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Offline lewistrain  
#1 Posted : 17 April 2019 09:37:49(UTC)
lewistrain

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 77
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
I am looking at an updated ESU ECOS 50000, apparently the screen is a little dim and the buttons a little yellow.
What are these units like? Amd how old would they be roughly?
I am looking to ditch my 6021 and mobile station and move to ESU but am unsure if i should just buy a new ecos for 1000 bucks or try and get an older model for below 400.
LOLOLOL they are just toys, grow up and play with them.
Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 17 April 2019 11:00:32(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Why not go to a dealer and have a look at the CS3 PLus and the Ecos and see which you like best. To save cash if you wish try a CS2 if you can get one.
No idea what old Ecos are like but some on here have them and think they are good.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 17 April 2019 11:34:09(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
The Ecos 50000 is the original one with the monochrome screen. I have Nev's ( nevw Offline ) old one and find it great. Even though it is about 12 or 13 years old now I like the fact that it can be updated to current software versions that are also used on the 50200/50210 versions.

I use mine to control a small (if 1 Gauge can be called small) 1 Gauge carpetbahn. I like the fact that you can have up to 5 locos under control on each side of the split screen.

If you have mostly Marklin locomotives, you might be better off with a used CS2, as the Ecos sometimes has difficulties with programming some of the Marklin decoders. You can get around that by using a Marklin 60671 decoder programmer, but using the programmer requires you to take the decoder out of the loco.

If you have a mix of locos from different manufacturers the Ecos may be good for you. If you can try the Ecos for a few weeks before you buy it I would recommend doing that.
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Offline lewistrain  
#4 Posted : 17 April 2019 13:57:14(UTC)
lewistrain

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 77
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I am looking to do away with any marklin electronics and want to be able to use the really good ESU and also really cheap decoders and not be stuck with motorola stuff.
I am looking to equip all sort of locos with esu decoders and additional pick up shoes for running on c track as i find 3 rail is vastly superior to 2 rail.

I did hear that you can get your ESU stuff updated fairly easily and i have not read about many bad things with ESU stuff, i myself wired up an esu decoder completly backwards and it wasnt hurt at all, very impressed haha.
If the 50000 series is about 10 to 13 years old i might give it a miss and spend the money on a newer one, would hate to have the caps and memory start failing.
LOLOLOL they are just toys, grow up and play with them.
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 21 April 2019 10:34:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: lewistrain Go to Quoted Post
What are these units like?
The Märklin Central Station 60212 was a slightly limited variant of the ECoS 50000.

IMHO ESU did a good job developing the Central Station for Märklin.

The low screen resolution of 320x240 is not state of the art and the units are several years old, but ESU still update the software and version 4.x runs fast and fluent.
The electronics are old, but if you get it for a good price it is well worth a try IMHO.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 21 April 2019 12:29:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: lewistrain Go to Quoted Post
I did hear that you can get your ESU stuff updated fairly easily......


You just need to register the serial number of your Ecos with ESU, you then get access to the software update repository.

Offline David Dewar  
#7 Posted : 21 April 2019 12:53:27(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
The old 60212 is the worst controller I have ever used and thankfully Marklin ditched it and gave us the CS2 then CS3. My old 6021 was better than the 60212.
If buying a controller for the future it makes sense to spend cash on a decent newer model with a screen with good resolution. While the initial cost might be high it will last for years (all mine do anyway) Either a CS3 or and ESU appear to be the best of choices but better to see them yourself. On here you do not get an unbiased view which is normal for any product. Those with ESU say buy it and those with a CS3 say the same.

If it was possible to compare a 60212 side by side with a CS3 or CS2 ( maybe a new ESU but I have never seen one) and the difference is obvious.


Long Haired David on here has a new ESU and as he also likes Marklin and would give you a fair view of the controller.

Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 21 April 2019 23:26:31(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
The old 60212 is the worst controller I have ever used and thankfully Marklin ditched it and gave us the CS2 then CS3. My old 6021 was better than the 60212.


You've been drinking far too much of that Cave water of life, Flash Dave. I have three 60212's (one has been upgraded to CS1R) and one 6021, so you can see where I stand on that statement. The original v1.3 version of the 60212 was incomplete but once it was upgraded to v2.0 it was a good controller, orange screen not withstanding. It had far greater capability to a 6021. If you had your 60212 updated to a CS1R, then it can be updated to the current Ecos software version complete with all the functionality that has.

If lewistrain has the opportunity to purchase an original 50000 Ecos at a cheap price, then capability wise I would say go for it. The only issue might be in regard to buying an older device. Nev's old Ecos, which I have, is still working fine. A friend recently purchased a used 50200 Ecos with the colour screen, and he loves it. If he hadn't bought it, I would have been tempted.

