towards the running rail. It is hard to see this in the picture but it is there.

The top picture shows the bearing surface on top of the bogie pin. I was wrong there are no springs on the bogie. They are behind the bearing plate in the frame that presses down on the top of the pin. This arrangement allows a lot of of motion of the bogie, maybe too much.



I checked and Roco does not supply AC profile wheel sets as parts. I compared them to similar wheel sets on a Marklin model and they have half the depth of the Marklin flanges. If I can get a set of Marklin wheels from the parts list for their Re6/6 they will probably fit. The axle diameters are very close.
...


If you had shown us these pics from the start, I would have said: "look no further"...
Märklin axles are 2.5 mm, Roco is 2 mm, so not a direct fit.
Too bad you're not around the corner from here, I would have fixed thsi for you in 10 minutes! (Got the parts and all)
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline rbw993  
#20 Posted : 12 March 2020 12:22:19(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Jacques,
Is it something I can fix if you sent me parts (if I may be so bold as to ask)? Or how can I order appropriate parts?

Thanks,
Roger
Offline jvuye  
#21 Posted : 12 March 2020 12:58:41(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Jacques,
Is it something I can fix if you sent me parts (if I may be so bold as to ask)? Or how can I order appropriate parts?

Thanks,
Roger


I would have mounted Märklin wheels on the ROCO axles,
This would be done by machining a brass bushing for the Märklin wheels and insert them on the Roco axles
All this needs a wheel press, a wheel extractor and above all a lathe and of course the Märklin wheels

Cheers

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline rbw993  
#22 Posted : 12 March 2020 13:38:49(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Got it!
Considering I have none of the three tools you mention... Maybe someone else makes a 14mm diameter spoked wheel on 2mm axle with Marklin profile flanges. Probably not.
Offline rbw993  
#23 Posted : 12 March 2020 16:08:34(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
I just ordered a couple trucks from Marklin to get the wheelsets. I've got to try something.
Offline jvuye  
#24 Posted : 13 March 2020 16:43:42(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
I just ordered a couple trucks from Marklin to get the wheelsets. I've got to try something.


Jusr sent you a PM
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline rbw993  
#25 Posted : 27 March 2020 13:14:28(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Update on progress. I received the two bogies I ordered from Marklin. I cut the wheel sets out of the bogies with a Dremel grinder. I then drilled out the U shaped channel in the top part of the ROCO bogie and melted the tabs slightly on the bottom part of the ROCO bogie that push up against the axles. The axles rolled freely when the bogie was assembled. I rolled the bogie over turnout frogs, much smoother with no tendency to drop in. I mounted the Marklin 7164 slider and did a running test. Performance was much improved but there is still shorting on some turnouts. I also converted an older Roco Re6/6 to the Marklin wheels. This model has the short slider and it now runs without any shorting. The bogie on the older version is slightly different. It has cutaways on the bottom of the bogie to allow it to compress fully. I tried the short slider on the new 6/6 and it doesn't work as it can't compress and shorts on every turnout.

So next steps are:
1. Try Jacques recommendation to bend the Marklin slider on the ends. I think that there will still be room for it to compress as it is half the thickness of the Roco slider.
2. for completeness I will try the ROCO long slider when it shows up.
3. Put sound in the older model. It is a model of the Mint Green Cargo version, number Re 6/6 11655

Regards
Roger
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Offline rbw993  
#26 Posted : 30 March 2020 18:00:57(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
More follow up.
1. I did the "bend" test and not much difference was noticeable. No issues with compression of the slider spring, there is plenty of room. I did some close observation of the loco running over turnouts, both C and K, and noticed that sparking was occurring at locations than under the slider. Turns out there are two issues again related to wheels, flange depth and spacing on the axle.
The flange depth issue, which I apparently fixed on the center bogie, is still an issue on the two outer bogies. As I noted I have an older Re6/6 with deep flanges an it runs well. Again this is a problem of the wheels falling into the frog gap. This allows the bottom of the bogie to contact the pukos. There are scratches on the bottom plate of the bogie. So I have ordered the geared axles from the parts list of the older loco.
If the spacing of the wheels on the axle is too tight the back of the wheels can touch the side of the pukos in those locations where they are close to the running rails. The small flanged wheels are more likely to have this problem as they can move more side to side than wheels with deep flanges. I have been experimenting with twisting the pukos slightly in the tight clearance ares to provide more of a gap to the running rail. Also tried filing the puko sides but twisting is easier.

2. No ROCO long slider yet but I am thinking that this isn't a big deal.

3. Loksound 5 oredred for the older Re6/6.
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Offline jvuye  
#27 Posted : 01 April 2020 23:02:05(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Good update.
I have had the wheels' flanges sides hitting the pukos!
That was both on straight and curved sleek switches.
That was solved with small pieces of shrink tubing ..and a hair dryerLaugh Wink
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline mike c  
#28 Posted : 02 April 2020 00:49:11(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,621
Location: Montreal, QC
I would think that the best option at this point would be to replace the finer wheelsets used by the latest versions of the models with the ones used in the earlier versions of the Re 6/6. I don't recall any of my 5 of the original models having any issues and my pair of more recent models have not seen much operation time, so I cannot confirm that they have this issue, but they do have the finer wheelsets and detail parts common to the newer productions.

I believe the part number was 110987 (without traction tires or gear). The centre bogie was part number 110984.

Regards

Mike C
Offline rbw993  
#29 Posted : 02 April 2020 03:12:00(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Thanks Mike, That is what I ended up doing. The parts listed on the replacement list of the old loco are 110529 and 110530, traction tires and plain respectively. They are still listed as available directly on the ROCO website. That doesn't still solve the occasional problem with certain Marklin locos on the K slim turnouts. Puko twist seems to fix that.

Regards
Roger
Offline mike c  
#30 Posted : 02 April 2020 16:01:06(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,621
Location: Montreal, QC
Just out of curiosity, I have had some concerns about the movable frog on the K switches. Could this be playing a role in your problem, rather than the bogies/sliders?

https://www.marklin-user...e-frog-on-k-track-points

Regards

Mike C
Offline rbw993  
#31 Posted : 02 April 2020 16:14:53(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 666
Mike, The movable frog was on the old switches which are out of production. Those theoretically would have been better because there was no gap for the wheel to fall into. All my switches are the new version. I have no actual experience with the movable version.

Regards,
Roger
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