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Offline Hics  
#1 Posted : 01 April 2018 14:55:08(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
So it goes like this.
Loco is working fine except light into one direction. I opened it and I found an unsolder wire. delta light.jpg
delta.jpg
So I solder it to the light and then the problem starts. Light is still not working although the bulb if fine. Also loco is going way slower into one direction than another and the final is that when I change the direction (analogue transformator) the loco jumps for nearly 6-10 cm to change it. With wagons applied it is a disaster. What is going on? I unsolder the wire and everything is fine as it was so far.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 02 April 2018 12:55:22(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi,
Assuming the loco is a Marklin installed decoder I would suggest connecting the orange wire to the other front light pin.
Märklin colours are:
- Blue Motor
- Brown : Chassis / Rails
- Grey: Front light
- Green: Motor
- Orange : common return for functions / lights
- Yellow: Front light
- Red : pick-up slider
- White : Loud speaker 1
- White : Loud speaker 2
- Brown-red : Fonction1
- Brown-green : function 2

On your picture, the loose wire seems to be brown so it must be connected to the chassis / motor boggie
I hope this helps
Cheers

Jean


Offline Hics  
#3 Posted : 02 April 2018 15:17:06(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Hello Jean.
It looks like this.
Grey and yellow goes to lights. Brown is the grounding for them which is attached to the chassis and decoder. First on top (brownish/orangeish)
delta kabelek tyl.jpg
delta kabelek przod.jpg
Red is connected with black coming from the slider. So everything is looking fine to me. IS the decoder broken. I will try to resolder the light yellow/grey and see what happen. But no sooner then tomorrow.
Any other ideas?
Regards

Seb
Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 02 April 2018 17:35:43(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
That is a delta locomotive, so it is possible that the brown wire was still connected to the ground rather than to the decoder.
Digital locomotives have had the ground connected to the decoder since they switched from 6080 to 6090 (AFAIR). This was an issue on 36XX digital loks as it caused the lights to flicker in analog operation.

I don't recall any of my delta locomotives having the ground wires soldered like that.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Hics  
#5 Posted : 02 April 2018 18:10:21(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Thanks Mike.
I have got the same feeling. I will resolder the lights. Ground of each light will go to loco but as close as possible to the light. They shouldnt be solder in one place.
I will find out tomorrow.
Cheers guys.
Seb
Offline Hics  
#6 Posted : 02 April 2018 23:48:51(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
I re soldered them but....it don't work. I soldered them into different place so each light is grounded somewhere else but still as soon as I connect yellow bulb the loco goes crazy. No idea what is wrong except decoder might be broken.

Quote:
I don't recall any of my delta locomotives having the ground wires soldered like that.


Can you take a picture of one of them and post it? Thanks
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 03 April 2018 00:37:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

- Grey: Front light
- Yellow: Front light


I think you mean grey for rear light?

Looking at the first photo in the thread I take it the lamp holder with the yellow wire has nothing on the second connection, and so you believe the stray brown wire should be connected there?

It could be that the bulb is short circuit inside. If you connect the stary wire but remove the bulb does the loco still work OK? (without the head lamp working of course). If so I would suggest fitting a replacement bulb.

Offline Hics  
#8 Posted : 03 April 2018 01:04:56(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Looking at the first photo in the thread I take it the lamp holder with the yellow wire has nothing on the second connection, and so you believe the stray brown wire should be connected there?

It could be that the bulb is short circuit inside. If you connect the stary wire but remove the bulb does the loco still work OK? (without the head lamp working of course). If so I would suggest fitting a replacement bulb.



Yes. I believe brown should be connected there. I connected it and without bulb it is working fine (No light off course). With bulb plugged in loco jumps etc. but still no light. But bulb is fine. I can swap them and they both work fine in another direction. Confused
Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 03 April 2018 02:47:19(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Can you post the model number for this locomotive, so that I can to find more information and photos?

