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Offline avio  
#1 Posted : 13 June 2019 19:36:10(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
Good afternoon
I am facing a particular problem on my marklin layout with last version of signals before the MFX version.
My 3 level layout is all ok and splitted in 3 sections, one under the CS2, and the other 2 under 2 74 boosters. All switches everywhere works well, all signals are on and in the first 2 levels they works all fine a part one or two that are with light on but I am not able to operate them. On the third level this become a full problem, where all the signals are on but I can not operate them.. If I section the third level to only one signsl, then is working fine, but again, if I reconnect the entire 3rd level line, then, the signals remains with light on but without me been able to switch them. What in your opinion can be the cause of this?
Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 20 June 2019 06:55:38(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: avio Go to Quoted Post
Good afternoon
I am facing a particular problem on my marklin layout with last version of signals before the MFX version.
My 3 level layout is all ok and splitted in 3 sections, one under the CS2, and the other 2 under 2 74 boosters. All switches everywhere works well, all signals are on and in the first 2 levels they works all fine a part one or two that are with light on but I am not able to operate them. On the third level this become a full problem, where all the signals are on but I can not operate them.. If I section the third level to only one signsl, then is working fine, but again, if I reconnect the entire 3rd level line, then, the signals remains with light on but without me been able to switch them. What in your opinion can be the cause of this?


Have you tried to swap the wires of the signals?
When i use Lenz system i must swap the red and brown wires to make mfx signal to work.
If not just the lighting shines.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline avio  
#3 Posted : 20 June 2019 14:44:15(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
I will try, but what makes all very strange is that all those previous generation signals were working fine... and now only shine their light and if I replace them in the same position and with the same decoder address with latest generation MFX, then they work well, with no delay or missing switch, just working fine.
But I will give it a try to swap the 2 cables, brown and red and see the result, many thanks
Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 23 June 2019 10:40:21(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Did you solved the problems?
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline avio  
#5 Posted : 24 June 2019 00:30:21(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
Even today I was trying some more options but no changes in the general functionality of the entire system. All apparently is working fineand some signals work, when most of them not... then I push STOP, then wait 10 seconds, start again and I can be facing the same situation like before I pushed the STOP or I can get a different result where most of the signals works well.. and others don’t. The only one that appear to work consistently fine are the 2 MFX that I position on the layout replacing the previous generation signals.
My observation is that marklin signals have always had this problem of not been perfectly working as they should and years agô I read here on one of the discussions, that the trick to make the signals responding again to the CS2 or CS3 was to push the STOP and start again and with this off - on procedure things will go back to normal again. I did follow and I used this trick sometime in my layout when the problem
was occurring, where the signals were on but I was not able to switch them.
So, this problem has been there since... but now has got much worst where some of the signals do not respond and pushing the STOP and START will mainly not work... only sometime getting back to normal.... in the mean time those 2 new MFX signals are working pretty fine, showing no problem what so ever....

Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 25 June 2019 09:27:52(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
It seems there is some disturb by use mfx signals.
Possible PCB fault...
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Gregor  
#7 Posted : 25 June 2019 13:07:53(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 899
Location: Netherlands
I have seen behaviour like this when I connected some more power users to the same booster which was feeding the signals. It was a bit of a lottery which signals would respond and which not.

After dedicating one booster specifically for the signals and turnouts on my layout, the issue was gone.

Not sure what was causing it: power drop due to too many users, or something else. I stopped investigating after it worked...

Good luck,
Gregor

Edited by user 26 June 2019 08:49:35(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling mistake corrected

Offline avio  
#8 Posted : 25 June 2019 14:50:01(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
I believe that you are right on your analysis, even if the booster is telling me a use without train of 1.3 amp that is very normal with in the 3 amp, the signals stop to react.. well, the old one and not even that old, the last version before the MFX release. At 1.3 amp, all the turnout works fine and if I replace those signals with the MFX one, these MFX. are working fine, with no delay or missing switch.
So, I will say that the critical point where we start loosing the signals is at 1 amp. Honestly in my situation will not be that easy to separate areas of exercise under different boosters, considering that one of the goal in my layout was to eliminate as more as possible the use of cables, so everything is basicly mounted on transparent plexiglass, but I will have to find a solution similar to yours I assime
Offline Purellum  
#9 Posted : 26 June 2019 02:59:25(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Possible PCB fault...


