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Offline H0  
#51 Posted : 02 July 2019 08:46:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,465
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
There is shown an adapter (60124) from 10 to 7 pins. This adapter is only to connect a MS 2 to a terminal 60125/60145.
That's wrong.
The 10-pin side of this cable is not for MS2 only, it can also be used with the MS1.
The 7-pin side is not for terminals only, it can be used directly with any Central Station (1 through 3) and any MS1 trackbox.

You need one 60124 if you want to connect three MS2s to one Central Station 2.


A booster would require an adaptor with a 10-pin male plug and a 7-pin female plug, so in both cases the opposite of 60124. But I assume the booster would not work with the MS2 trackbox even with such an adaptor as both devices have to communicate via the CAN bus. I could be wrong - maybe we'll see a booster adaptor for the trackbox soon.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline woj  
#52 Posted : 03 July 2019 21:10:17(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
A booster would require an adaptor with a 10-pin male plug and a 7-pin female plug, so in both cases the opposite of 60124. But I assume the booster would not work with the MS2 trackbox even with such an adaptor as both devices have to communicate via the CAN bus. I could be wrong - maybe we'll see a booster adaptor for the trackbox soon.


But that's what, pins / connectors wise, the 60145 terminal box is, no?. The fact that Märklin does not say anywhere that it works it does not mean that it wouldn't...? This question is bugging me too, I also find it extremely coincidental that I came here with this question (sort of) after 8 years of break from the forum, and right in the middle of it being the hot topic. And since all of you that need a lot of power run CS-es anyhow, the user base that needs boosters on a non-CS system is small enough not to find anyone to try it out I guess.
Offline TEEWolf  
#53 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:23:09(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
A booster would require an adaptor with a 10-pin male plug and a 7-pin female plug, so in both cases the opposite of 60124. But I assume the booster would not work with the MS2 trackbox even with such an adaptor as both devices have to communicate via the CAN bus. I could be wrong - maybe we'll see a booster adaptor for the trackbox soon.


But that's what, pins / connectors wise, the 60145 terminal box is, no?. The fact that Märklin does not say anywhere that it works it does not mean that it wouldn't...? This question is bugging me too, I also find it extremely coincidental that I came here with this question (sort of) after 8 years of break from the forum, and right in the middle of it being the hot topic. And since all of you that need a lot of power run CS-es anyhow, the user base that needs boosters on a non-CS system is small enough not to find anyone to try it out I guess.


Of course does Märklin say what can be connected to a 60125/60145 Terminal. Just look into the manual.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

At # 4 you see under A that a MS, booster and Connect can be attached. At # 5 you see adapter cable 60124 to reduce from 10 to 7 pin for the terminal. What you need for a 60145 is a CS to start the CAN bus. Or do an own assemblage (perhaps a Banana PI) beside the track box to include the MS 2 by a track box into the CAN bus. The Internet is full of examples how to do it, but you have to know, as it can be done. And most of these articles are in German. Probabely you will find via Google similar articles in English. Otherwise you have to buy a CS.

https://modellbauhuette....n-gleisbox-als-zentrale/

How a CAN bus may exist you see in the Maerklin Magazine 05/2017 page 25 (PDF file page 6 of 12)

https://www.maerklin.de/...setzen-Folge_1_und_2.pdf


CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline woj  
#54 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:37:36(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Of course does Märklin say what can be connected to a 60125/60145 Terminal. Just look into the manual.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

At # 4 you see under A that a MS, booster and Connect can be attached. At # 5 you see adapter cable 60124 to reduce from 10 to 7 pin for the terminal. What you need for a 60145 is a CS to start the CAN bus. Or do an own assemblage (perhaps a Banana PI) beside the track box to include the MS 2 by a track box into the CAN bus. The Internet is full of examples how to do it, but you have to know, as it can be done. And most of these articles are in German. Probabely you will find via Google similar articles in English. Otherwise you have to buy a CS.

https://modellbauhuette....n-gleisbox-als-zentrale/

How a CAN bus may exist you see in the Maerklin Magazine 05/2017 page 25 (PDF file page 6 of 12)

https://www.maerklin.de/...setzen-Folge_1_und_2.pdf


It's not a question of what I can connect to the 60145, but what I connect 60145 to! The documents say a central station. What if I connect it to a track box instead?

