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Offline LongHairedDavid  
#1 Posted : 14 January 2019 15:49:46(UTC)
LongHairedDavid


Joined: 04/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: England, Ipswich
There is one on EBay. Is this 4-6-2 special edition an OK buy for use with the current Mobile Station? Is is listed as DCC fitted addressed as 11.

I am just about to buy my first digital starter set and would like to check compatibility
Long Haired David
AKA David Pennington
A mystified Maerklin Newbie
Offline mbarreto  
#2 Posted : 14 January 2019 18:57:51(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
By the ID number (3711) of the item it seems the decoder only supports the MM format, which is not DCC. As you talk about DCC address, probably the decoder was changed...
Both MM and DCC are supported by the MS2, so it is not expected that won't work.
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline Webmaster  
#3 Posted : 14 January 2019 18:59:10(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
A link to the specific auction would help... Smile

But I think 11 is the default MM address - and that runs fine with an MS2.

DCC is a quite generic term - Digital Command Control - often too used loosely towards any digital model train control, although the NMRA DCC principle is officially registered as "DCC".
The biggest difference is that the command format ("language") spoken among controller & consumers is slightly different.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 14 January 2019 19:21:35(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
You mean 3711 from rails of sheffield?

>3711 on EBAY.CO.UK<

The price is too overpriced.

Price guide between 125 and 150 EUR.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline TEEWolf  
#5 Posted : 14 January 2019 19:22:30(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid Go to Quoted Post
There is one on EBay. Is this 4-6-2 special edition an OK buy for use with the current Mobile Station? Is is listed as DCC fitted addressed as 11.

I am just about to buy my first digital starter set and would like to check compatibility


Hello L-H-D

It does not depend on your MS 2, it depends on the decoder inside of the loco which track formats (mfx, fx, MM, DCC) it is understanding. If it does not understand DCC than you always have the possibility to change it with another one understanding DCC.

Regards

TEEWolf

P.S. Knowing the digital address (here DCC 11) is perfect, because you can program your MS 2 manually for this loco under this address, if it is not yet used by another device. Then just try it with the next one e.g. 12.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 14 January 2019 23:10:00(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
You mean 3711 from rails of sheffield?

>3711 on EBAY.CO.UK<

The price is too overpriced.

Price guide between 125 and 150 EUR.


rails of \sheffield should know better than to describe the decoder as DCC unless it has been replaced - but they don't indicate it has been replaced.

Rails of Sheffield have been dealing in Marklin for a reasonable time and should know what they are talking about instead of confusing people.
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 15 January 2019 15:55:39(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
As Juhan has pointed out, DCC is actually a generic term. When we say "Digital" we actually mean "digital command control". To most model railway enthusiasts I've met from the UK there is no distinction between different protocols. A loco is either analogue, DCC ready or DCC fitted.

Let's not be too critical of this dealer. He just talks a language most of us Marklin enthusiasts are unfamiliar with!

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 15 January 2019 18:43:56(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
As Juhan has pointed out, DCC is actually a generic term. When we say "Digital" we actually mean "digital command control".


No. DCC is an NMRA protected term for a specific implementation that is covered by their RP documents. "digital command control" (using lower case) is not protected and should be used as the generic term.
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 15 January 2019 21:37:28(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
As Juhan has pointed out, DCC is actually a generic term. When we say "Digital" we actually mean "digital command control".


No. DCC is an NMRA protected term for a specific implementation that is covered by their RP documents. "digital command control" (using lower case) is not protected and should be used as the generic term.


Alan I'm not disagreeing with you, but I know from experience that for many people in UK, digital and DCC are interchangeable. The folks at Rails of Sheffield are probably not completely familiar with the fine distinction between NMRA DCC and the Marklin digital protocols.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline TEEWolf  
#10 Posted : 15 January 2019 22:46:03(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
As Juhan has pointed out, DCC is actually a generic term. When we say "Digital" we actually mean "digital command control".


No. DCC is an NMRA protected term for a specific implementation that is covered by their RP documents. "digital command control" (using lower case) is not protected and should be used as the generic term.


Well, Alan do you think, a lot of British people do anything know about a Motorola Märklin (MM) digital format for a model railway? I guess that is RayF wants to express.