Try to read Avio's posts again........... LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 26 June 2019 07:04:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Possible PCB fault...


Try to read Avio's posts again...........

Per.



PCB is the most fault it happens when signals does not work anymore time.
They are sensible.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Purellum  
#11 Posted : 26 June 2019 07:15:14(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
PCB is the most fault it happens when signals does not work anymore time.
They are sensible.


So you think it's a PCB-fault that jumps from signal to signal, and fixes itself sometimes ??? LOL LOL LOL

I must admit I've never seen such a PCB-fault......... LOL LOL LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline blid  
#12 Posted : 26 June 2019 12:33:24(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Per you are usually right, but about 5 years back (or more) the PCB s showed just that behavior. When you started a session you didn't know which signal would work and which wouldn't. The explanation from Marklin was that it had to do with the total number of signals connected (more than 7 as I recall). I gave all my boards to my dealer and upgraded versions were sent back.

The faulty boards shouldn't be sold now but ...

Added:
My memory is not what used to be but I have just checked. After the problem was noticed and fixed the boxes for the signals was printed with a red square and V 2.0 on the left side.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, CS1 Reloaded on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks.
Offline Purellum  
#13 Posted : 26 June 2019 13:06:04(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
Per you are usually right, but about 5 years back (or more) the PCB s showed just that behavior. When you started a session you didn't know which signal would work and which wouldn't. The explanation from Marklin was that it had to do with the total number of signals connected (more than 7 as I recall). I gave all my boards to my dealer and upgraded versions were sent back.


The problem you mention could be a design error or components on the PCB failing; but not the PCB. ( In my definition )

I am BTW sure it was a design error; the signals each "disturbing" the digital signal a little, thus too many signals disturbed the signal too much.

Just a tiny capacitance on the input of each signal would do just this. Cool

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 26 June 2019 13:11:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,545
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
Per you are usually right, but about 5 years back (or more) the PCB s showed just that behavior. When you started a session you didn't know which signal would work and which wouldn't. The explanation from Marklin was that it had to do with the total number of signals connected (more than 7 as I recall). I gave all my boards to my dealer and upgraded versions were sent back.


The problem you mention could be a design error or components on the PCB failing; but not the PCB. ( In my definition )

I am BTW sure it was a design error; the signals each "disturbing" the digital signal a little, thus too many signals disturbed the signal too much.

Just a tiny capacitance on the input of each signal would do just this. Cool

Per.

Cool



The problem described by blid was the very original range of signals that Marklin brought out for use with mfx on the cs1 IIRC. It seems they hadn't tied down the mfx specification well enough, or made a deliberate change to it or the timings of it and those signals wouldn't work correctly. As blid says there was an exchange system to get v2 software in them.

However all the signal ranges produced since then should work correctly, so buying new signals should not give the end user a problem.

Offline blid  
#15 Posted : 26 June 2019 14:27:09(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
When I refer to the PCB for the signals, I include everything on it, including the firmware. I also had the impression that the signals somehow disturb each other. Certainly a design flaw.

Now back to avio's problem. I don't know how to identify the non working PCB. I sure hope that you don't have the very old non working first version. If so the PCBs have to be sent back to Marklin for upgrade. My advise is to check with them or your dealer first.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, CS1 Reloaded on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks.
Offline avio  
#16 Posted : 26 June 2019 14:46:23(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
Marklin has just communicated to me to send all my signals version 2.0 red circle on the box, back to Germany because their decoder need to be upgraded to the latest newer software version.
They did not had much else to say seen the fact that if I sostitute the version 2.0 signals with the latest MFX signals with the same decoder address and positioning them in the same position occupied earlier by the 2.0 one, everything works fine. Now, my genuine intention now is to teplace them all with the MFX one because we have to be sure that upgrade after upgrade in the Marklin World totally made by MFX, will gradually put the 2.0 signals out of work or in the best scenario, having serious problems as I am facing now.
Offline blid  
#17 Posted : 26 June 2019 15:12:10(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thank you for the information avio!

