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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#1 Posted : 07 January 2019 21:48:25(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 136
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Hi everyone,

I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction here - I have the Marklin 43867 set and the car with the current-conducting shoe short circuits on the Marklin C track hi-speed switches. At first I thought this was a problem with the close spacing of the 3rd-rail nubs to the rails on that particular switch, but I've insulated these nubs using various methods and the car still short-circuits. What is puzzling to me is that no short occurs when the shoe is NOT connected to the lights - in other words, when I cut the wire connected to the shoe, no short circuits happen. But when it is connected, they occur. I've tried using different offset shoes, but no luck.

So, would anyone know what to do next to diagnose this issue?

Thank you, John43867.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 07 January 2019 23:11:03(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,249
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: johnpatrickwack Go to Quoted Post
Hi everyone,

I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction here - I have the Marklin 43867 set and the car with the current-conducting shoe short circuits on the Marklin C track hi-speed switches. At first I thought this was a problem with the close spacing of the 3rd-rail nubs to the rails on that particular switch, but I've insulated these nubs using various methods and the car still short-circuits. What is puzzling to me is that no short occurs when the shoe is NOT connected to the lights - in other words, when I cut the wire connected to the shoe, no short circuits happen. But when it is connected, they occur. I've tried using different offset shoes, but no luck.

So, would anyone know what to do next to diagnose this issue?

Thank you, John43867.jpg


AFAIR, this set has LED lighting and current conducting couplers. The current should be coming from the last coach (with taillights) and should be passed to the next coach by the couplers. The lead from the slider should go to the PC board with the taillights and then from there to the LED strip (interior lights). A cable should then go from the LED strip to the coupler connector at the other end of the coach.

The first test that I am going to ask you to perform is to place just the coach with taillights on the track and see whether there is a short when the coach is on it's own.

As far as the short, there are several possibilities:

1) The slider is acting as a bridge and connecting the pukos (studs) [live] with the rail or metal part of the track [return]

2) The slider is being compressed by the raised pukos and is coming in contact with the wheel contact mounted on the same bogie

3) A short exists somewhere within the lighting system and the slider is where this manifests (the weak point where sparks can be seen)

In cases 1 and 2, the problem should occur whether or not the lights are connected and whether or not the coach is coupled to others or not

In case 3, there may be a wiring issue in the lighting that causes a short, eg a wire is inserted into the incorrect socket and this short somehow manifests itself at the slider. This is likely completely unrelated to the switch track, but may be more noticeable when the slider moves up and down. Check to ensure that the wires from the couplers and axle contacts are inserted into the proper slots in the lighting kits.

You stated that the short does not occur when the slider wire is cut. That suggests a problem inside the coach or with the wiring.

Disconnect the lead from the PC board to the LED strip. Test the coach to see whether there is a short and whether the LED taillights are working.

Let me know the results.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 07 January 2019 23:14:15(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,249
Location: Montreal, QC
If you are using this with the digital entertainment car, I believe that you were supposed to provide power ONLY from the entertainment car, as keeping the second slider on the last coach could cause line signal to reach the output terminals of the function decoder.

Quote:
Important Notes
• Only one pickup shoe may be used in a car consist with
current-conducting couplers. If the 43868 car is used, use only the pickup shoe on this car. The pickup shoes on the car in the 43867 sets must be removed.
• The 7203 coupler must be used at the end and beginning of a train consist with. Danger of short circuit!


Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline johnpatrickwack  
#4 Posted : 08 January 2019 01:42:32(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 136
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If you are using this with the digital entertainment car, I believe that you were supposed to provide power ONLY from the entertainment car, as keeping the second slider on the last coach could cause line signal to reach the output terminals of the function decoder.

Quote:
Important Notes
• Only one pickup shoe may be used in a car consist with
current-conducting couplers. If the 43868 car is used, use only the pickup shoe on this car. The pickup shoes on the car in the 43867 sets must be removed.
• The 7203 coupler must be used at the end and beginning of a train consist with. Danger of short circuit!


Regards

Mike C


Hi Mike -

Thank you for the help! I did forget to mention earlier that I used black electrical tape on the slider to ensure that it wasn't shorting against the wheels, and the shorting occurs even if it's just the car alone with no other cars or locos attached.

With regard to your #3, here's a closeup pic of the LED strip and attached wires. The brown is ground to the wheels, the red goes to the shoe, and the grey/black wires go to the tail lights, so you can see that all wires are soldered and if I disconnect the red wire, no power will get to the tail lights. On the other side of the LED strip next to the other wheel set, there is a red wire that goes to the current conducting coupler and a brown wire that goes to the wheels.

