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Offline H0  
#51 Posted : 02 July 2019 08:46:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
There is shown an adapter (60124) from 10 to 7 pins. This adapter is only to connect a MS 2 to a terminal 60125/60145.
That's wrong.
The 10-pin side of this cable is not for MS2 only, it can also be used with the MS1.
The 7-pin side is not for terminals only, it can be used directly with any Central Station (1 through 3) and any MS1 trackbox.

You need one 60124 if you want to connect three MS2s to one Central Station 2.


A booster would require an adaptor with a 10-pin male plug and a 7-pin female plug, so in both cases the opposite of 60124. But I assume the booster would not work with the MS2 trackbox even with such an adaptor as both devices have to communicate via the CAN bus. I could be wrong - maybe we'll see a booster adaptor for the trackbox soon.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline woj  
#52 Posted : 03 July 2019 21:10:17(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
A booster would require an adaptor with a 10-pin male plug and a 7-pin female plug, so in both cases the opposite of 60124. But I assume the booster would not work with the MS2 trackbox even with such an adaptor as both devices have to communicate via the CAN bus. I could be wrong - maybe we'll see a booster adaptor for the trackbox soon.


But that's what, pins / connectors wise, the 60145 terminal box is, no?. The fact that Märklin does not say anywhere that it works it does not mean that it wouldn't...? This question is bugging me too, I also find it extremely coincidental that I came here with this question (sort of) after 8 years of break from the forum, and right in the middle of it being the hot topic. And since all of you that need a lot of power run CS-es anyhow, the user base that needs boosters on a non-CS system is small enough not to find anyone to try it out I guess.
Offline TEEWolf  
#53 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:23:09(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
A booster would require an adaptor with a 10-pin male plug and a 7-pin female plug, so in both cases the opposite of 60124. But I assume the booster would not work with the MS2 trackbox even with such an adaptor as both devices have to communicate via the CAN bus. I could be wrong - maybe we'll see a booster adaptor for the trackbox soon.


But that's what, pins / connectors wise, the 60145 terminal box is, no?. The fact that Märklin does not say anywhere that it works it does not mean that it wouldn't...? This question is bugging me too, I also find it extremely coincidental that I came here with this question (sort of) after 8 years of break from the forum, and right in the middle of it being the hot topic. And since all of you that need a lot of power run CS-es anyhow, the user base that needs boosters on a non-CS system is small enough not to find anyone to try it out I guess.


Of course does Märklin say what can be connected to a 60125/60145 Terminal. Just look into the manual.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

At # 4 you see under A that a MS, booster and Connect can be attached. At # 5 you see adapter cable 60124 to reduce from 10 to 7 pin for the terminal. What you need for a 60145 is a CS to start the CAN bus. Or do an own assemblage (perhaps a Banana PI) beside the track box to include the MS 2 by a track box into the CAN bus. The Internet is full of examples how to do it, but you have to know, as it can be done. And most of these articles are in German. Probabely you will find via Google similar articles in English. Otherwise you have to buy a CS.

https://modellbauhuette....n-gleisbox-als-zentrale/

How a CAN bus may exist you see in the Maerklin Magazine 05/2017 page 25 (PDF file page 6 of 12)

https://www.maerklin.de/...setzen-Folge_1_und_2.pdf


CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline woj  
#54 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:37:36(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Of course does Märklin say what can be connected to a 60125/60145 Terminal. Just look into the manual.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

At # 4 you see under A that a MS, booster and Connect can be attached. At # 5 you see adapter cable 60124 to reduce from 10 to 7 pin for the terminal. What you need for a 60145 is a CS to start the CAN bus. Or do an own assemblage (perhaps a Banana PI) beside the track box to include the MS 2 by a track box into the CAN bus. The Internet is full of examples how to do it, but you have to know, as it can be done. And most of these articles are in German. Probabely you will find via Google similar articles in English. Otherwise you have to buy a CS.

https://modellbauhuette....n-gleisbox-als-zentrale/

How a CAN bus may exist you see in the Maerklin Magazine 05/2017 page 25 (PDF file page 6 of 12)

https://www.maerklin.de/...setzen-Folge_1_und_2.pdf


It's not a question of what I can connect to the 60145, but what I connect 60145 to! The documents say a central station. What if I connect it to a track box instead?

Hooking my own CAN devices to any of this is not a problem, and if RocRail can sort the CAN network initialization for me I am all set. But will that be enough for everything to function?
Offline Purellum  
#55 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:45:10(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
The fact that Märklin does not say anywhere that it works it does not mean that it wouldn't...?