Hooking my own CAN devices to any of this is not a problem, and if RocRail can sort the CAN network initialization for me I am all set. But will that be enough for everything to function?
Offline Purellum  
#55 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:45:10(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,067
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
The fact that Märklin does not say anywhere that it works it does not mean that it wouldn't...?


Everything was so easy when the world was analog BigGrin

I'm sure Märklin would have told us if it worked the way you want it to, and thus I'm also sure that it won't work.

You can connect all the different things to the CAN-bus; but if they don't know how to talk to each other on the bus, nothing will happen.

A change in the software, an adapter-box as H0 mentioned or some homemade device having hacked the protocol could do the trick.

Personally I would go for an analog solution, using 66045 DELTA as booster or the 6017 booster.

If you want MFX, you can either buy a TAMS boosterlink or build something similar yourself. Cool

Per

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
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Offline TEEWolf  
#56 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:45:17(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
...
- Plug/Cable
Marklins current generation of CAN boosters use a 7 pin device plug, The Trackbox only offers 10pin MS2 support


This is correct, but see the manual for the terminal 60125.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

There is shown an adapter (60124) from 10 to 7 pins. This adapter is only to connect a MS 2 to a terminal 60125/60145. There you also can plug in a booster with 7 pins. Märklin has developed a very sophisticated plug and socket system for the CAN bus with variable pins. But most of the pins are not used for electric connections. They are used to stick a CAN bus always together with the correct devices.


Whats your point??

Neither the 60125 nor the 60124 can be used with the current MS2 Track-boxes nor the MSII-Hub, so why bring those items into the discussion?

Next you will be telling us that, because the 60115 provides 7pin and 10pin connection sockets that both a 60175 and 60653 can plug into it, that all three must therefore work together.


I was writing about the terminal 60125/60145 - nothing else. Of course you have to built your own CAN bus connection to get a track box into the CAN bus. In theInternet I saw plenty of solutions. But a CS is easier to establish a CAN bus. See also my post before.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#57 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:50:07(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Of course does Märklin say what can be connected to a 60125/60145 Terminal. Just look into the manual.

https://static.maerklin....0d0c3e62e31434541986.pdf

At # 4 you see under A that a MS, booster and Connect can be attached. At # 5 you see adapter cable 60124 to reduce from 10 to 7 pin for the terminal. What you need for a 60145 is a CS to start the CAN bus. Or do an own assemblage (perhaps a Banana PI) beside the track box to include the MS 2 by a track box into the CAN bus. The Internet is full of examples how to do it, but you have to know, as it can be done. And most of these articles are in German. Probabely you will find via Google similar articles in English. Otherwise you have to buy a CS.

https://modellbauhuette....n-gleisbox-als-zentrale/

How a CAN bus may exist you see in the Maerklin Magazine 05/2017 page 25 (PDF file page 6 of 12)

https://www.maerklin.de/...setzen-Folge_1_und_2.pdf


It's not a question of what I can connect to the 60145, but what I connect 60145 to! The documents say a central station. What if I connect it to a track box instead?

Hooking my own CAN devices to any of this is not a problem, and if RocRail can sort the CAN network initialization for me I am all set. But will that be enough for everything to function?


Why do you not study the description of Modellbauhuette - from my link?


"Construction of a BananaPi CAN interface for the use of the Märklin track box as a control centre"

...

"Control of the model railway via the PC with
- RockRail
- CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- other model railway control software
Programming of mfx and DCC decoders with the CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- Full access to all mfx settings
Integration of the Banana Pi CAN interface into a CAN digital railway (CdB) infrastructure (only passive CdB components such as StartPunkt, SpielPunkt are supported). Active CdB components (track reporters etc pp) cannot be used without CC cuts."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Or do you want something else?

