 Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Lately I've been having trouble with my C track. Here in Sydney, Australia we've had an extremely hot summer with high humidity. Consequently, the centre pukos are rusting faster than normal and of course the electrical conductivity drops dramatically. I know that a dehumidifier may help the situation, however, my layout is in a rather large room and the cost of running such a dehumidifier would be prohibitive. So, may I ask the question, why isn't the metallic strip that goes through the centre of C track, not made of stainless steel as like the rails of C track?
I'd really appreciate your opinions on this.
Regards
Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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 1 user liked this useful post by Drongo
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Greg, my understanding SS is not the best electricity conductor.
The reason is that conductivity in metals is high is that metals form a crystal lattice where the outer shell electrons are shared and easily move through the lattice. When the lattice has imperfections the flow of electrons is retarded. Stainless steel is an alloy of iron with up to about 25% chromium (and sometimes a small amount of nickel or carbon) added for corrosion resistance. The chromium atoms disrupt the regular iron lattice and increase the chances of inelastic collisions with moving electrons. |
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1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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 Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,202 Location: Kerikeri
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Do what Utkan and I do. We run our trains very very often. We have the sane problem over here. I have general cleaned all my M track rails before laying them and put the smallest amount of oil on them with my finger. Hardly any oil in fact and that helps.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: river6109  Greg, my understanding SS is not the best electricity conductor.
The reason is that conductivity in metals is high is that metals form a crystal lattice where the outer shell electrons are shared and easily move through the lattice. When the lattice has imperfections the flow of electrons is retarded. Stainless steel is an alloy of iron with up to about 25% chromium (and sometimes a small amount of nickel or carbon) added for corrosion resistance. The chromium atoms disrupt the regular iron lattice and increase the chances of inelastic collisions with moving electrons. John, I understand what you are saying regarding the conductivity, but the rails are made of SS and they have to carry the current back, so what's the difference ? |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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 Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,455 Location: Scotland
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Originally Posted by: Drongo Originally Posted by: river6109 Greg, my understanding SS is not the best electricity conductor.
The reason is that conductivity in metals is high is that metals form a crystal lattice where the outer shell electrons are shared and easily move through the lattice. When the lattice has imperfections the flow of electrons is retarded. Stainless steel is an alloy of iron with up to about 25% chromium (and sometimes a small amount of nickel or carbon) added for corrosion resistance. The chromium atoms disrupt the regular iron lattice and increase the chances of inelastic collisions with moving electrons. John, I understand what you are saying regarding the conductivity, but the rails are made of SS and they have to carry the current back, so what's the difference ? Well done for understanding what John is saying lol. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
3 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
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 Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,051
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I believe C track rails are nickel silver. Stainless has other issues too, it doesn't take blackening or soldering well. |
Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.
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1 user liked this useful post by rbw993
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Originally Posted by: Drongo
John, I understand what you are saying regarding the conductivity, but the rails are made of SS and they have to carry the current back, so what's the difference ?
In addition to the rails maybe not being stainless, if they are there is still a difference in how the electrical circuit is completed between the slider over the pukos vs the rails and wheels. On the rails, there are several wheels with flat surfaces in contact with the rail top providing several avenues to get electrical conductivity. With the slider that is limited in pressure to its spring force over a limited contact surface of a handful of small puko spot top spike surface points on the bottom of the slider, there is much less surface area of the slider in contact with the puko, compared to the contact surface of the wheel/rail and forces at play there. That and customers not wanting a shiny visible string of dots or solid rail down the middle of the track in 2019. |
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 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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 The "old type" 1-gauge tracks were all stainless steel ;-) The new "Hübner" type is nickel silver. I think also K-track rails are stainless steel. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Hi Greg,
I am up in Brisbane, so I understand your pain - though we are even more humid up here.
I have a large layout with a lot of hidden staging areas so this was a huge problem for me but don't worry there is a solution!
Clean the studs first and then run a graphite bar over the centre studs. Go with a 2B. If its a small area you could use a lead pencil (which is graphite) but that would be time consuming.
Graphite is conducting and has a clay binder, so the studs get a thin coat which prevents corrosion whilst maintaining conductivity.