Everything was so easy when the world was analog BigGrin

I'm sure Märklin would have told us if it worked the way you want it to, and thus I'm also sure that it won't work.

You can connect all the different things to the CAN-bus; but if they don't know how to talk to each other on the bus, nothing will happen.

A change in the software, an adapter-box as H0 mentioned or some homemade device having hacked the protocol could do the trick.

Personally I would go for an analog solution, using 66045 DELTA as booster or the 6017 booster.

If you want MFX, you can either buy a TAMS boosterlink or build something similar yourself. Cool

Per

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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Offline TEEWolf  
#56 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:45:17(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
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Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
...
- Plug/Cable
Marklins current generation of CAN boosters use a 7 pin device plug, The Trackbox only offers 10pin MS2 support


This is correct, but see the manual for the terminal 60125.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

There is shown an adapter (60124) from 10 to 7 pins. This adapter is only to connect a MS 2 to a terminal 60125/60145. There you also can plug in a booster with 7 pins. Märklin has developed a very sophisticated plug and socket system for the CAN bus with variable pins. But most of the pins are not used for electric connections. They are used to stick a CAN bus always together with the correct devices.


Whats your point??

Neither the 60125 nor the 60124 can be used with the current MS2 Track-boxes nor the MSII-Hub, so why bring those items into the discussion?

Next you will be telling us that, because the 60115 provides 7pin and 10pin connection sockets that both a 60175 and 60653 can plug into it, that all three must therefore work together.


I was writing about the terminal 60125/60145 - nothing else. Of course you have to built your own CAN bus connection to get a track box into the CAN bus. In theInternet I saw plenty of solutions. But a CS is easier to establish a CAN bus. See also my post before.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#57 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:50:07(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Of course does Märklin say what can be connected to a 60125/60145 Terminal. Just look into the manual.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

At # 4 you see under A that a MS, booster and Connect can be attached. At # 5 you see adapter cable 60124 to reduce from 10 to 7 pin for the terminal. What you need for a 60145 is a CS to start the CAN bus. Or do an own assemblage (perhaps a Banana PI) beside the track box to include the MS 2 by a track box into the CAN bus. The Internet is full of examples how to do it, but you have to know, as it can be done. And most of these articles are in German. Probabely you will find via Google similar articles in English. Otherwise you have to buy a CS.

https://modellbauhuette....n-gleisbox-als-zentrale/

How a CAN bus may exist you see in the Maerklin Magazine 05/2017 page 25 (PDF file page 6 of 12)

https://www.maerklin.de/...setzen-Folge_1_und_2.pdf


It's not a question of what I can connect to the 60145, but what I connect 60145 to! The documents say a central station. What if I connect it to a track box instead?

Hooking my own CAN devices to any of this is not a problem, and if RocRail can sort the CAN network initialization for me I am all set. But will that be enough for everything to function?


Why do you not study the description of Modellbauhuette - from my link?


"Construction of a BananaPi CAN interface for the use of the Märklin track box as a control centre"

...

"Control of the model railway via the PC with
- RockRail
- CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- other model railway control software
Programming of mfx and DCC decoders with the CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- Full access to all mfx settings
Integration of the Banana Pi CAN interface into a CAN digital railway (CdB) infrastructure (only passive CdB components such as StartPunkt, SpielPunkt are supported). Active CdB components (track reporters etc pp) cannot be used without CC cuts."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Or do you want something else?

Here I found a technical description (abstract) of a CAN bus, "a multi-master, message broadcast system" (well not a protocol), by Texas Instrument and yes it is in English.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa101b/sloa101b.pdf
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline woj  
#58 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:54:30(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
I'm sure Märklin would have told us if it worked the way you want it to, and thus I'm also sure that it won't work.


Probably :( On the other hand, the marketing assumption is that people that need lots of power means they build large layouts, means they accumulated truck loads of equipment, means they are rich, means they will buy a CS or already have one. What's the point telling them they can use the booster with a track box and non-Märklin / non-profitable software like RocRail?
Offline Purellum  
#59 Posted : 03 July 2019 23:01:02(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
What's the point telling them they can use the booster with a track box and non-Märklin / non-profitable software like RocRail?


Or; what's the point making a software that works as you want it to, and then not tell anybody about it? Cool

Or even; what's the point making a software that works as you want it to, and then have fewer customers buying a CS3? BigGrin

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
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Offline woj  
#60 Posted : 03 July 2019 23:05:38(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Or do you want something else?


The particulars of how to connect RocRail or anything else to the Märklin CAN-bus is not my concern, I know it is doable (but thanks for the links anyhow). Today I made an experiment with RocRail and one of my Linux SocketCAN interfaces I use for my car stuff to see that I can make RocRail talk Märklin-CAN through that interface (even though I have no trains / tracks / track boxes or anything train related). No Banana PIs necessary (though I also have a device of an equivalent functionality that I also use for my car projects).