Because DCC stands for plenty of abbreviations as you see her:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCC

it even stands for the a "Doppelmayr Cable Car"Confused Laugh and also for "Digital Command Control", of course.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 15 January 2019 23:30:38(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Well, Alan do you think, a lot of British people do anything know about a Motorola Märklin (MM) digital format for a model railway? I guess that is RayF wants to express.


My point is that rails of Sheffield have been selling Marklin for a long time that I know of and SHOULD know the difference between DCC and Marklin digital. I bought a mega start set that contained a cs1 off them many years ago, and that was before the cs2 really got underway. They have been advertising marklin items for a number for years before that, so should have the experience to know better.

Any Marklin owner would not expect an older Marklin loco (and the one in question here is about 25 years old as it has a four digit catalogue number) to be described as being DCC fitted unless the decoder had been changed - in which case I would expect to be told what make & model of decoder has been fitted. Even then I would expect it to be described as 'marklin digital' as a minimum, and preferably as fx, mfx or mfx+ depending on the actual decoder. I could cut them some slack if they described it as DCC if it had an msd/3, mld/3 or one of the Loksound or Lokpilot decoders, but would still expect to be told that the original decoder had been replaced and the make and model of the replacement.

If anybody has any doubts about the confusion not using the right terminology brings about perhaps another example will show it. I bought a 39645 Br64 loco off ebay which had been listed as 'not working' so I got it at a very good price. I figured someone has tried to use it with a DCC system, so tried it with my cs1, which recognised it immediately and and it ran without any trouble, reinforcing my belief that it had been described to someone as 'DCC' when it wasn't. The loco would have been about 6 months old at the time.

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Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 16 January 2019 01:53:47(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

My point is that rails of Sheffield have been selling Marklin for a long time that I know of and SHOULD know the difference between DCC and Marklin digital. I bought a mega start set that contained a cs1 off them many years ago, and that was before the cs2 really got underway. They have been advertising marklin items for a number for years before that, so should have the experience to know better.

Any Marklin owner would not expect an older Marklin loco (and the one in question here is about 25 years old as it has a four digit catalogue number) to be described as being DCC fitted unless the decoder had been changed - in which case I would expect to be told what make & model of decoder has been fitted. Even then I would expect it to be described as 'marklin digital' as a minimum, and preferably as fx, mfx or mfx+ depending on the actual decoder. I could cut them some slack if they described it as DCC if it had an msd/3, mld/3 or one of the Loksound or Lokpilot decoders, but would still expect to be told that the original decoder had been replaced and the make and model of the replacement.

If anybody has any doubts about the confusion not using the right terminology brings about perhaps another example will show it. I bought a 39645 Br64 loco off ebay which had been listed as 'not working' so I got it at a very good price. I figured someone has tried to use it with a DCC system, so tried it with my cs1, which recognised it immediately and and it ran without any trouble, reinforcing my belief that it had been described to someone as 'DCC' when it wasn't. The loco would have been about 6 months old at the time.




Could it be, that even the dealer does not know anything about the decoder?

Searched a little bit in the internet and get an offer (much cheaper as the one at ebay)

https://www.modellbahn-r...-128-der-db-digital-ovp/

It also only says digital and nothing else. But for the price of 130 € perhaps there is some money left for a new mSD/3Smile and you get rid of all your decoder problems.

The Lok Museum writes it has a Märklin decoder - but which one is it, if the loco is from 1995? Probably a Delta one.

https://www.lokmuseum.co...e%20BR%2018.1%20der%20DB

bogobit explains something about Märklin decoders (I guess you know them)

https://www.bogobit.de/decoder/

also stayathome from Switzerland explains and shows something about the C-class

https://www.stayathome.ch/Maerklin_KlasseC.htm

lots of information also from mobo-hgh for the 3711.

https://moba-hgh.de/mode...aten-decoder-chip-701-13

and finally the explosion drawing from Märklin.

https://www.maerklin.de/...elnummer=3711&lang=1

Interesting the Glockenanker- (Faulhaber-) motor. So the price for 130 € I think is not too expensive if it has it inside. Similar to your luck buying a good loco cheap because the seller was not very well informed about the technique.

Or perhaps L-H-D may open the loco and show a picture here in the forum (if he bought it). There are so many decoder specialists they will know which one it will be.
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 16 January 2019 07:39:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
The Lok Museum writes it has a Märklin decoder - but which one is it, if the loco is from 1995? Probably a Delta one.
37xx locos do not have Delta decoders.
Delta decoders AFAIK never had load regulation. LokMuseum indicate load regulation (which could be incorrect for this loco, but most 37xx locos do have load regulation).