Here I found a technical description (abstract) of a CAN bus, "a multi-master, message broadcast system" (well not a protocol), by Texas Instrument and yes it is in English.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa101b/sloa101b.pdf
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline woj  
#58 Posted : 03 July 2019 22:54:30(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
I'm sure Märklin would have told us if it worked the way you want it to, and thus I'm also sure that it won't work.


Probably :( On the other hand, the marketing assumption is that people that need lots of power means they build large layouts, means they accumulated truck loads of equipment, means they are rich, means they will buy a CS or already have one. What's the point telling them they can use the booster with a track box and non-Märklin / non-profitable software like RocRail?
Offline Purellum  
#59 Posted : 03 July 2019 23:01:02(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,067
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
What's the point telling them they can use the booster with a track box and non-Märklin / non-profitable software like RocRail?


Or; what's the point making a software that works as you want it to, and then not tell anybody about it? Cool

Or even; what's the point making a software that works as you want it to, and then have fewer customers buying a CS3? BigGrin

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline woj  
#60 Posted : 03 July 2019 23:05:38(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Or do you want something else?


The particulars of how to connect RocRail or anything else to the Märklin CAN-bus is not my concern, I know it is doable (but thanks for the links anyhow). Today I made an experiment with RocRail and one of my Linux SocketCAN interfaces I use for my car stuff to see that I can make RocRail talk Märklin-CAN through that interface (even though I have no trains / tracks / track boxes or anything train related). No Banana PIs necessary (though I also have a device of an equivalent functionality that I also use for my car projects).

What I need to know if all / any of these non-CS solutions will be able to deal with a native Märklin booster connected to a track box instead of a CS. Nothing more, nothing less. And it's not really included in any of those links, or is it?
Offline Minok  
#61 Posted : 03 July 2019 23:15:06(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,972
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post



"Construction of a BananaPi CAN interface for the use of the Märklin track box as a control centre"

...

"Control of the model railway via the PC with
- RockRail
- CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- other model railway control software
Programming of mfx and DCC decoders with the CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- Full access to all mfx settings
Integration of the Banana Pi CAN interface into a CAN digital railway (CdB) infrastructure (only passive CdB components such as StartPunkt, SpielPunkt are supported). Active CdB components (track reporters etc pp) cannot be used without CC cuts."


Yep, thats the sort of route I'm trying first, as I want to experiment to see if I can get it to work, and as having a PC to control things makes much of the CS redundant, given its price.

My starting point was this Stummi topic: https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=160500

The details, by this particular BananaPi daughter card developer, in English, are here: http://lnxpps.de/bpie/

The BananaPi, having the hardware to signal CANbus via its CAN contoller, is controlled by its software and via the daughtercard, routes things out onto the Märklin CANbus.

The key is that something on the CAN Bus has to be the 'controller', and the BananPi can be that controler (or a CS can be the controller, etc). Not everything that you can plug into the CAN Bus can be the controller, obviously.

Now I have to find time this summer to put the kit together and plug it into the track box.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline TEEWolf  
#62 Posted : 04 July 2019 00:56:36(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post

What I need to know if all / any of these non-CS solutions will be able to deal with a native Märklin booster connected to a track box instead of a CS. Nothing more, nothing less. And it's not really included in any of those links, or is it?


Well, my point is, I have a CS 3+ and no need to built a connection for a track box attaching it into a CAN bus. This you have to do and test by yourself. Theoratically it should function. Why do you not assemble and try it?

Even I found a manual for assembling your own booster.

https://www.stayathome.ch/booster.htm

http://luessi.ch/pdf/Booster%20BMD%20V5%20e.pdf

On Stefan Krauß's homepage

http://www.skrauss.de/modellbahn/gbox.html

he wrote as follows:

"In contrast to the Mobile Station 1, the new Mobile Station 2 from Märklin no longer contains the generation and amplification of the rail signal itself, but has outsourced it to the separately available track box (item no. 60112/60113). The MS2 communicates with it via the CAN interface. The Central Station 2 has a similar internal structure. Here, too, the part responsible for rail signal generation (track signal processor, GFP) is independent and is controlled by the main processor via CAN.