What I need to know if all / any of these non-CS solutions will be able to deal with a native Märklin booster connected to a track box instead of a CS. Nothing more, nothing less. And it's not really included in any of those links, or is it?
Offline Minok  
#61 Posted : 03 July 2019 23:15:06(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,047
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post



"Construction of a BananaPi CAN interface for the use of the Märklin track box as a control centre"

...

"Control of the model railway via the PC with
- RockRail
- CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- other model railway control software
Programming of mfx and DCC decoders with the CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- Full access to all mfx settings
Integration of the Banana Pi CAN interface into a CAN digital railway (CdB) infrastructure (only passive CdB components such as StartPunkt, SpielPunkt are supported). Active CdB components (track reporters etc pp) cannot be used without CC cuts."


Yep, thats the sort of route I'm trying first, as I want to experiment to see if I can get it to work, and as having a PC to control things makes much of the CS redundant, given its price.

My starting point was this Stummi topic: https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=160500

The details, by this particular BananaPi daughter card developer, in English, are here: http://lnxpps.de/bpie/

The BananaPi, having the hardware to signal CANbus via its CAN contoller, is controlled by its software and via the daughtercard, routes things out onto the Märklin CANbus.

The key is that something on the CAN Bus has to be the 'controller', and the BananPi can be that controler (or a CS can be the controller, etc). Not everything that you can plug into the CAN Bus can be the controller, obviously.

Now I have to find time this summer to put the kit together and plug it into the track box.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline TEEWolf  
#62 Posted : 04 July 2019 00:56:36(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post

What I need to know if all / any of these non-CS solutions will be able to deal with a native Märklin booster connected to a track box instead of a CS. Nothing more, nothing less. And it's not really included in any of those links, or is it?


Well, my point is, I have a CS 3+ and no need to built a connection for a track box attaching it into a CAN bus. This you have to do and test by yourself. Theoratically it should function. Why do you not assemble and try it?

Even I found a manual for assembling your own booster.

https://www.stayathome.ch/booster.htm

http://luessi.ch/pdf/Booster%20BMD%20V5%20e.pdf

On Stefan Krauß's homepage

http://www.skrauss.de/modellbahn/gbox.html

he wrote as follows:

"In contrast to the Mobile Station 1, the new Mobile Station 2 from Märklin no longer contains the generation and amplification of the rail signal itself, but has outsourced it to the separately available track box (item no. 60112/60113). The MS2 communicates with it via the CAN interface. The Central Station 2 has a similar internal structure. Here, too, the part responsible for rail signal generation (track signal processor, GFP) is independent and is controlled by the main processor via CAN.

For hobbyists, this opens up a completely new and inexpensive possibility: The track box can be used as a mini-center via CAN. It has no intelligence to manage locomotives, points, signals and tracks. However, it independently generates the rail signals not only for the Märklin Motorola format, but also for mfx and DCC. The CAN commands are simple and even documented by Märklin, the track box individually available for about 60 euros. Handyman, what more do you want?"

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#63 Posted : 04 July 2019 01:01:20(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post



"Construction of a BananaPi CAN interface for the use of the Märklin track box as a control centre"

...

"Control of the model railway via the PC with
- RockRail
- CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- other model railway control software
Programming of mfx and DCC decoders with the CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- Full access to all mfx settings
Integration of the Banana Pi CAN interface into a CAN digital railway (CdB) infrastructure (only passive CdB components such as StartPunkt, SpielPunkt are supported). Active CdB components (track reporters etc pp) cannot be used without CC cuts."


Yep, thats the sort of route I'm trying first, as I want to experiment to see if I can get it to work, and as having a PC to control things makes much of the CS redundant, given its price.

My starting point was this Stummi topic: https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=160500

The details, by this particular BananaPi daughter card developer, in English, are here: http://lnxpps.de/bpie/

The BananaPi, having the hardware to signal CANbus via its CAN contoller, is controlled by its software and via the daughtercard, routes things out onto the Märklin CANbus.

The key is that something on the CAN Bus has to be the 'controller', and the BananPi can be that controler (or a CS can be the controller, etc). Not everything that you can plug into the CAN Bus can be the controller, obviously.

Now I have to find time this summer to put the kit together and plug it into the track box.


Please get more information on Stefan Krauß's website, as listed in my post #63 before and keep us informed, please about your efforts.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Purellum  
#64 Posted : 04 July 2019 06:53:22(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Even I found a manual for assembling your own booster.

https://www.stayathome.ch/booster.htm

http://luessi.ch/pdf/Booster%20BMD%20V5%20e.pdf

............................................................................................

Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?


The boosters you've found can not be connected to a CAN-bus............ BigGrin

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline woj  
#65 Posted : 04 July 2019 11:27:07(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Well, my point is, I have a CS 3+ and no need to built a connection for a track box attaching it into a CAN bus. This you have to do and test by yourself. Theoratically it should function. Why do you not assemble and try it?


Because all my stuff sits in the cellar and waits for the time when I can unpack it again, which is not anytime soon. And I do not have either the track box or the booster. I am doing this research to know what to get when the time comes.

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?


It should, right? Just that I cannot get a clear confirmation anywhere that it would. On the other hand, the claim is that RocRail is currently implementing so much of the CS2 CAN-bus protocol that it even fools the Märklin PC software to be a CS2. Or so I read somewhere.

Anyhow, I now have enough information to know the situation. And enough time to get confirmations that things should work at various places. If all else fails, as Per suggests, a Delta booster with booster link is a perfectly good, fully functional solution for quite little $$$.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#66 Posted : 04 July 2019 12:01:22(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,717
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
You can connect all the different things to the CAN-bus; but if they don't know how to talk to each other on the bus, nothing will happen.


Exactly, although the Terminal manual says you can connect a Mobile station and a Booster to the Terminal device it is in the context of connecting that to a Central Station.

Nowhere does it state or imply that a Mobile Station can communicate with a Booster via the Terminal.
Offline clapcott  
#67 Posted : 04 July 2019 12:15:39(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,244
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?

If you had read my earlier post you would know why

Having said that, I do not believe you are asking the right question.
The CAN aspect is the least of the issues.
Peter
Offline Purellum  
#68 Posted : 04 July 2019 12:15:45(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Nowhere does it state or imply that a Mobile Station can communicate with a Booster via the Terminal.


And if they could, some sort of strict hierarchy would be needed, to prevent MS2 <--> booster communication if a CS also was connected.

Otherwise it would be chaos, with boosters on different parts of the layout sending out different signals.... Cool

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline MKOpSeattle  
#69 Posted : 21 August 2019 07:40:21(UTC)
MKOpSeattle

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Seattle, WA
I just acquired a MS2 60657 with SW 3.55 and 60116 to replace the 60653 with SW 2.5 and 60113. I was planning to arrange the loks such that slots 1 to 20 are steam loks, 21 to 30 are electric loks and 31 to 40 are diesel loks. I was able to put a steam lok in slot 1. When I moved the “+” to slot 21 and read in an electric lok, it put it in slot 2. I tried to put a diesel lok in slot 31 and it put it in slot 3. It looks like this MS2 just read in loks sequentially. I was able to put my loks in any slot with my old MS2. Is this an user error or a feature of the SW 3.55? Is there a way to move lok to other slot after it is read in? Also, the “From Loco List” option is crossed out.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#70 Posted : 21 August 2019 12:59:08(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 680
Originally Posted by: MKOpSeattle Go to Quoted Post
Also, the “From Loco List” option is crossed out.


It is crossed out because You have always all locos in the list below. There is no need for this function. I just don't know, why they didn't remove it,

Offline H0  
#71 Posted : 21 August 2019 13:21:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
There is no need for this function. I just don't know, why they didn't remove it,
There still is a need for that function: When the MS2 is connected to a Central Station. I think it is also needed when the MS2 is slave for another MS2.
There are reasons to show this menu item disabled, there are reasons to hide it instead of disabling it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TEEWolf  
#72 Posted : 21 August 2019 17:27:45(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: MKOpSeattle Go to Quoted Post
I just acquired a MS2 60657 with SW 3.55 and 60116 to replace the 60653 with SW 2.5 and 60113. I was planning to arrange the loks such that slots 1 to 20 are steam loks, 21 to 30 are electric loks and 31 to 40 are diesel loks. I was able to put a steam lok in slot 1. When I moved the “+” to slot 21 and read in an electric lok, it put it in slot 2. I tried to put a diesel lok in slot 31 and it put it in slot 3. It looks like this MS2 just read in loks sequentially. I was able to put my loks in any slot with my old MS2. Is this an user error or a feature of the SW 3.55? Is there a way to move lok to other slot after it is read in? Also, the “From Loco List” option is crossed out.


You have now 2 MS 2. Did you back up your 60653 from your new 60657 and your track box 60113 as well? Then you can use your old 60653 again and set it as you want it.