I earlier disconnected the brown wire in the photo from the wheels in an attempt to diagnose this problem, and while the lights continued to work (because they were getting ground from the other set of wheels), the shorting persisted. From the pic, you can see the poor soldering job with the brown wire - that could be a problem possibly - it looks like the circuit board was burned a bit.

To isolate the LED strip and see if the tail lights work and the shorting stops, I think I could cut the red wire and connect it to whichever of the grey or black wires is NOT ground - is this what you would try next?

Thanks, John

IMG_20190107_191912.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 08 January 2019 03:20:26(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,249
Location: Montreal, QC
Can you please take a photo of the other end of the lighting strip? I want to see what is wired at that end. Normally, there would be a red wire going to the connector for the current collecting coupler and possibly a second brown wire to the bogie at that end (return).

Here are a few possibilities:

1) The clipped in part that covers the coupling mechanism and provides conductivity between the terminal and the coupler might be out of place and coming into contact with the return (under the interior details)
- The coach is likely equipped with one of these pieces at either end. Make sure that the top of this is not in contact with the underside of the lighting strip.

2) The brown and red wires at the other end might be incorrectly connected, causing a short under certain circumstances.

The wires at the solder joint are causing a short when the model is assembled. make sure that they do not touch.

This photo (from Stummi) shows what the contacts at the end of the LED strip should look like:
https://abload.de/image.php?img=dscn087414luc2.jpg

The entire coach (when opened): https://abload.de/img/dscn08721ycux8.jpg

This photo (Stummi) shows the black and red leads from the slider and return (once the interior insert has been removed):
https://abload.de/image.php?img=dscn09241lbrxi.jpg
You can see the mounting stub for the current conducting coupler (plate) which could be shorting out against the bottom of the PC LED board.

XXup has an interesting idea of how to leave the slider in place and still isolate it from the interior when connected:
https://www.marklin-user...-43868-Entertainment-Car

What locomotive are you using to pull this coach? Is it an older one with all metal one piece coupler and shaft? If yes, that is connected to the return and could cause a short if connected to a live current conducting coupler.

It is interesting to see that the wires for the taillights go from the PC board to the taillights rather than to the pop-in taillights that Maerklin sells for other such models. You can actually see the mounting sockets for the pop-in design in this photo:
https://www.marklin-user...s/xxup/DiscoCarMod01.jpg

I don't have this set. I have the TEE Helvetia set and WRmz with digital features. I have not as yet opened any of those models but I would have expected to find normal 73401 type LED kits in each coach. Maybe I'll have to take a closer look.

I also have the 43922 Bm234 coach with the taillights. I can look at how it is wired up, but the set might have a different wiring.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline johnpatrickwack  
#6 Posted : 08 January 2019 21:00:23(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 136
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Mike, again thank you for the replies - the links and pictures were very helpful. Attached are pics of my disassembled coach and pics showing both sides of the LED strip, and the wiring matches up with the photos you provided. As a result of disassembling and reassembling multiple times, the red wire to the slider came loose as well as one of the wires to the marker lights (I already removed the brown ground wire). I resoldered all of them except for the ground and cleaned up the solder joints around all the wires, and then tried out the car. Thus far, unassembled, I'm getting no shorting except for the occasional momentary short as it goes over a particular hi-speed switch. So.... success??? I don't have time till later tonight to reassemble the coach and try it out again. If things still aren't working perfectly, I may try attaching the red wire coming from the slider to the red wire at the other end of the strip and see if that does something beneficial or not. But, at present, things are greatly improved.

Cheers, John
IMG_20190108_143452.jpgIMG_20190108_143413.jpgIMG_20190108_143440.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline johnpatrickwack  
#7 Posted : 11 January 2019 14:58:41(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 136
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Mike, my wagon now works as it should - no further issues with shorting. Why? My conclusion is that re-doing some of the solder joints did something good - and it's possible that there was some flex-ing of the LCD strip when the top was on previously - I did notice that the top fits more tightly in one orientation and so I made sure I used the other orientation. At any rate, it's nice to see it working and my $150 that I spent on the wagons is not going to waste. Thank you very much for the help! Without it, I'd still be stuck.

Cheers, John
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 11 January 2019 21:43:15(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,249
Location: Montreal, QC
My guess is that either a wire was shorting against either the terminal or another wire or the plug for the current conducting plate was touching the PC board from underneath. Glad to hear that the issue has been resolved to your satisfaction.

Regards

Mike C
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