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Informative NS and ÖBB plan revival of overnight trains to Amsterdam
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Offline PeFu  
#1 Posted : 19 June 2018 16:08:44(UTC)
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PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,209
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Offline NS1200  
#2 Posted : 19 June 2018 19:36:49(UTC)
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NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Airfares Amsterdam to/from Vienna are so low that it might be difficult to compete by train.
Flight takes only 3 hours or so,by train it takes a full night.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 19 June 2018 23:37:32(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,107
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Airfares Amsterdam to/from Vienna are so low that it might be difficult to compete by train.
Flight takes only 3 hours or so,by train it takes a full night.


It would make sense to go by train for two reasons: -

1. by going overnight you wake up in at the far end 'fresh as a daisy' ready to start work at the beginning of a business day, and get in a full days work before hopping the overnight train back. If you fly then you will get only a half day on site to do any work.

2. With the current attempts to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions, by going by train you are showing yourself to 'be green' to your business associates. If you were to fly the previous day and stay in a hotel overnight to be on site first thing in the morning then the cost isn't going to be that different by the time you add all the costs up.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#4 Posted : 20 June 2018 05:02:04(UTC)
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mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 895
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Airfares Amsterdam to/from Vienna are so low that it might be difficult to compete by train.
Flight takes only 3 hours or so,by train it takes a full night.


Does the three hour flight time include airport hassle and wait times?

That sort of thing can be a deal breaker for me. Plus, I’m developing a phobia to flight. It’s an evil necessity.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline jerdenberg  
#5 Posted : 20 June 2018 08:48:09(UTC)
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jerdenberg

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,011
Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
When it still existed, we (wife and me) very much enjoyed the sleeper service between Amsterdam and Zürich – in 2010 we started our Swiss Rail Adventure by travelling overnight instead of by day, so the first day we arrived in Luzern in the morning instead of the end of the afternoon. Similarly, after a visit to the Märklintage, we travelled to Ulm to take the sleeper to Amsterdam, arriving refreshed in the morning.

As to the comparison with air travel, it seems to me there are multiple aspects that are usually forgotten or ignored. As kiwiAlan mentions, being present in Vienna in the morning implies using part of the preceding day for getting to the airport, flying in cramped seating and constant noise, and travelling to a hotel for an overnight stay, as opposed to travelling to Amsterdam, getting aboard the train, having a good night's sleep, and travelling to the destination. Same-day air travel as an alternative would imply a very early start of the day – not very pleasant either. And then, of course, the air fares can be so low only because of massive subsidy-like advantages – no tax on kerosine, no VAT on tickets.

Jeroen


Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline NS1200  
#6 Posted : 20 June 2018 12:41:19(UTC)
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NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
KiwiAlan: Ever been on a nighttrain? I can tell you i did not wake up "Fresh as a Daisy" from a cramped bed and primitive sanitary on a nighttrain to Sweden,and certainly not in a shape to go straight into a bussiness meeting!

Greenhouse emissions: i have an opinion but that is political on this forum,i can send you a PM if you insist.

We have been to Vienna by air from Amsterdam and that was most enjoyable,i would certainly do that again.
I can recommend visiting Vienna to all of you.

We have been on a train trip from Utrecht to Switzerland and that was very enjoyable too,be it that there was not any sleeping on the trains,the ICE to Basle in one go,thence local Swiss trains with hotel sleeping every night,i can highly recommend that,it straightened my long spine.
For Jeroen,this is the trip we made with some extra days added on:

https://www.treinreiswin...land/zwitserse-panoramas

Flying in general: my length is nearly 2 mtrs (typical Dutchman) which means i am in trouble on a plane. Flying is okay for me if duration is within say 3 to 4 hours,if possible i book extra legroom.
It also means i can hopefully skip a visit to the toilet which is a place totally ignored by airplane designers.
Even KLM,used to tall Dutchmen,are not in a position to infuence airplanebuilders in that respect.
Recently i was on a 737 with 180 passengers and 4 "toilets" of which one out of action,that was no fun.

So,both methods of travel have their positive and negative aspects.