At mine 60653 (SW vers. 3.55) I realized that I can place the loco at any place I want. If I start with slot 2 than slot 1 is shown empty. Next slot I use is e.g. slot 5, so slot 3 and 4 are shown empty, and so on. But for me it is always tedious to count the places where to set the locos. I fill all slots from #1 onwards and select the locos very easily by its identification of number and picture on the screen. Märklin does the loco differentiation very well by its mfx decoder.

The right button with the small white loco on it, you select the locos very quick and easy to the right. With the button "shift (in red) + red knob" twisting to the left, you select the locos to the left. So you must not press the button up to max. 40 times to go through the total row of listed locos. Even with the "shift + red knob" you directly jump from slot 1 to slot 40.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline MKOpSeattle  
#73 Posted : 22 August 2019 07:23:56(UTC)
MKOpSeattle

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Seattle, WA
Unfortunately my 60653 is dead so I only have the new 60657.

I was doing what you did to read in the loks. But no matter where I put the "+", it always put the lok in the first available position on the left.
Offline TEEWolf  
#74 Posted : 22 August 2019 19:35:36(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: MKOpSeattle Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately my 60653 is dead so I only have the new 60657.


Do you know the reason? Mine was dead too. 2 pins in the jack were broken. I renewed the cable (spare part # E146781) and it is working perfectly again.

Originally Posted by: MKOpSeattle Go to Quoted Post

I was doing what you did to read in the loks. But no matter where I put the "+", it always put the lok in the first available position on the left.


Do you put the loco onto the track and then you register it? First, only a mfx locos are allowed to stand not alone on the track. All others don't do that. I would recommend a seperate programming track to assure they are alone on the track. At this situation the loco always choose the first free position at your MS 2. If position one is not taken, it always will take it. Then do the next loco on position 2 and delete the one on position 1. But it only will be free till you register the next loco. If you register or entering directly from the track, it always chooses the first free position at your screen.

What I am doing? Ah yes, I register all locos into the internal database (or transfer them from the CS 3 into the MS 2 database). Delete them from the positions on the screen. Then I reentering the loco out of the database (see page 8 of the NEW manual 60657 for vers. 3.55) onto the position I have selected before at the screen. I think this shall function.

Now make you a bit jealous. My CS 3 has an own menue for selecting all registered locos in various positions. One possibility is to select only all steamer or Diesel or E-locos first and then by Name and others.BigGrin
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline MKOpSeattle  
#75 Posted : 23 August 2019 07:44:36(UTC)
MKOpSeattle

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Do you know the reason? Mine was dead too. 2 pins in the jack were broken. I renewed the cable (spare part # E146781) and it is working perfectly again.


I have thought about that. I looked at the back of my 60653 and it requires a special driver, which I don't have, to remove the screws and open it.

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
What I am doing? Ah yes, I register all locos into the internal database (or transfer them from the CS 3 into the MS 2 database). Delete them from the positions on the screen. Then I reentering the loco out of the database (see page 8 of the NEW manual 60657 for vers. 3.55) onto the position I have selected before at the screen. I think this shall function.


This will work only if I can register my loks into the Database. How do I do that? The MS2 had read in my loks 39017 in slot 1 and 39863 in slot 2. But both are not in the Database.

I also contacted the USA Marklin Digital Consultant and this is his reply:

Hi TS, it seems that you are correct. I looked at my MS2 and I saw that it is like you are saying. The only difference is that you can manually enter a loco (non-MFX) in any slot that you like but the MS@ will enter an MFX loco in the first available slot.

So it looks like you will have to enter your locos in the order that you want.


Rick Sinclair

Märklin Digital Consultant


Offline TEEWolf  
#76 Posted : 24 August 2019 02:50:08(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: MKOpSeattle Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Do you know the reason? Mine was dead too. 2 pins in the jack were broken. I renewed the cable (spare part # E146781) and it is working perfectly again.


I have thought about that. I looked at the back of my 60653 and it requires a special driver, which I don't have, to remove the screws and open it.


I asked Maerklin how to change the cable of a MS 2. Here their answer:

"To open the case [of a MS 2 - remark of mine] you have to remove the rubber strips at the bottom and the knob. Then you will find 5 Torx screws (4 on the bottom and 1 under the knob) to loosen. Then the top shell can be separated from the floor. The cable itself is only plugged into the unit. The strain relief must first be loosened."

I only have to add: a Torx T8 screw driver is needed. Costs about 5 €. Job was done in 10 minutes.


Originally Posted by: MKOpSeattle Go to Quoted Post

This will work only if I can register my loks into the Database. How do I do that? The MS2 had read in my loks 39017 in slot 1 and 39863 in slot 2. But both are not in the Database.