2 rail guys use it on the rails, luckily we don't need to since as you know K (newer 22xx series) and C rails are SS and don't corrode. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
1 user liked this useful post by applor
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Hi Eric,
Thanks for the tip. I bought some "Conductive Carbon Grease" form Jaycars and I've found this to be a good product - it's expensive. I've only used it just over a week ago and I can't really say if it's good or not - time will tell, so I'll let you know how it goes.
I'm also experimenting with an ESU loco - their "Engineering Editions", as this loco has some sort of capacitor in it and keeps the power to the motor when it hits a dead spot. Also, I'm in the early stages with it, but so far it's been great - it never stops. |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: David Dewar Originally Posted by: Drongo Originally Posted by: river6109 Greg, my understanding SS is not the best electricity conductor.
The reason is that conductivity in metals is high is that metals form a crystal lattice where the outer shell electrons are shared and easily move through the lattice. When the lattice has imperfections the flow of electrons is retarded. Stainless steel is an alloy of iron with up to about 25% chromium (and sometimes a small amount of nickel or carbon) added for corrosion resistance. The chromium atoms disrupt the regular iron lattice and increase the chances of inelastic collisions with moving electrons. John, I understand what you are saying regarding the conductivity, but the rails are made of SS and they have to carry the current back, so what's the difference ? Well done for understanding what John is saying lol. for your information I don't think the rails are made of Stainless steel they're made of nickel and by the way David I never had any problems understanding me.  John |
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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If the rails would be stainless steel you wouldn't be able to solder any wires onto the rail or the connectors.
John |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,444
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: river6109 If the rails would be stainless steel you wouldn't be able to solder any wires onto the rail or the connectors.John Catalogue sez they are steel ("The Striking Profile: The solid running rails are made of very sturdy, rust-free stainless steel." - Märklin 2009/2010 Yearbook on C track). With K track or C track people usually solder wires to the connectors coz it is very difficult to solder to the rails. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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 Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 1,291 Location: Port Moody, BC
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Originally Posted by: river6109 If the rails would be stainless steel you wouldn't be able to solder any wires onto the rail or the connectors.
John K track rails are stainless steel, but the connectors are not.
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2 users liked this useful post by PMPeter
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 Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 157 Location: Geneve, Geneva
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Yes, ESU EE have large keep-alive capacitors built in. They can run even a couple of seconds without contact... Excellent experience! After seeing it first hand I've added capacitors to all but one of my locos, as much as could fit inside (have yet to find a way to fit a cap in the Ee 3/3). They make a huge difference when the rail was not used for a while. Graphite also helps, I'm running a graphite bar on the studs. Together they make seldom running a comfortable experience.
Roco models with camera also have very large caps buit in and to Zimo decoders you can add a very compact supercapacitor after market. ESU decoder manuals have very good sections on adding caps. On Marklin, well, you have to follow the traces on the board. But to each there is a solution and is well worth investigating.
That said, I also wish the central studs would not rust. It was a surprising, unpleasant finding for a newcomer to M world (me) that the central contact is so unreliable.
Cheers,
.costin |
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector |
1 user liked this useful post by costing
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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I think we can safely say that nearly everyone agrees that the rusting of the centre studs is an important problem and if the centre studs didn't rust we would have a more enjoyable time with our layouts. Sooooo, why can't we ask Marklin to make a better class of C track with rust preventing centre studs. There is usually a thread started each year on this forum asking members what they would like to see from Marklin. Well I think they should forget about making as many new models and start to make a better quality C track. Am I asking for too much ??? |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Crozet, Virginia
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Originally Posted by: Drongo Am I asking for too much ??? No, definitely not.  Fewer gee whiz models and better quality track, turnouts, turnout motors and other accessories would be a great move for Märklin IMO. If your primary goal is to run trains, as mine is, then you need the boring stuff just as much or perhaps even more than all of the pretty models. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Originally Posted by: Drongo Am I asking for too much ??? No, definitely not. Fewer gee whiz models and better quality track, turnouts, turnout motors and other accessories would be a great move for Märklin IMO. If your primary goal is to run trains, as mine is, then you need the boring stuff just as much or perhaps even more than all of the pretty models. Very well said and I agree 100%. How many more members agree with this - perhaps I should start a poll. |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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1 user liked this useful post by Drongo
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Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,571
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I understand your frustration Greg, but I think their main customer focus is a European clientele who has their layouts in well insulated houses with central heating etc. and not us dowunder having layouts in sheds and garages, living in a humid maritime climate...