There is no money in it for me in trying to convince you,it is up to you,as always.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 20 June 2018 15:35:59(UTC)
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RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I prefer in general train travel to air travel for short distances. Who wants the hassle of the hours spent queuing at check-in, security, boarding gate, and then at the other end the carousel and security once again? Add to this the fact that airports are usually many kilometres from city centres, involving either a train journey anyway or an expensive taxi ride to complete the journey. I have done London to Paris on both plane and train, and the train was by far the easiest, most comfortable and the quickest, measured city centre to city centre.

Over longer distances the only sleeper train I've ever been on was the VS Orient Express, and much as my wife and I enjoyed the romance, the luxury, and the fantastic atmosphere, I have to admit the sanitary facilities were inadequate. I suppose that a more modern sleeper train, with perhaps en-suite facilities, might be more convenient.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both modes of travel, and I believe that personal choice is the most important factor when both options are physically viable.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 20 June 2018 16:01:57(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,898
Location: Montreal, QC
One of the nice things about night trains (and trains in general) was the ability to meet people. On a train, you would normally interact with the other 5 people in your compartment. In a modern train or plane with row seating, your interaction is more limited to your adjacent seat mates, so the experience is not the same.

As a college student, it was an amazing experience. As a solo traveller or businessman, train travel is no longer what it used to be.
1) You can no longer rest or nap without worrying about your belongings
2) You can no longer leave your belongings unattended in a baggage rack or baggage car
- Bags used to be on the rack above the seats in your compartment. Today, they are often at one end of the coach which can be out of sight.
-Last time I travelled, I had my bags tied to my feet so that any movement would alert me. I did not feel safe enough to leave them unattended to go to the WC.
3) While there has been an improvement in sleeping accommodations for first class travel, couchette cars are still minimal in comfort.

Not that dozing at an airport or in a plane is necessarily any more secure…

Regards

Mike C
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Offline TEEWolf  
#9 Posted : 20 June 2018 18:09:16(UTC)
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TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Airfares Amsterdam to/from Vienna are so low that it might be difficult to compete by train.
Flight takes only 3 hours or so,by train it takes a full night.


It would make sense to go by train for two reasons: -

1. by going overnight you wake up in at the far end 'fresh as a daisy' ready to start work at the beginning of a business day, and get in a full days work before hopping the overnight train back. If you fly then you will get only a half day on site to do any work.

2. With the current attempts to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions, by going by train you are showing yourself to 'be green' to your business associates. If you were to fly the previous day and stay in a hotel overnight to be on site first thing in the morning then the cost isn't going to be that different by the time you add all the costs up.



A 3rd point is that plenty of people (average guess is 30% to 35%) are frightened of flying. By train they avoid it.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#10 Posted : 20 June 2018 19:01:49(UTC)
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TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
KiwiAlan: Ever been on a nighttrain?


Yes, I can tell you it was always very convient between Berlin and Munich, where I used night trains. Even if you only got a sleeper seat and not a full bed. Train was completely locked for security reasons because it stands for about 1 hour somewhere not to be early in MUC and you got your 8 hours sleep.

Quote:
I can tell you I did not wake up "Fresh as a Daisy" from a cramped bed and primitive sanitary on a nighttrain to Sweden,and certainly not in a shape to go straight into a bussiness meeting!

Greenhouse emissions: i have an opinion but that is political on this forum,i can send you a PM if you insist.

We have been to Vienna by air from Amsterdam and that was most enjoyable,i would certainly do that again.
I can recommend visiting Vienna to all of you.


Indeed, but this is a different question and then you should go there by train.BigGrin Best taking a Railjet from Salzburg or Linz to Vienna. Because arriving at the brand new central station (not the CS 3 from Märklin LOL - the real one) in Wien is already a good start for every railroader touring Wien. The Austrian built up a very nice and new station building in their capital.


Quote:
We have been on a train trip from Utrecht to Switzerland and that was very enjoyable too,be it that there was not any sleeping on the trains,the ICE to Basle in one go,thence local Swiss trains with hotel sleeping every night,i can highly recommend that,it straightened my long spine.
For Jeroen,this is the trip we made with some extra days added on:

https://www.treinreiswin...land/zwitserse-panoramas

Flying in general: my length is nearly 2 mtrs (typical Dutchman) which means i am in trouble on a plane. Flying is okay for me if duration is within say 3 to 4 hours,if possible i book extra legroom.
It also means i can hopefully skip a visit to the toilet which is a place totally ignored by airplane designers.
Even KLM,used to tall Dutchmen,are not in a position to infuence airplanebuilders in that respect.
Recently i was on a 737 with 180 passengers and 4 "toilets" of which one out of action,that was no fun.