Edited by user 22 April 2019 03:43:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline David Dewar  
#9 Posted : 21 April 2019 23:50:11(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
The old 60212 is the worst controller I have ever used and thankfully Marklin ditched it and gave us the CS2 then CS3. My old 6021 was better than the 60212.


You've been drinking far too much of that Cave water of life, Flash Dave. I have three 60212's (one has been upgraded to CS1R) and one 6021, so you can see where I stand on that statement. The original v1.3 version of the 60212 was incomplete but once it was upgraded to v2.0 it was a good controller, orange screen not withstanding. It had far greater capability to a 6021. If you had your 60212 updated to a CS1R, then it can be updated to the current Ecos software version complete with all the functionality that has.

If lewistrain has the opportunity to purchase an original 50000 Ecos at a cheap price, then capability wise I would say go for it. The only issue might be in regard to buying an older device. Nev's old Ecos, which I have, is still working fine. A friend recently purchased a used 52000 Ecos with the colour screen, and he loves it. If he hadn't bought it, I would have been tempted.


Hi Dave. Having used most Marklin controllers the original 60212 I still say was the worst. Never had it upgraded as the screen and resolution was dreadful by todays standards and compared to the CS2 I am not surprised Marklin ditched it.
However if its the way anybody wants to go then thats fine as we all have to make a choice and I will stick with marklin which has never let me down.. As I keep saying I have no idea what anything from ESU is now like but few on here prefer their stuff to marklin so I suppose it is good .

By now Goofy must be our expert on buying Controllers and I expect another CS3 going cheap will soon be available lol.


I would advise anybody to have a demonstration before buying a controller as advice on here... including mine ...is biased.

Cave water still going well with Easter eggs.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 21 April 2019 23:52:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
If it was possible to compare a 60212 side by side with a CS3 or CS2 ( maybe a new ESU but I have never seen one) and the difference is obvious.
I have a Central Station 60212 and a Central Station 60214 (AKA CS2).
The 60212 is my preferred controller from that couple: more intuitive, more efficient, faster and more fluent. The difference is really obvious.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#11 Posted : 22 April 2019 03:32:31(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Personally I wouldn't bother with a ECoS 50000 and go for the latest one 50210 it has a capacity of 6 amp (not 8amp as previously mentioned on my behalf)

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline David Dewar  
#12 Posted : 22 April 2019 12:05:15(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
If it was possible to compare a 60212 side by side with a CS3 or CS2 ( maybe a new ESU but I have never seen one) and the difference is obvious.
I have a Central Station 60212 and a Central Station 60214 (AKA CS2).
The 60212 is my preferred controller from that couple: more intuitive, more efficient, faster and more fluent. The difference is really obvious.



It sure is obvious. Why don't you just say you don't like marklin as is seen from the foot of every post you make and admit you promote ESU. I have nothing against ESU as I don't have any idea what it does other than the first Marklin CS which came under the Marklin name was poor and looking at the screen it is completed outdated. I would presume however that the current ESU is much better as can be seen by those on here who own them and their decoders appear to be excellent.
I don't however run down other products from other manufacturers but in the case of the 60212 it is reasonable to point out other more up to date controllers that are more suitable for new buyers unless cash is a problem.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 22 April 2019 12:26:56(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
....it is reasonable to point out other more up to date controllers that are more suitable for new buyers......


That's the point - any Ecos including the 50000 and CS1R can be brought right up to date to the current version with the same software capabilities as the current 50210 Ecos.

Hardware will be improved on later versions, but the software capabilities are the same right across the range, so the 50000 can be made as good and up to date as anything out there. I don't see any other manufacturer doing that.
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 23 April 2019 08:00:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
It sure is obvious. Why don't you just say you don't like marklin as is seen from the foot of every post you make and admit you promote ESU. I have nothing against ESU as I don't have any idea what it does other than the first Marklin CS which came under the Marklin name was poor and looking at the screen it is completed outdated. I would presume however that the current ESU is much better as can be seen by those on here who own them and their decoders appear to be excellent.
I don't however run down other products from other manufacturers but in the case of the 60212 it is reasonable to point out other more up to date controllers that are more suitable for new buyers unless cash is a problem.
I have many good Märklin items, but also had some disappointments. With their quality claims they raise the bar themselves. The latest CS2 firmware set to English will show you many German messages again since it supports 32 functions per loco. Back in the days of 16 functions per loco the English translation had finally reached a good level.