For hobbyists, this opens up a completely new and inexpensive possibility: The track box can be used as a mini-center via CAN. It has no intelligence to manage locomotives, points, signals and tracks. However, it independently generates the rail signals not only for the Märklin Motorola format, but also for mfx and DCC. The CAN commands are simple and even documented by Märklin, the track box individually available for about 60 euros. Handyman, what more do you want?"

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#63 Posted : 04 July 2019 01:01:20(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post



"Construction of a BananaPi CAN interface for the use of the Märklin track box as a control centre"

...

"Control of the model railway via the PC with
- RockRail
- CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- other model railway control software
Programming of mfx and DCC decoders with the CS2.exe (please note the license conditions!)
- Full access to all mfx settings
Integration of the Banana Pi CAN interface into a CAN digital railway (CdB) infrastructure (only passive CdB components such as StartPunkt, SpielPunkt are supported). Active CdB components (track reporters etc pp) cannot be used without CC cuts."


Yep, thats the sort of route I'm trying first, as I want to experiment to see if I can get it to work, and as having a PC to control things makes much of the CS redundant, given its price.

My starting point was this Stummi topic: https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=160500

The details, by this particular BananaPi daughter card developer, in English, are here: http://lnxpps.de/bpie/

The BananaPi, having the hardware to signal CANbus via its CAN contoller, is controlled by its software and via the daughtercard, routes things out onto the Märklin CANbus.

The key is that something on the CAN Bus has to be the 'controller', and the BananPi can be that controler (or a CS can be the controller, etc). Not everything that you can plug into the CAN Bus can be the controller, obviously.

Now I have to find time this summer to put the kit together and plug it into the track box.


Please get more information on Stefan Krauß's website, as listed in my post #63 before and keep us informed, please about your efforts.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Purellum  
#64 Posted : 04 July 2019 06:53:22(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,067
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Even I found a manual for assembling your own booster.

https://www.stayathome.ch/booster.htm

http://luessi.ch/pdf/Booster%20BMD%20V5%20e.pdf

............................................................................................

Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?


The boosters you've found can not be connected to a CAN-bus............ BigGrin

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline woj  
#65 Posted : 04 July 2019 11:27:07(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Well, my point is, I have a CS 3+ and no need to built a connection for a track box attaching it into a CAN bus. This you have to do and test by yourself. Theoratically it should function. Why do you not assemble and try it?


Because all my stuff sits in the cellar and waits for the time when I can unpack it again, which is not anytime soon. And I do not have either the track box or the booster. I am doing this research to know what to get when the time comes.

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?


It should, right? Just that I cannot get a clear confirmation anywhere that it would. On the other hand, the claim is that RocRail is currently implementing so much of the CS2 CAN-bus protocol that it even fools the Märklin PC software to be a CS2. Or so I read somewhere.

Anyhow, I now have enough information to know the situation. And enough time to get confirmations that things should work at various places. If all else fails, as Per suggests, a Delta booster with booster link is a perfectly good, fully functional solution for quite little $$$.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#66 Posted : 04 July 2019 12:01:22(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,606
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
You can connect all the different things to the CAN-bus; but if they don't know how to talk to each other on the bus, nothing will happen.


Exactly, although the Terminal manual says you can connect a Mobile station and a Booster to the Terminal device it is in the context of connecting that to a Central Station.

Nowhere does it state or imply that a Mobile Station can communicate with a Booster via the Terminal.
Offline clapcott  
#67 Posted : 04 July 2019 12:15:39(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Why should a booster not function in this CAN bus?

If you had read my earlier post you would know why

Having said that, I do not believe you are asking the right question.
The CAN aspect is the least of the issues.
Peter
Offline Purellum  
#68 Posted : 04 July 2019 12:15:45(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,067
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Nowhere does it state or imply that a Mobile Station can communicate with a Booster via the Terminal.


And if they could, some sort of strict hierarchy would be needed, to prevent MS2 <--> booster communication if a CS also was connected.

Otherwise it would be chaos, with boosters on different parts of the layout sending out different signals.... Cool

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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