 Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Hello guys.
I have a question. I have got 2 locos. BR86 132 and BR212 261-2. They both have the same engine and decoder. At least they look the same to me. Engine is I think 60941 and the decoder 60901. It looks like 60760 set. But unfortunately max speed for both of them is different. BR86 is nearly twice as fast as BR212. I serviced both the engines and it is still the same. Max speed is set up the same in decoder settings. I drive them on MS2. What might be the problem? Is it because of the gearings?
Thanks
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 Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Yes this could be one of the reasons, when programming the faster loco reduce the speed so it aligns with the other slower one., you most probably never run the loco s together. John Edited by user 28 October 2018 12:38:13(UTC)
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 Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,049
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Gearing and wheel size.
On a side note - my wife and I just got back from Cornwall. My daughter was working in Wadebridge and we were visiting her. Very beautiful country!
Roger |
Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.
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 2 users liked this useful post by rbw993
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Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Originally Posted by: rbw993  Gearing and wheel size.
On a side note - my wife and I just got back from Cornwall. My daughter was working in Wadebridge and we were visiting her. Very beautiful country!
Roger thanks rbw993. I agree St Ives in Cornwall is beautiful. I was there as well. Unfortunately mine is in cambs  regards Seb
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Motor spins at X revolutions per minute, which goes through gearing from the motor to the axle causing the axle to spin at Y revolutions per minute, and that axle translates that rotation to forward motion based on the radius of the wheel to a forward motion of Z cm per minute. All of that ignores differences in weight and traction (wheel slippage etc).
Two different locos with different gearing and wheel size will thus move at different speeds for the same motor revolution speed.
If the decoder that drives the motor knows about the ratios and sizes,then the decoder could drive to a set real speed. |
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Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Originally Posted by: Minok ...
Two different locos with different gearing and wheel size will thus move at different speeds for the same motor revolution speed.
If the decoder that drives the motor knows about the ratios and sizes,then the decoder could drive to a set real speed. Thanks Minok. Your explanation is quite simple but very true. But, this gave me thinking. I have delta BR216 which I upgraded with 60760 set. And as I set it up on my MS2 I chose 60760 from the list and attache it to the loco. But the decoder doesn't actually know what loco it is soo it may not work properly on it. Should I change some setting for it? Or should I chose BR216 from the list and connect it with 60760 decoder? What do you think?
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 Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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The 60760 decoder can be adjusted for maximum speed. Just bring it up on your MS2 and find the right menu. You can set an appropriate speed for any of your locos by a simple process of trial and error.
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Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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1 user liked this useful post by RayF
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Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Originally Posted by: RayF The 60760 decoder can be adjusted for maximum speed. Just bring it up on your MS2 and find the right menu. You can set an appropriate speed for any of your locos by a simple process of trial and error.
sorry RayF but this answer is no connection to my previous question. I know It can be changed. question was should I choose loco and attache decoder to it or vice-versa.
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Originally Posted by: Hics Originally Posted by: RayF The 60760 decoder can be adjusted for maximum speed. Just bring it up on your MS2 and find the right menu. You can set an appropriate speed for any of your locos by a simple process of trial and error.
sorry RayF but this answer is no connection to my previous question. I know It can be changed. question was should I choose loco and attache decoder to it or vice-versa. If you choose a loco from the database that has a different type of decoder you might not get the right options on the menus for a 60760. Either choose 60760 or choose a loco that you know has a similar decoder type. Choosing 60760 is the safest bet. The settings for factory fitted decoders do not necessarily match the best settings for maximum speed for that loco type. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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1 user liked this useful post by RayF
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Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Originally Posted by: RayF ....
The settings for factory fitted decoders do not necessarily match the best settings for maximum speed for that loco type. Thanks. It makes much more sense now. Another question out of this topic. Piko 57517-3 is a BR218 196-4. Is it a Marklin type loco? On a picture it looks like but I cant find any information about it. Do you have any link to it? Thanks
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Originally Posted by: Hics Originally Posted by: RayF ....
The settings for factory fitted decoders do not necessarily match the best settings for maximum speed for that loco type. Thanks. It makes much more sense now. Another question out of this topic. Piko 57517-3 is a BR218 196-4. Is it a Marklin type loco? On a picture it looks like but I cant find any information about it. Do you have any link to it? Thanks It doesn't seem to be a current model. I'll try to get some info on it for you. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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FYI, its for this reason that one runs trains down measurement tracks that can, over some longer distance using sensors, measure the actual speed of the locomotives on the model world - so that the software can be set to assign model speeds (in km/h) to controller/decoder speed steps (0-255), so that THEN one can more precisely command a locomotive to drive a specific scale speed in km/h and then also get two locomotives to drive the same scale speed (though at different throttle values). |
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1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Originally Posted by: RayF Originally Posted by: Hics Originally Posted by: RayF ....