That being said, my garage goes from 30 degree in summer to a low of 10 degree in winter and so far no rust on any of my C, M or K track.
Best Regards
Lasse |
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives. |
1 user liked this useful post by Danlake
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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I had a suggestion from a friend, however, I don't know if I should do this or not.
Suggestion:- Clean the centre pukos and then apply a small amount of solder on each puko.
What does everyone think, please ? |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,919 Location: Auckland,
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Nope, use the graphite bar as recommended by Eric.
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Joined: 08/03/2016(UTC) Posts: 77 Location: New South Wales, Sydney
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Originally Posted by: Drongo I had a suggestion from a friend, however, I don't know if I should do this or not.
Suggestion:- Clean the centre pukos and then apply a small amount of solder on each puko.
What does everyone think, please ? As an electrician and an amatuer electronics nut from way back......NO! |
LOLOLOL they are just toys, grow up and play with them. |
2 users liked this useful post by lewistrain
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Thanks for the advice. It looks like it's a no goer. The graphite bars arrived today and I've give them ago tomorrow.
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Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Originally Posted by: lewistrain Originally Posted by: Drongo I had a suggestion from a friend, however, I don't know if I should do this or not.
Suggestion:- Clean the centre pukos and then apply a small amount of solder on each puko.
What does everyone think, please ? As an electrician and an amatuer electronics nut from way back......NO! Indeed. Solder is NOT intended or designed to be a friction bearing surface, just to make electrical contacts. And the surface also oxidizes, and its soft. So spending ungodly hours applying solder to the tips of all the track pukos will get you, in some time down the road a mess of track that you may have to throw out (try getting solder back OFF those pukos if you manage to get it to stick to begin with). It just sounds and feels like a bad idea. |
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1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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This thread has been linked from the 'Science of track cleaning' thread so I felt compelled to provide further information.
I have expressed this elsewhere aready but my experience with using graphite on the centre studs has not been sufficient in ensuring good operation.
I've found overwhelmingly that humidity will degrade the centre studs regardless. The only real solution is to keep the humidity low.
I now run a de-humidifier here in Brisbane and set it to 45% and it has solved the majority of my running difficulties.
I do not bother with graphite anymore. I do believe it can be of benefit but insignificant compared to the corrosion caused by humidity. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
1 user liked this useful post by applor
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,202 Location: Kerikeri
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I bought a cheap used starter C track set some time ago, and use it as my table top test bed. One of the tracks had badly rusted puko's. i had to rub emery across them , to make them work, but rubbing a builders pencil across them made a big difference. We have humidity problems here but running trains regularly keeps my M track working ok.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
1 user liked this useful post by dominator
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Since we've insulated both garages and the newly extension (even better insulated) we've seem to manage to keep the rust away from our K-track but here in Perth we don't have many humid days but winter time in the past had had its problems.
Märklin was never prepared to solve the different metal used on their motors and the problem is still apparent today with 3 or 5 pole armatures.
either its a lack of understanding or they are unwilling to do something about it, which could be fixed.
It could be Märklin is saying there is nothing wrong with our tracks if you got problems fix it yourself, there had been several items in the past which had been eventually changed for the better, k-track turnouts tongue, k-track middle heart (fixed it from a moving part to a solid part, switching track, solenoid motors and some locos had problems with their wheels with rubber tyres (not gripping the track).
John |
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Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,091
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Originally Posted by: river6109 Märklin was never prepared to solve the different metal used on their motors and the problem is still apparent today with 3 or 5 pole armatures.
either its a lack of understanding or they are unwilling to do something about it, which could be fixed. If it's not an issue in Germany and their local European market, they probably could care less what the rest of the world thinks.... |
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian |
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