I also contacted the USA Marklin Digital Consultant and this is his reply:

Hi TS, it seems that you are correct. I looked at my MS2 and I saw that it is like you are saying. The only difference is that you can manually enter a loco (non-MFX) in any slot that you like but the MS@ will enter an MFX loco in the first available slot.

So it looks like you will have to enter your locos in the order that you want.


Rick Sinclair

Märklin Digital Consultant



Rick Sinclair is correct. The point is the mfx format. The data for such locos you have not to store somewhere outside of a mfx loco, e.g. in a MS 2, because all the data is always stored into the loco decoder and so always available when you need the data from the loco.

[Hello @RayF -yes- sorry from me to you. You were rigth and I was wrong - a long time ago]

I even could not disable the mfx format in a MS 2. In a CS 3 no problem, just a tickmark in a submenu.

What may be possible, changing locos (who understand the DCC format as well) to DCC and try to get them stored as DCC locos into the database. I really do not know it, if it is working. I do not use DCC in any case. Even my new ESU Diesel with its M4 decoder registered under the mfx format very quickly on my layout. The mfx format makes my life really much easier as anything else.

After all my testing I came to the conclusion, there is no way to sort the database of active locos in a MS 2 in a way a user wants it. Again, it never was and is of my interest to do this at a MS 2. I can all do this very easily with my CS 3. Sorry, and with my MS 2 I always have fully access to the data stored in the CS 3. Have to note, my decision buying a CS 3 was an excellent decision and a CS 3 is always worth its money.BigGrin But please do not misunderstand me, a MS 2 is an excellent controller too, but limited in its capabilities. I am happy to have got them both.Love
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#77 Posted : 21 September 2019 02:03:39(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Addition for updating the software of a MS 2. There is a critical, but important point for an update.

An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.

In so far it shall be not possible updating a MS 2 by another MS 2, which was also updated by a MS 2 before.

(Hopefully, English nativ speakers do understand my English.Smile)
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Minok  
#78 Posted : 21 September 2019 02:19:42(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,047
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Addition for updating the software of a MS 2. There is a critical, but important point for an update.

An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.

In so far it shall be not possible updating a MS 2 by another MS 2, which was also updated by a MS 2 before.

(Hopefully, English nativ speakers do understand my English.Smile)


So if I understand this and can attempt to summarized:
To update the firmware in a Mobile Station 2, from a Mobile Station 2 the process is:

Given a CS, and 3 mobile stations MS2#1, MS2#2, MS2#3:

CS gets the update -> CS Updates the MS2#1 -> This MS2#1 can update MS2#2 -> This MS2#1 can update MS2#3
MS2 #2 -> gets update from MS2#1 -> This MS2#2 CANNOT update MS2#3

Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline clapcott  
#79 Posted : 22 September 2019 10:01:28(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,244
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.


Elabortation please,

What is the "symptom" of this alleged "critical, but important point" you are making ?

What is the environment - hardware/software version as applicable and they actual connection of components.

What is the process (steps performed and/or steps missed) that would reproduce this scenario.



Peter
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Offline TEEWolf  
#80 Posted : 23 September 2019 04:08:38(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.


Elabortation please,

What is the "symptom" of this alleged "critical, but important point" you are making ?

What is the environment - hardware/software version as applicable and they actual connection of components.

What is the process (steps performed and/or steps missed) that would reproduce this scenario.



I really do not understand your questions. This thread is about the software update of a MS 2 and for this you need minimum one CS 2 or CS 3. As well @minok has in his post (see #78) answered your questions about elaboration already.Confused Thanks Minok.

I only can add the recommendation for those, who get the update at a dealer, to make sure the dealer is using a CS for the update and never a MS 2.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline clapcott  
#81 Posted : 23 September 2019 08:21:50(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,244
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.


Elabortation please,

What is the "symptom" of this alleged "critical, but important point" you are making ?

What is the environment - hardware/software version as applicable and they actual connection of components.

What is the process (steps performed and/or steps missed) that would reproduce this scenario.



I really do not understand your questions. This thread is about the software update of a MS 2 and for this you need minimum one CS 2 or CS 3. As well @minok has in his post (see #78) answered your questions about elaboration already.Confused Thanks Minok.

I only can add the recommendation for those, who get the update at a dealer, to make sure the dealer is using a CS for the update and never a MS 2.


An MS2 can update another MS2. (even using the workflow you have outlined)

You are implying that you know at least one situation where this did not work, but do not describe what "not working" looked like.

