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Offline aclassifier  
#1 Posted : 02 March 2020 21:11:15(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Trondheim
Does anybody know how that speedometer works?

I just assume it's correct that it should tick also when the loco is standing still.
Offline Unholz  
#2 Posted : 03 March 2020 08:13:31(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,219
Location: Switzerland
I'm just speculating, but the prototype loco was probably equipped with a Hasler Teloc speedometer that featured a mechanical clock which had to be "wound up" approximately every 24 hours. The ticking sound could come from this clock.
https://picclick.de/SELT...LER-AG-232790506527.html
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Offline aclassifier  
#3 Posted : 03 March 2020 09:33:13(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Trondheim
Very interesting! But how would it work? Here is my sepculation:

I have recorded and measured the ticking. There is a distcinct tick every 0.495.. second. I assume that is meant to be 0.500 second, but the clock in the loco which they recorded from may not have been tuned that accurately. Between this tick there are two smaller ticks, so we have three intervals. At 36 km/h anything moves 10 m per second (36000 m / 3600 seconds), 5 m over half a second. This is a little more than a revolution of the main wheels. They have a diameter (⌀) of 1.35 m, so they would move 1,35 * π  = 4.24 m in a revolution. If the speedometer is being kicked once per revolution it should show 36 km/h * (4.24/10 ) = 15.26 km/h. Thus with a fast "up" / slow "down" arrow to integrate over this length it should show about 15 km/h. If the speedometer is a wound clock I assume the ticking is to clear the integration, hold the arrow or something like that. In that case it would tick while there is a stand still. Pluss it should then show zero, to be verified by the driver.  

Worth reading is the Speedometer article at Wikipedia, but it did not make me any wiser in this regard. Or maybe even more interesting are the Tachometer or Wheel speed sensor articles. But to me, still unsolved how this one would work.
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Offline Unholz  
#4 Posted : 03 March 2020 12:58:45(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,219
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: aclassifier Go to Quoted Post
But to me, still unsolved how this one would work.

Older SBB locomotives had something like a "transmission rod" or mechanism from one wheel to inside the driver's cabin. This is a picture of the transmission on a steam locomotive (scroll down a bit, it's the fifth picture on the right side):

https://www.wikiwand.com/de/SBB_Eb_3/5

And this is a closeup view of a typical Swiss Hasler Teloc speedometer:
https://www.moba-forum.c...-brugg-ae-tacho-uhr-jpg/
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Offline aclassifier  
#5 Posted : 28 March 2020 10:13:34(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Trondheim
I have now got confirmed in [1] (p.20) that the speedometer of Ce 6/8 II was a indeed a Systems Hasler type. So this probably is the case for the III-version, too.

I have been thinking, maybe the ticking at stand-still might be from a paper logging mechanism? I read that the clock logged events on paper from the Integra-Signum safety system.

[1] is crammed with detail in German. Google translate and I have translated some of it into English in a blog note where I try to understand and discuss the circuit diagrams. The note is "in work": SBB Historic: Schaltplan two circuit diagrams of the Ce 6/8 III crocodile (here) (Disclaimer)

[1] Krokodile, Legendäre Schweizer Elektroloks by Beat Moser and Peter Pfeiffer. 2.2017. A full 100 page magazine. Just wonderful.
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Offline Unholz  
#6 Posted : 28 March 2020 11:11:15(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,219
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: aclassifier Go to Quoted Post

I have been thinking, maybe the ticking at stand-still might be from a paper logging mechanism? I read that the clock logged events on paper from the Integra-Signum safety system.

Oh yes, this is certainly true. ThumpUp I remember the recording paper rolls in the Hasler speedometers from my youth when it was still easily possible to sit next to the driver/engineer or behind him in some SBB railcar types (namely the "Red Arrows", the BDe 4/4 and RBe 4/4). The paper had to be exchanged from time to time. I don't remember whether this was after every driver shift change or when the direction changed or simply when the registration paper was full.