The settings for factory fitted decoders do not necessarily match the best settings for maximum speed for that loco type. Thanks. It makes much more sense now. Another question out of this topic. Piko 57517-3 is a BR218 196-4. Is it a Marklin type loco? On a picture it looks like but I cant find any information about it. Do you have any link to it? Thanks It doesn't seem to be a current model. I'll try to get some info on it for you. I found this info on the Piko 57517: PIKO Item Number: 57517 EAN: 4015615575177 type of current: DC railway administration: DB AG era: V kind of measurement: length over buffer measurement: 180 minimum radius: 358 digital interface: NEM 652 directional lights: Yes Special Features: Driver Figure This seems to show that the loco is for DC and so not compatible with the Marklin system. With some further research I found that the correct model for Marklin AC operation is the 57317-3 |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,441
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: RayF I found this info on the Piko 57517 The AC/MM version for Märklin track is 57317. The number after the dash indicates different running numbers. Not all dealers show the digit after the dash in their shops. This matters only if you want to have more than one loco and make sure you get different running numbers. See also (dash versions not listed): http://www.modellbau-wiki.de/wiki/BR_218 |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Thanks to both of you guys for Piko info.
I originally asked about 57517 but now I think it is 57317. I asked seller about a picture from the bottom and it has a shoe so it must be a 57317.
What is this model like? Is it kind of Delta type or a newer version?
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,441
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: Hics Is it kind of Delta type or a newer version? Yes. About 10 years ago Piko used AnDi decoders that were similar to Delta decoders. They switched to load-regulated multi-protocol decoders long ago. Piko locos with NEM652 decoder socket (like this one) come with load-regulated decoders. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia
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Originally Posted by: Minok FYI, its for this reason that one runs trains down measurement tracks that can, over some longer distance using sensors, measure the actual speed of the locomotives on the model world - so that the software can be set to assign model speeds (in km/h) to controller/decoder speed steps (0-255), so that THEN one can more precisely command a locomotive to drive a specific scale speed in km/h and then also get two locomotives to drive the same scale speed (though at different throttle values). Ah, you think just like I do.  But I don't believe that either of us can be held criminally liable. It is a shared disease which we call engineering.  |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Originally Posted by: Minok FYI, its for this reason that one runs trains down measurement tracks that can, over some longer distance using sensors, measure the actual speed of the locomotives on the model world - so that the software can be set to assign model speeds (in km/h) to controller/decoder speed steps (0-255), so that THEN one can more precisely command a locomotive to drive a specific scale speed in km/h and then also get two locomotives to drive the same scale speed (though at different throttle values). Ah, you think just like I do. But I don't believe that either of us can be held criminally liable. It is a shared disease which we call engineering. As well as trying to get your locomotives travelling at the same scale speed I think it's important to understand what the speed of the prototypes was or is, both at maximum speeds and at more typical operational speeds. Wikipedia articles sometimes give you an idea of a locomotive's maximum speed, but the day to day running speeds could be a lot lower than that. I always assume that my trains are going to be travelling at much slower speeds than they are capable of, as there are sharp curves, level crossings, stations, and junctions in close proximity. As an example, for a steam express train I assume that it is going to be travelling at no more than around 80 km/h, so I work out what that speed would give me for elapsed time over, say 5 laps of the main line on my layout. (I have it written down somewhere but I forget where. I'll have to do the maths again!). I then adjust the decoder's maximum speed cv so that with the throttle wide open I achieve that time for 5 laps. Having thus set up the maximum speed for that loco I then typically run it at about 50% throttle. Most people would be surprised how slow it looks compared to "train set" speeds! I have to admit that I have not done this for most my locos yet, so that I have to 'guestimate' the speed based on loco type and train type. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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3 users liked this useful post by RayF
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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia
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Originally Posted by: RayF Most people would be surprised how slow it looks compared to "train set" speeds! Good point Ray. I see a lot of online videos with trains running at crazy fast speeds compared to how their prototypes actually ran. Our trains look better and depict reality better when run at more prototypically correct velocities. One large advantage of digital control is the ability of a loco to run smoothly at low speeds, which is really important, particularly for freight trains. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
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Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 167 Location: England, St Ives
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Ok, big thanks to all of you guys.
Regards
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Hi, I've just experienced a similar situation, 2 loco identical (ÖBB Rh 1020 + DB BR 194) the only difference is the old ÖBB had a large disc rotor and the newer DB had a drum rotor both had been converted with a 5 pole highefficency motor ) 1 x 60941, 1 x 60944, ball bearings but the programmed same speed was quite different, the ÖBB running away at 90km/h, I have now set the DB to 122 km/h and I think this should do.
I assume (without taking the loco apart again, the gears must have a different ratio. same type of decoder
having said that, there will be a new video with both locos ( 1 front and one back up) hauling a freight train with 33 carriages up the hill., this will not be an easy task and some changes may have to occur.
John |
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Originally Posted by: river6109 Hi, I've just experienced a similar situation, 2 loco identical (ÖBB Rh 1020 + DB BR 194) the only difference is the old ÖBB had a large disc rotor and the newer DB had a drum rotor both had been converted with a 5 pole highefficency motor ) 1 x 60941, 1 x 60944, ball bearings but the programmed same speed was quite different, the ÖBB running away at 90km/h, I have now set the DB to 122 km/h and I think this should do.
I assume (without taking the loco apart again, the gears must have a different ratio. same type of decoder
having said that, there will be a new video with both locos ( 1 front and one back up) hauling a freight train with 33 carriages up the hill., this will not be an easy task and some changes may have to occur.
John Hi John, I would not be surprised to find that the two types of motor (LFCM and DCM) had different gearing. The two different sizes of armature (rotor) would react differently inside the magnetic field of the two different sizes of field magnet. Marklin would have chosen gear ratios appropriate to each motor type. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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2 users liked this useful post by RayF
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