I ask again "What is the symptom that you observe that leads you to state generically that there is a problem"

Whenever something works in one case but not in another, I like to bisect the issue to try and divine the reason so I can work around it.
(As I did earlier in this thread when the CS2 -> MS2 update caused issues because the CS2 files were incomplete)

However, until I can reproduce a failure I cannot work to break down the component steps.
And before I start down that track I actually need to know what the actual failure (symptom) is.




Peter
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Offline Purellum  
#82 Posted : 23 September 2019 12:12:40(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
As well @minok has in his post (see #78) answered your questions about elaboration already.


No, Minok summarized what you wrote, to make sure we all understood Cool

I would also like to know where you found this strange information, that even my good friend Google don't know about BigGrin

Per.

Cool

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#83 Posted : 23 September 2019 15:24:15(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,545
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
I am wondering if someone got themselves screwed up because they had a track box and ms2 at very low revision, and updated the ms2 from a cs2 which didn't have the trackbox update.

The scenario I see is as follows.

ms2(1) is updated from cs2 with version 4.2.0 software.

ms2(1) works satisfactorily with its trackbox because the trackbox had software at the most recent revision before the cs2 4.2.0 software came out. I have seen this combination work correctly.

ms2(2) has a very early revision software. It is taken to ms2(1) for update, the ms2(2) updates fine and works on the ms2(1) trackbox.

ms2(2) is now taken home and does not work with its home trackbox because the trackbox software is too early for the ms2 3.55 software.

That is the only scenario where I can see a problem occurring.

The solution is to update the cs2 to 4.2.1 software, and then update the ms2's from that. The ms2(2) home trackbox will then get updated.

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Offline Minok  
#84 Posted : 23 September 2019 20:05:53(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,047
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Thats a good guess. The issue description from MS2 to MS2 not being safe did strongly suggest that the MS2->MS2 process may not provide the MS2 being updated with all of the necessary files, where a CS would provide the necessary files. Your saying that so long as the MS2 update is made from a very current (4.2.1+) CS2 or CS3 software (whatever version the CS3 would be), then the MS2 would get all of the necessary files and can thus pass those fills on to other MS2s that it updates.

I'll be sending in my MS2 for an update later this year, and I'd certainly like to know if that MS2 will come back with all of the files it needs to update my trackbox.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#85 Posted : 23 September 2019 20:39:45(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
As well @minok has in his post (see #78) answered your questions about elaboration already.


No, Minok summarized what you wrote, to make sure we all understood Cool

I would also like to know where you found this strange information, that even my good friend Google don't know about BigGrin

Per.

Cool



I read it in a similar thread about the MS 2 3.55 update at the German forum Stummi.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#86 Posted : 23 September 2019 20:48:20(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Thats a good guess. The issue description from MS2 to MS2 not being safe did strongly suggest that the MS2->MS2 process may not provide the MS2 being updated with all of the necessary files, where a CS would provide the necessary files. Your saying that so long as the MS2 update is made from a very current (4.2.1+) CS2 or CS3 software (whatever version the CS3 would be), then the MS2 would get all of the necessary files and can thus pass those fills on to other MS2s that it updates.

I'll be sending in my MS2 for an update later this year, and I'd certainly like to know if that MS2 will come back with all of the files it needs to update my trackbox.


How do you check this?

I did my first MS 2 update via my CS 3. The second MS 2 I updated from the other, freshly updated MS 2. Unfortunately I did not mark them and I do not have a 3rd MS 2 for testing, if the 3rd MS 2 would really get a light update only.

CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#87 Posted : 23 September 2019 20:56:18(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.


Elabortation please,

What is the "symptom" of this alleged "critical, but important point" you are making ?

What is the environment - hardware/software version as applicable and they actual connection of components.

What is the process (steps performed and/or steps missed) that would reproduce this scenario.



I really do not understand your questions. This thread is about the software update of a MS 2 and for this you need minimum one CS 2 or CS 3. As well @minok has in his post (see #78) answered your questions about elaboration already.Confused Thanks Minok.

I only can add the recommendation for those, who get the update at a dealer, to make sure the dealer is using a CS for the update and never a MS 2.


An MS2 can update another MS2. (even using the workflow you have outlined)

You are implying that you know at least one situation where this did not work, but do not describe what "not working" looked like.

I ask again "What is the symptom that you observe that leads you to state generically that there is a problem"

Whenever something works in one case but not in another, I like to bisect the issue to try and divine the reason so I can work around it.
(As I did earlier in this thread when the CS2 -> MS2 update caused issues because the CS2 files were incomplete)

However, until I can reproduce a failure I cannot work to break down the component steps.
And before I start down that track I actually need to know what the actual failure (symptom) is.