Back to the ECoS 50000 and CS1 60212: I assume your CS1 had firmware 1.x or 2.x when you had it. With all due respect I dare say you cannot judge the capabilities of an ECoS 50000 with firmware 4.x when you only tried a 60212 with the very limited firmware 2.x or even earlier.
We know that Märklin makes your tracks and that you always recommend the latest and greatest Märklin controllers because everybody should support Märklin wherever possible. IMHO in some cases specialised companies offer solutions that can compete with the solutions from general suppliers like Märklin.

John mentioned capacity. The ECoS 50000 has 4 A output current.
A CS2 used for H0 gauge with the recommended power supply only has 2.4 A or 3.0 A respectively. In the case of the CS3 it also is 3.0 A.

I like open standards. The ECoS 50000 supports RailCom and you can get an adaptor for LocoNet.

The ECoS 50200 has a better display. The ECoS 50210 has the same display and a higher output capacity.

I like my CU 6021. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I like my Intellibox I. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I like my CU 60212. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I know my CS2 60214. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I don't have much experience with the CS3. My fingers are too thick for the tiny items on the touch screen and I don't like the concept, but it may be suitable for others with sharper eyes and thinner fingers.

This thread asked users to provide their opinions. My opinion: The ECoS 50000 is old, but capable and - at a good price - it could be a good start into the digital railway world.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline ktsolias  
#15 Posted : 23 April 2019 09:08:29(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Athens
Hi

In the past I used the CS2
Occasionally I used the Ecos in the Club
Now I have the CS3 updated to the latest version 1.4 I think
It is really beautiful
All the protocols are there, can run 2rail DCC excellent
Very good configuration for mfx locos without the need to alter CV's directly, easy function mapping
Easy editing of the CV's in fx or DCC
Great control of the layout
May be some time you are in front of German-English but OK nothing is perfect

In the future we will see more and more decoders with the mfx logo from other brands

I think that for somebody who wants to run Marklin locomotives mainly the CS3 is the only way

CS3 plus mfx is what was for the computers the plug-and-play many years ago

Regards

Costas
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Offline David Dewar  
#16 Posted : 23 April 2019 12:00:23(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
It sure is obvious. Why don't you just say you don't like marklin as is seen from the foot of every post you make and admit you promote ESU. I have nothing against ESU as I don't have any idea what it does other than the first Marklin CS which came under the Marklin name was poor and looking at the screen it is completed outdated. I would presume however that the current ESU is much better as can be seen by those on here who own them and their decoders appear to be excellent.
I don't however run down other products from other manufacturers but in the case of the 60212 it is reasonable to point out other more up to date controllers that are more suitable for new buyers unless cash is a problem.
I have many good Märklin items, but also had some disappointments. With their quality claims they raise the bar themselves. The latest CS2 firmware set to English will show you many German messages again since it supports 32 functions per loco. Back in the days of 16 functions per loco the English translation had finally reached a good level.

Back to the ECoS 50000 and CS1 60212: I assume your CS1 had firmware 1.x or 2.x when you had it. With all due respect I dare say you cannot judge the capabilities of an ECoS 50000 with firmware 4.x when you only tried a 60212 with the very limited firmware 2.x or even earlier.
We know that Märklin makes your tracks and that you always recommend the latest and greatest Märklin controllers because everybody should support Märklin wherever possible. IMHO in some cases specialised companies offer solutions that can compete with the solutions from general suppliers like Märklin.

John mentioned capacity. The ECoS 50000 has 4 A output current.
A CS2 used for H0 gauge with the recommended power supply only has 2.4 A or 3.0 A respectively. In the case of the CS3 it also is 3.0 A.

I like open standards. The ECoS 50000 supports RailCom and you can get an adaptor for LocoNet.

The ECoS 50200 has a better display. The ECoS 50210 has the same display and a higher output capacity.

I like my CU 6021. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I like my Intellibox I. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I like my CU 60212. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I know my CS2 60214. It has its limitations but may be suitable for beginners who are aware of the limitations.
I don't have much experience with the CS3. My fingers are too thick for the tiny items on the touch screen and I don't like the concept, but it may be suitable for others with sharper eyes and thinner fingers.

This thread asked users to provide their opinions. My opinion: The ECoS 50000 is old, but capable and - at a good price - it could be a good start into the digital railway world.



That is a fair review of what you have Tom. I cant say anything about the controllers I dont have and can only really comment on Marklin.
Can I say I use my CS3 PLus with a mouse and this works really well. Items on the screen can be enlarged.
I am afraid we will never agree that on a Marklin site it is their products that should be promoted at the same time discussing the merits of others which are different but may or may not be better.
Only Marklin gives me a complete three rail model railway which is why I buy their stuff and others do not matter if they go out of business (hopefully not of course as we need competition and many of the products will be good)
Again a good review of what you have being your opinion.
I am considering the purchase of a ESU loco which I like and I do have a Brawa loco and some of their coaches so I am open to other manufacturers.


Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#17 Posted : 23 April 2019 16:47:38(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
If one intends to run the layout from a computer, the computer interface and richness of the commands set is what matters more than the screen, buttons, Amperage capacity, etc.

Software can make hardware sing but it can also make good hardware unusable.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dickinsonj  
#18 Posted : 24 April 2019 01:50:41(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

Software can make hardware sing but it can also make good hardware unusable.


So very true. ThumpUp

My experience with ESU electronics has been quite good and you can tell that they were the driving force behind the early Märklin software control systems. The current gen ECoS control system looks quite capable but it is not cheap and I don't see any huge advantages over a CS3, especially if you are mostly driving Märklin equipment. If you have a mixed bag of things then the ECoS is a good and maybe the best choice of digital control systems.

I write software for a living and today software is largely written by other software with humans just driving. So I use dozens of software systems to create software for dozens of operating systems. Although I admit that I am probably more adept than the average user, my experience with a 60215 CS2 has been quite positive.

I left the hobby with a 6021 based system and only returned in the waning days of the 60215 CS2. I bought one intending to play around with it for a couple of weeks, register my equipment, get to know it, and then pack it away. My first plan was to throw together a layout and run it from the CS2 at a later date. Well a week later I had all of my locos registered (before any mfx in my roster!) as well as my embedded turnout decoders and it all worked so well and so easily that I just went ahead and built a temporary layout. I have been amazed by how functional and reasonably intuitive Märklin's interface and control system is, even though it is far from perfect.

The CS3 adds some interesting functionality and more modern hardware but my CS2 is working for me now and I would prefer to wait and see if they sort out what seems to me, to be some buggy software in the CS3. But I am fairly certain that they will get there eventually and I find the compatibility with Märklin hardware very good and better than some of the competitors.

This year I got some mSD/3 decoders and a programming stick and did my first current generation digital upgrades. I considered going to ESU decoders because I have used them in the past and they are both quite capable and very configurable. But a full up Lokpilot setup is pretty expensive and I don't feel like buying that and maybe a Märklin programming environment both.

I admit that the mSD/3 programming software is not very intuitive, so I wondered how hard that would end up being. I started with example programs from the Märklin website, just basically played around with the settings and loaded loco specific sounds and in short order my old beauties have the features of a new (and expensive) Märklin model. Märklin could clearly do a better job of documentation but then that is always the last thing that gets done. A friend always says, just keep coding and pray that the money runs out before we get to documentation. BigGrin

Maybe it is because I work in the software industry and know that you almost never get enough time to do your software to the standards that you aspire to, that I cut them some slack. For an inhouse software effort at a MRR company I think they do quite well. Would I prefer more intuitive interfaces, all of my popups in my language and no bugs? Well of course I would, but IMO Märklin does a very good job with their hardware and software in the real world of commercial development, particularly for a toy company!Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#19 Posted : 24 April 2019 02:57:59(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
That reminded me of how I visited Märklin in 1990, showed them software I had written for their 6050 and asked if they would be interested in it. They said, no, as they had no plans to ever get into software!
:-)
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#20 Posted : 24 April 2019 04:09:48(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
That reminded me of how I visited Märklin in 1990, showed them software I had written for their 6050 and asked if they would be interested in it. They said, no, as they had no plans to ever get into software!
:-)

I believe you are talking about control software that runs on a pc. When looking at it that way, you can say that they still aren't into software. They write for their boxes, not for the pc. As they did then, just more advanced.

But yeah, never say never. Wink
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#21 Posted : 24 April 2019 16:42:31(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
they did release control software for PC and Mac as well as apps for mobile.

https://www.maerklin.de/...te/details/article/60512
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dickinsonj  
#22 Posted : 24 April 2019 18:35:19(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
they did release control software for PC and Mac as well as apps for mobile.

https://www.maerklin.de/...te/details/article/60512


Interesting.

That software must never have gone anywhere though because that was a good while ago.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline TEEWolf  
#23 Posted : 24 April 2019 19:25:10(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
they did release control software for PC and Mac as well as apps for mobile.

https://www.maerklin.de/...te/details/article/60512


Well they sold it from 2003 to 2006! And in 2009 they were bankrupt!.Laugh

Think what ever you want, but you visited Märklin 15 years too early.Smile
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Offline Purellum  
#24 Posted : 24 April 2019 19:38:40(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
And in 2009 they were bankrupt!


First Goofy and now you LOL "Great minds think alike, though fools seldom differ." ( Greek proverb )

( https://www.marklin-user...-movie-160-years-Marklin )

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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