Thanks for adding to the confusion anyway.

The loco has a decoder PCB made to fit the tender. Conversion to a new decoder may require extra work for light-bulbs. It's not simply plug'n'play.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Nigel Packer  
#14 Posted : 16 January 2019 13:19:18(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 682
Location: Cheshire, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


The loco has a decoder PCB made to fit the tender. Conversion to a new decoder may require extra work for light-bulbs. It's not simply plug'n'play.



I have a 3711 in mint condition (Koll‘s value is only 90 Euros!).

I‘m not at home at the moment but could answer any specific questions about this loco at the weekend. Tom is definitely right about the decoder PCB, though.

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
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H0
Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 16 January 2019 19:12:57(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
37xx locos do not have Delta decoders.


Good to know, thanks, but it would have been better to get informed which decoder the 37xx series has on board. Unfortunately we are as prudent as before.Smile


Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Delta decoders AFAIK never had load regulation. LokMuseum indicate load regulation (which could be incorrect for this loco, but most 37xx locos do have load regulation).

Thanks for adding to the confusion anyway.


Who gets confused? Not me. If you are confused, why did you not resolve the confusion?


Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The loco has a decoder PCB made to fit the tender. Conversion to a new decoder may require extra work for light-bulbs. It's not simply plug'n'play.


Indeed no decoder is ready for plug & play. You always have to desolder an old one and solder in the new one. Anyway I do not have any problem with a 3711, because Märklin helps solving our problem.BigGrin You can get now the 37119 C-class 18.1 brandnew from Märklin, including smoke, mfx+ and DCC as standard and no soldering. Just out of the box straight on to the tracks and playing.Laugh And we all knew now which decoder the 37xxx has on board.

https://www.maerklin.de/...pdb_pi1%5Bsearchres%5D=1
Offline Webmaster  
#16 Posted : 16 January 2019 20:15:55(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Normal 37xx locos have the 5-pole "high efficiency" motor and c90 decoder with load & speed regulation as well as adjustable acceleration/deceleration.

BUT - the 3711(x) locos from that time is a special case, no load/speed regulation even if it was marked with 5***** on the box, instead they had a Faulhaber high revving DC motor with a gearbox as a drive.
I myself have the 37112 "Olympic" version of it, as well as some older 361x versions, so I know a bit about them... Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline franciscohg  
#17 Posted : 16 January 2019 21:28:38(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
I could swear that my Olympic has a classic 6090 on the tender....will check back home.
BTW, that motor is awesome and runs like heaven, no need to buy newer versions unless you are a smoke fan.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline TEEWolf  
#18 Posted : 16 January 2019 22:08:55(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
I could swear that my Olympic has a classic 6090 on the tender....will check back home.
BTW, that motor is awesome and runs like heaven, no need to buy newer versions unless you are a smoke fan.
Regards


But a 6090 is the C90 decoder.

https://moba-hgh.de/mode...-c90/standard#platinen-2

https://www.maerklin.de/...faq/Technik-Tipp-303.pdf
Offline franciscohg  
#19 Posted : 16 January 2019 22:12:51(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Yes, but it indeed has speed regulation.
I wrote about a "classic" one since Juhan wrote about no load/speed regulation on that deco.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 16 January 2019 22:22:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The 6090 decoders have load regulation with c90 motors, but not with Faulhaber motors.
The code word in the product description is "adjustable" as in "adjustable high-efficiency propulsion". No load regulation.
You can even find that with some 37xxx models. Some models without load regulation were in the catalogue until 2003/04.

The 60901/60905 decoders brought load regulation even for Faulhaber motors. Those locos should have the "fx" symbol in the product description.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline franciscohg  
#21 Posted : 16 January 2019 22:27:39(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Thanks. That is why I didn't mention load, but speed is adjustable. So it is indeed a normal c90 and the absence of load regulation is because of the motor?
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 16 January 2019 22:31:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
So it is indeed a normal c90 and the absence of load regulation is because of the motor?
Yes. Faulhaber motors require a high frequency for load regulation AFAIK - and those old c90 decoders do not support that.
The 6090x family of fx decoders had a special 60905 decoder for Faulhaber motors.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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