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Offline skeeterbuck  
#1 Posted : 13 April 2018 16:46:49(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 523
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
I realize for collectors of older and vintage Märklin items that any paint touch-up is a frowned upon. I more concerned from items from the 1970's and newer. Do minor paint touch ups have much effect on the price if they are well done? If so to what percentage do they reduce the price. I trying to get an idea so I don't overpay when I buy.

Thanks! Chuck
Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 13 April 2018 17:30:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
I realize for collectors of older and vintage Märklin items that any paint touch-up is a frowned upon. I more concerned from items from the 1970's and newer. Do minor paint touch ups have much effect on the price if they are well done? If so to what percentage do they reduce the price. I trying to get an idea so I don't overpay when I buy.

Thanks! Chuck


Well, the factory does paint touch-ups, and some of the detail stripes are hand painted as well.

Things like circular banding on steam locos is hand painted with a special jig in the factory, that rotates the body so the brush is kept still.

However these are all done with the original factory paint, so shouldn't be evident as a touch up.

Personally if it has been done well with paint close enough to the original that it is hard to see, then I wouldn't worry, but if you are looking for an investment then you need to view the item before purchase.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#3 Posted : 13 April 2018 22:53:30(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Chuck,

Vintage items that have had minor touch-ups are not vintage any more, right? Those touch-ups were done decades after the locos were produced and irrevocably destroyed their original condition. Some people believe that the original condition old locos or rolling stock can be 'restored', but that's an illusion. Can they still have a real value as collector's items? Obviously not, though some people pay for items that look perfect but aren't original.

It's true that some details on Märklin locos, such as the rings on the boilers of steam locos, are painted by hand at the factory, even nowadays. For example, the yellow and brown stripes on the front sides of every 3063 were completed like that, but that's not a touch-up because this technique was part of the original manufacturing process. Some decades ago, when Märklin still had stocks of old paint, the company's repair service could repaint scratches on damaged locos. If that can be documented with an old invoice from the Märklin company for that job, it counts as original, but so far, I haven't seen such an invoice yet.

Touch-ups that are not original became popular after the first collector's catalogues for vintage trains were published in the 1970s. Before that, models trains had been seen as toys, and there were very few people who bought them without using them. Nearly every Märklin vintage loco made before 1970 was used on a layout (or carpet layout), so it's highly improbable that most of the perfect-looking locos from the 1950s or '60s that are sold on Ebay are still original. When prices for old model trains rose in the 1980s and '90s, many people started faking them, either with the intent of selling them at a high price or to 'increase' the value of their own collection (which is a fallacy). Some collectors were such perfectionists that they could not tolerate a tiny spot where the paint had come off and repainted it, thereby reducing the value of the vintage item by about 50 per cent.

Often those 'touch-ups' were badly done because the original paint was not available, so you can tell if you have a close look at the sellers' photos on Ebay. Sometimes, there are spots that are not visible at all to the naked eye but show up under a UV lamp; such items might have been 'restored' by the Märklin repair service or by professionals such as Ritter, though there's also the chance that the original paint job was finished by hand at the factory. Even with a UV lamp, you can't always tell for sure, though you can identify those items that haven't had any hand-painting or repainting at all.

Vintage items are generally not rare because production runs were very large in the 1960s and '70s, except for a few locos such as 3063, 3052, 3055.1, or 3051.3. Even items from the '50s are relatively common. However, Märklin H0 vintage items which are truly original but come close to mint condition are indeed rare and worth collecting IMO. I hope that answers your question about the value of items with touch-ups. Don't pay too much money for vintage items if you're not sure about their condition or if the seller does not accept returns. There's more fake than genuine stuff out there, and perfect-looking items are suspicious, but most sellers won't tell you about repainting or simply don't check because they know that many buyers don't want to know! You can save a lot of money if you go for items that still look very good but not perfect.

By the way, the Mikado collector's catalogue for Märklin H0 now quotes two different prices for each item, one for mint or near-mint condition and one for slightly used but good condition. It clearly states that both prices only apply to items without any repainting or touch-ups.

Best regards,

Mark

Edited by user 14 April 2018 08:07:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 14 April 2018 00:18:06(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
In my opinion items from the seventies and newer such as you are concerned with are of no interest to "collectors", so if you feel that the value of the item to you is improved with a little touch up then who's to say that you're wrong?

Value is a relative term. What is the value of something that you keep in a box on a shelf in a cupboard? Is it being enjoyed by anyone? If we rate everything by resale value then no-one would bother to buy a new car, would they?

When I look at items on eBay I look at the prices being asked for for similar items, and generally the tatty looking items are much cheaper than those that look good to the eye, whether that involves some touching up or not. In the end it's your money and you decide for yourself what is worth paying for.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#5 Posted : 14 April 2018 05:33:56(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
In my opinion items from the seventies and newer such as you are concerned with are of no interest to "collectors"


That's true. Ironically, items produced after 1972 are much easier to find in mint or near-mint original condition, but most vintage collectors don't really want them, partially because after that year, Märklin locos were no longer sold in nice-looking artwork boxes. Collectors prefer very old items in red boxes, although most of those boxes are fakes. Is a 3050 in a light-blue (or dark-blue) artwork box better than one in a photo or cellophane box from the 1970s? It's the same loco, except that Märklin modified the wheel flanges around 1973 and the pantographs in the late 1970s. What's the value of a box, even if it is original? Why do vintage collectors like fake items so much? I think there's a lot of self-deception involved there.

Buying old vintage locos at low prices and converting them is actually more realistic and does not involve any deception. In that case, touch-ups do not matter because such locos are just supposed to look good and run smoothly on a layout.

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#6 Posted : 16 April 2018 13:11:50(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 523
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
Thanks to Alan, Mark and ray for your thoughtful replies. It's good to know that the majority of my Märklin is not considered really collectable. Laugh

I'm thinking that I'll stick with the idea that if I can't readily detect the touch-up because it was done to a reasonably high standard and the price reflects this, then it OK with me.

Chuck
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Offline Henrik Schütz  
#7 Posted : 23 April 2018 21:30:37(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
A toucheup of a seventies Loco, if well done will not affect the value, the loco will be worth about the same as before the toucheup, but always less than a mint condition locomotive.

For example a pre war SK800 in green will be worth a fraction of an original example if repainted. But of course, if you find a really sad and chipped SK 800 with zincpest . A restoration might add value (but you will propably loose money )

Henrik Schütz

Mark sums it up pretty well!
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