This is definitely not true, because every airline does its own interior layout, seats, seating, galleys, colours, lavatories, etc. of its planes. This is part of their marketing strategy and very imortant sales arguments. So they have very much influence to the airplane builders, especially if they are the launch customer. It is well know, that the 737 was built by Boeing, but Lufthansa was the launch customer for this model and had a tremendous impact in the layout and technique of this plane in total! you still flying around today. Because the first plane of a 737 started 9th April, 1967, yes 1967 – 51 years ago. LH has taken over the very first 737 in December 1967 for scheduled flights. By the way, meanwhile Boeing delivered at the end of May 2018 totally 10.077 planes of the B 737 to its customers.

Quote:
So,both methods of travel have their positive and negative aspects.

There is no money in it for me in trying to convince you,it is up to you,as always.

That's it - I agree with you absolutely.
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Offline NS1200  
#11 Posted : 20 June 2018 19:40:42(UTC)
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NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Well,gentlemen,we have yet another interesting discussion being rolled out,it seems,great fun!

First of all,there was hardly any waitingtime for our flight to Vienna at Amsterdam Schiphol airport.
We flew in the morning which ment we had the entire afternoon and evening to explore Vienna on the first day.

Secondly, about planes and toilets,i have been on a lot of different plane types in my life and the toilets were all miserable.
So,despite of Lufthansa being a launch customer,the general trend is to put 4 extra passengers in rather than putting in proper restrooms.
Being a man of 2 mrs length and trying to do what a man needs to do on such a toilet is nearly impossible.
As an airplane designer i should feel ashamed of designing such a poor product.

Like sanitary on board of trains,the sanitary in planes is inadequate also.
Who is making these commercials about planetravel where happy people are resting and smiling,and arrive fully revitalised with fresh smelling clothes?
Have been on long flights to the Far East where my first and prime motive was to get a shower,no matter what.

Apart from anything else,perhaps worth noting that the ICE from Utrecht stranded somewhere in Germany on the way,cause said to be a computer breakdown,we were overtaken by local trains and heavy freight trains.
The delay almost resulted in missing our local train at Basle,we catched it,just.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 20 June 2018 20:08:02(UTC)
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TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Well,gentlemen,we have yet another interesting discussion being rolled out,it seems,great fun!

First of all,there was hardly any waitingtime for our flight to Vienna at Amsterdam Schiphol airport.
We flew in the morning which ment we had the entire afternoon and evening to explore Vienna on the first day.

Secondly, about planes and toilets,i have been on a lot of different plane types in my life and the toilets were all miserable.
So,despite of Lufthansa being a launch customer,the general trend is to put 4 extra passengers in rather than putting in proper restrooms.
Being a man of 2 mrs length and trying to do what a man needs to do on such a toilet is nearly impossible.
As an airplane designer i should feel ashamed of designing such a poor product.

Like sanitary on board of trains,the sanitary in planes is inadequate also.
Who is making these commercials about planetravel where happy people are resting and smiling,and arrive fully revitalised with fresh smelling clothes?
Have been on long flights to the Far East where my first and prime motive was to get a shower,no matter what.

Apart from anything else,perhaps worth noting that the ICE from Utrecht stranded somewhere in Germany on the way,cause said to be a computer breakdown,we were overtaken by local trains and heavy freight trains.
The delay almost resulted in missing our local train at Basle,we catched it,just.


Now we are totally off topic. We shall finish it. I know your problem, because I was 1,90 m tall while I was flying quite a lot through the world. Take Business Class and all problems are solved, including the lavatories.

And for your next flight here is an homepage supporting your next trip planning by plane.

https://www.seatguru.com...ines/KLM/information.php

and for your next trip to Wien:

https://www.meine-flugze...zeit/amsterdam-nach-wien

Get a view on the commuting airlines between Amsterdam an Wien. You got 7 choices!!!
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Offline NS1200  
#13 Posted : 20 June 2018 21:05:06(UTC)
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NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Deleted.

Edited by user 22 June 2018 17:18:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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