I do not think this is a failure. If this is really the case as I described it, I think it is done by Maerklin conciously. They want their customers going into the Maerklin shops. But they do not think about e.g. people are living in New Zealnd about 500 km away from the next Maerklin dealer.

I think, such a light update will working perfectly except it cannot update another MS 2.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Purellum  
#88 Posted : 23 September 2019 21:17:06(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I read it in a similar thread about the MS 2 3.55 update at the German forum Stummi.


In this specific case a link would be really helpful Cool

Not to a PDF showing Märklin wire colors etc. LOL

Per.

Cool
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#89 Posted : 23 September 2019 22:35:32(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,545
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Your saying that so long as the MS2 update is made from a very current (4.2.1+) CS2 or CS3 software (whatever version the CS3 would be), then the MS2 would get all of the necessary files and can thus pass those fills on to other MS2s that it updates.


Yes, I beleive that is the case. I suspect the failure case is due to a specific combination of cs2 software from which the ms2 was updated, and the ms2 that was updated from another ms2 being an early revision of software.

As per says, a link to the source claim that an ms2 cannot be updated from an ms2 is required to ascertain the actual circumstances.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#90 Posted : 24 September 2019 21:22:10(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,923
Maerklin issued an information (in 8 languages!), how to update a MS 2 to version 3.55.

https://www.maerklin.de/...rmationen/update_ms2.pdf


CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline Purellum  
#91 Posted : 24 September 2019 22:19:57(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Maerklin issued an information (in 8 languages!), how to update a MS 2 to version 3.55.

https://www.maerklin.de/...rmationen/update_ms2.pdf




In case you are joking; I don't find this funny !!!

Not one word in this PDF mentions the problem you described earlier Mad

Please provide a link to where you found the information you mentioned:

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Addition for updating the software of a MS 2. There is a critical, but important point for an update.

An update shall only possible between two MS 2, if the already updated MS 2 (and shall be the "update contributer") had received its own update directly from a CS 2 or CS 3 before.

In so far it shall be not possible updating a MS 2 by another MS 2, which was also updated by a MS 2 before.

(Hopefully, English nativ speakers do understand my English.Smile)


Right now, you are just wasting everybody's time Angry

Per.

Cool

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I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
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Offline Goofy  
#92 Posted : 25 September 2019 12:44:51(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Maerklin issued an information (in 8 languages!), how to update a MS 2 to version 3.55.

https://www.maerklin.de/...rmationen/update_ms2.pdf



Thank you for the tip! ThumpUp
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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Offline Purellum  
#93 Posted : 25 September 2019 12:55:21(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the tip


LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL ThumpUp ThumpUp

Per.

Cool
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Offline Goofy  
#94 Posted : 25 September 2019 14:52:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the tip


LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL ThumpUp ThumpUp

Per.

Cool

What??? Teewolf gave us a tip. 👌
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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Offline Purellum  
#95 Posted : 25 September 2019 17:21:27(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
What??? Teewolf gave us a tip.


I find his "tip" an affront to every intelligent member of this forum, given the context.

We got some "strange information", and even if several asked for a link or more information,
all we got was this PDF that has nothing to do with the "information" and doesn't help at all Cool

I found your joke good, that's why I laughed and "liked" your post.

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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Offline Goofy  
#96 Posted : 25 September 2019 18:31:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
What??? Teewolf gave us a tip.


I find his "tip" an affront to every intelligent member of this forum, given the context.

We got some "strange information", and even if several asked for a link or more information,
all we got was this PDF that has nothing to do with the "information" and doesn't help at all

I found your joke good, that's why I laughed and "liked" your post.

Per.



My comment to TEEWolf was not joke.
I did thanked to him for a good tip information about MS2.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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Offline Purellum  
#97 Posted : 25 September 2019 18:56:08(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,167
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
My comment to TEEWolf was not joke.


I'm sorry; but it sure looked like a joke, in this context...... LOL

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I did thanked to him for a good tip information about MS2.


I thought everybody here knew this information already Cool

What I wan't to know is why this information on Märklin's homepage is wrong, according to TEEwolf.

Originally Posted by: Märklin Go to Quoted Post
This update is done either by connecting your Mobile Station by means of a connector box to another 60653 Mobile Station with the current version of software (Version 1.81 or higher) or by connecting it to a 60213-60215 Central Station with the current version of software for that Central Station. If in doubt, ask your specialty dealer if he can do the update for you with his demonstration unit.


Forum members all over the world have spend hours trying to figure out what TEEwolf means,
where he found the information etc.; but all we got was a PDF with well known information Mad

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#98 Posted : 25 September 2019 22:12:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,717
Location: New Zealand
Time to lock this topic - not sure that much good is coming out of it right now.
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