BTW, the registration paper was always removed and confiscated by the police immediately after every accident or derailment because it contained the necessary information about the speed of the train.

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Offline aclassifier  
#7 Posted : 28 March 2020 11:30:58(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Trondheim
@Unholz - Always nice with some remembering :-) Thanks!
Online Tom Jessop  
#8 Posted : 29 March 2020 07:39:09(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 843
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia



The Hasler recorders used a roll of waxed paper which recorded speed , engine notch position , brake pipe pressure and operation , use of whistle , vigilance operation & something else which I cannot remember . Air pressure from different sensors then caused needles to operate across the waxed paper .A roll of paper would possibly last a month or more depending on locomotive use , the roll would be checked each time the engine would be prepped & if the tell tail on the tape was showing a fitter would be advised to come & put a new on in the recorder . Although a speedo is in every cab only one would have the tape facility mounted in it . this is only for double ended engines .





Cheers Tom in Oz .
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Offline aclassifier  
#9 Posted : 29 March 2020 12:15:00(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post

The Hasler recorders used a roll of waxed paper which recorded speed , engine notch position , brake pipe pressure and operation , use of whistle , vigilance operation & something else which I cannot remember . Air pressure from different sensors then caused needles to operate across the waxed paper .A roll of paper would possibly last a month or more depending on locomotive use , the roll would be checked each time the engine would be prepped & if the tell tail on the tape was showing a fitter would be advised to come & put a new on in the recorder . Although a speedo is in every cab only one would have the tape facility mounted in it . this is only for double ended engines
Cheers Tom in Oz .

Thanks, Tom in Oz! Very interesting! This is really fantastic!

I wish we could find a picture out there!(?)

Would there be one hand/arm with a needle, one for each value, that could cross each other? One on top of the other, in a way? And for a simultaneous change for all they would draw slightly curved lines, like 3 mm below each other?

Would they draw a line by being continuously pressed against the wax, or would they be pushed regularly?

I don't understand 2 and 6:

  1. recorded speed
  2. engine notch position
  3. brake pipe pressure
  4. brake pipe operation
  5. use of whistle
  6. vigilance operation
  7. some other parameter

I remember seing the logging instruments at the transformer station I grew up by, since my father worked there, that these instruments had ink. I think these had been mounted around 1952, and they were in use until around 1980.

Offline Unholz  
#10 Posted : 29 March 2020 12:19:42(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,219
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: aclassifier Go to Quoted Post

  • vigilance operation

  • This is what is called the "Totmannpedal" in German language, liberally translated "dead driver pedal": The engineer has to either constantly or regularly press a board beneath his seat and thus communicate that he is still alive and well. If there is no more pressure on this pedal, an emergency brake is enforced automatically.

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    Offline aclassifier  
    #11 Posted : 29 March 2020 16:09:16(UTC)
    aclassifier

    Norway   
    Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
    Posts: 100
    Location: Trondheim
    Ok! I should have known the vigilance word, because I have discussed (with SBB Historic) at a blog note [1] about the fact that the Märklin 55681 does not have the dead man's foot pedal, which it should have had! The history of when and why is also there.

    [1] Dead man's pedal Standard disclaimer (no ads etc.)
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    Offline Janne75  
    #12 Posted : 29 March 2020 16:25:39(UTC)
    Janne75

    Finland   
    Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
    Posts: 2,681
    Location: Finland
    Hi

    Could that ”2. engine notch position” mean locomotive speed setting? This would be logical.

    Cheers,
    Janne
    Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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    Offline aclassifier  
    #13 Posted : 29 March 2020 16:42:12(UTC)
    aclassifier

    Norway   
    Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
    Posts: 100
    Location: Trondheim
    Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
    Hi
    Could that ”2. engine notch position” mean locomotive speed setting? This would be logical.


    Sounds very right!
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