I don't have many signals on my current layout but I don't want to replace them. I have updated my CS2 to the latest version. Haven't run much since. Keep my fingers crossed and hope that the signals I have still works.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, CS1 Reloaded on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks.
Offline Gregor  
#18 Posted : 26 June 2019 16:29:19(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 899
Location: Netherlands
That is interesting. All my signals are version 2 and like reported they suffer from this behaviour.

However they are long time out of warranty. Also I cut the connection to the internal relay because I did not like the clicking noise when switching to and from red signal... Normally this kind of tampering invalidates warranty anyway.

Is this an offical call back?
Offline avio  
#19 Posted : 26 June 2019 21:54:26(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
no no, it is not an official call back, it is just me pushing them to a ‘compromise’ where I accept that the evolution often create problems for those that are using old version equipment, but in this case, my ‘old version equipment’ is is just the last version before the latest, and I paid the same amount of dollars for those 2.0 as I pay for the MFX.
Honestly the problem doesn’t come from us...
above 1.0 amp distributed by the CS2 or a booster I can see that the problem start and at approximately 1.3, 1.4 amp, the 2.0 signal sre lighted up but not switchable... maybe.. and I repeat, maybe after a number of pushing STOP and START AGAIN, some random signals will respond..... obviously this is not acceptable.. especially considering that if replaced by latest MFX signals, everything works well and is responding perfectly.
So, we should all be very glad that Marklin finally has come to produce good, working and stable signals and easy to program and most of everything stable, but I really hope that they will understand that we should not been the only one to pay the consequence of this ‘fast evolution’. So I ask them if they will be able to offer me some decent exchange conditions. Personally the idea to disassemble all my 18 2.0 signals, send them to Goeppinger and received them
back with just a software upgrade, is not a good solid final option. So lets see if they will offer a better deal. All my rother emaining 26 MFX signals are working perfectly fine, absolutely spot on.
Offline avio  
#20 Posted : 26 June 2019 22:05:54(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
Originally Posted by: Gregor Go to Quoted Post
That is interesting. All my signals are version 2 and like reported they suffer from this behaviour.

My one are out of warranty, but I believe that the warranty is important if the couse is coming from us.. in this case I think that it is really mainly an evolution of their research in order to reach an acceptable working system, and now that reach that result with the MFX series... but the last 2, 3 solutions from Marklin did not really work properly, never did under normal circumstances.. They really worked on and off and again, above 1.2 amp of power absorption, they really become totally unstable. so, yes, the solution can actually be to dedicate a booster only for them as it’s been done already, but this for many means redesign and re install an amazing ammount of things.

However they are long time out of warranty. Also I cut the connection to the internal relay because I did not like the clicking noise when switching to and from red signal... Normally this kind of tampering invalidates warranty anyway.

Is this an offical call back?


Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 29 June 2019 08:47:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
PCB is the most fault it happens when signals does not work anymore time.
They are sensible.


So you think it's a PCB-fault that jumps from signal to signal, and fixes itself sometimes ??? LOL LOL LOL

I must admit I've never seen such a PCB-fault......... LOL LOL LOL

Per.



The signal itself works only by change the light.
While decoder in the PCB are main head where there is function by control MM or DCC protocol.
If signal are broken it´s the decoder in the PCB and there is no new part to replacement it.
We call it the PCB like integrated decoder.
There is sometimes faults in the PCB thus there is sensible small details which broken too.

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Purellum  
#22 Posted : 29 June 2019 09:30:52(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The signal itself works only by change the light.
While decoder in the PCB are main head where there is function by control MM or DCC protocol.
If signal are broken it´s the decoder in the PCB and there is no new part to replacement it.
We call it the PCB like integrated decoder.
There is sometimes faults in the PCB thus there is sensible small details which broken too.


Lights are on; but nobody's home ??? LOL Flapper LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline avio  
#23 Posted : 29 June 2019 21:58:59(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The signal itself works only by change the light.
While decoder in the PCB are main head where there is function by control MM or DCC protocol.
If signal are broken it´s the decoder in the PCB and there is no new part to replacement it.
We call it the PCB like integrated decoder.
There is sometimes faults in the PCB thus there is sensible small details which broken too.


Lights are on; but nobody's home ??? LOL Flapper LOL

Per.

Cool

In fact the signsls if taken out from the layout and placed on direct connection to
poer with nothing else absorbing electricity, then they work fine, the programming is solid in the sense that the signal respond perfectly well to changes. the entire process degenerate slowly when the electricity is getting used by other accessories and train internal lights.. slowly the signals start to malfunction in the sense that is starting not to respond up to 1.2, 1.4 power absorption, readable on the CS2, limit where the signals are yes on but not responding at all anymore.
If replaced by MFX signals, everything is back to normal working operation, so, perfectly good.

So far Goeppinger has requested me to send the signsls up in Germany in order to upgrade the software controlling the decoder, maybe... maybe they have optimized this electrical problem, reducing the electric power the decoder need in order to function and continue to function, or something similar to this where the decoder can respond with reduced electrical imput.

Offline Goofy  
#24 Posted : 30 June 2019 01:08:37(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Lights are on; but nobody's home ???

Per.



What a stupid foolish answer!
The signal mast can shine but the decoder does not respons by change the lighting.
Do you understand now?

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Purellum  
#25 Posted : 30 June 2019 09:02:58(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The signal mast can shine but the decoder does not respons by change the lighting.


That's exactly what I wrote. Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
What a stupid foolish answer!


So because you're not familiar with the phrase I used, you find it stupid and foolish ?? LOL LOL LOL

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Do you understand now?


Do you ?? LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Goofy  
#26 Posted : 30 June 2019 09:51:43(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The signal mast can shine but the decoder does not respons by change the lighting.


That's exactly what I wrote.

Per.



The fault are in the PCB where there is wrong.
Not the mast of the signal.

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Purellum  
#27 Posted : 30 June 2019 12:55:46(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Edited: I give up.

Remember Mark Twain. BigGrin

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#28 Posted : 06 July 2019 11:43:55(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Edited: I give up.

Remember Mark Twain. BigGrin

Per.



Give up for damn sake! Cursing
How can you even explain why i must switch the wires red and brown when i use Lenz system by control Märklin digital signal while other accessories like m83 and m84 is working with correct red and brown?

LOL

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline avio  
#29 Posted : 06 July 2019 14:45:08(UTC)
avio

Italy   
Joined: 13/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Florence
This is a very related question..
how can we erogate more electricity to the layout?
Obviously the biggest reason of loosing the signals and changes response and efficiency is the luck of strong constant electricity on the layout...
Any solution? any advice? any tested working option?
Offline Purellum  
#30 Posted : 07 July 2019 09:35:24(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Give up for damn sake! Cursing
How can you even explain why i must switch the wires red and brown when i use Lenz system by control Märklin digital signal while other accessories like m83 and m84 is working with correct red and brown?



No, I can not explain why you do as you do; I don't think anybody can. Laugh

I only use orange wires and Märklin equipment, so I don't have these problems. LOL

And I don't use foul language. Cool

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline cookee_nz  
#31 Posted : 07 July 2019 13:10:17(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Per and Goofy, please respond only to the actual topic with helpful contributions, and NOT to each other.

This tit-for-tat petty bickering is becoming tiresome and it just gets worse with each comment.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Purellum  
#32 Posted : 07 July 2019 13:19:07(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Per and Goofy, please respond only to the actual topic with helpful contributions, and NOT to each other.

This tit-for-tat petty bickering is becoming tiresome and it just gets worse with each comment.


I hope you noticed that I clearly wrote "I give up", mainly in order not to ruin the topic; but then got a direct question asked ?? Cool

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Goofy  
#33 Posted : 12 July 2019 09:29:43(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Give up for damn sake! Cursing
How can you even explain why i must switch the wires red and brown when i use Lenz system by control Märklin digital signal while other accessories like m83 and m84 is working with correct red and brown?



No, I can not explain why you do as you do; I don't think anybody can.

I only use orange wires and Märklin equipment, so I don't have these problems.

Per.


No you cannot explain my problem.
What ever color on the wires.

Blink
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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