I believe that what is happening is that when the locomotive is running in the direction in which that bulb would normally be activated, that there is a short. Continued use could damage the delta module.
Please ensure that the exposed part of the wires are not touching the motor block.

I could not find the instruction or parts list for the 33743. I did find the 33745:
https://static.maerklin....39be43a2f61434542378.pdf

Here is the spare parts list (generic for BR 216)
https://www.maerklin.de/...lnummer=33743&lang=1
It includes a very basic wiring diagram on the bottom right of the first page.

The support behind the delta decoder is a solder point. I just cannot find a clear image of how the factory soldered the connections here.
Perhaps somebody who has the 33743 can post a few photos of the internals of their model?

I found this photo of a 33743:
https://abload.de/image.php?img=3373_2_klc7jp3.jpg
https://abload.de/image.php?img=3373_3_kldukw1.jpg
Taken from Stummi: https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=140789

Regards

Mike C
Offline RayF  
#10 Posted : 03 April 2018 10:26:34(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
It might seem silly, but have you tried changing the bulb? I had a similar situation recently where the bulb at one end of the loco would not light and the loco seemed reluctant to run. When I swapped the bulbs from one end to the other it transposed the problem. I put in a new bulb and the problem was solved.

Can a light bulb fail in a way which draws more current than usual but fails to illuminate? This certainly seemed to be the case here!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Hics  
#11 Posted : 03 April 2018 11:03:07(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Quote:
Can you post the model number for this locomotive, so that I can to find more information and photos?

Loco.jpg
Quote:
I believe that what is happening is that when the locomotive is running in the direction in which that bulb would normally be activated, that there is a short.

That's what I believe as well.
Quote:
I found this photo of a 33743:

Yep, this is an exact loco as mine.
Quote:
The support behind the delta decoder is a solder point. I just cannot find a clear image of how the factory soldered the connections here.

It must have looked like this
resource.png
Quote:
It might seem silly, but have you tried changing the bulb?

Yes I have, they both work fine in grey direction but don't work in yellow. Actually as I only put a bulb there it causes problems. Without a bulb all is fine.
I will try brand new bulb tonight.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Hics
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 03 April 2018 17:19:14(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I think that the best option would be to update the locomotive using one of the conversion kits with a new decoder. During the conversion process, both the lead and the ground from the lights would be connected to the decoder and no longer to the common ground (chassis). The bulbs are composed of two elements, the actual bulb and the receptacle. I think that there may be a problem with the receptacle which causes a short when the bulb is inserted. You had mentioned that the bulb worked when inserted into the other socket, so this eliminates the bulb as the cause.

I would also like you to check all of the brown wires. In the photo of the delta decoder, there is one brown wire that does not appear to be connected. There should be three brown cables, one to each light and one to the decoder, which should all be connected to ground according to the wiring diagram in the parts sheet.

Regards

Mike C
Online river6109  
#13 Posted : 03 April 2018 17:30:36(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
looking at the last picture it looks like the orange and brown wires are all connected together, as Mike said there should be only 3 brown wires connected at that point but you still got one wire lose. I don't know whether or not you've already ruined the decoder or the light functions. the orange wire should never go to earth or chassis.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Hics  
#14 Posted : 03 April 2018 17:40:42(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
looking at the last picture it looks like the orange and brown wires are all connected together, as Mike said there should be only 3 brown wires connected at that point but you still got one wire lose.
John

It was like this when I bought the loco. It is lose because I disconnected it from the yellow light. Now it is connected but bulb is taken off.
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I don't know whether or not you've already ruined the decoder or the light functions. the orange wire should never go to earth or chassis.
John

So where should it go?

Offline Hics  
#15 Posted : 03 April 2018 17:58:07(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I think that the best option would be to update the locomotive using one of the conversion kits with a new decoder. Regards

Mike C

That's why I received this today straight from Germany, Giessen where my friend was over the weekend BigGrin
decoder.jpg
Unfortunately designated for another loco so this one has to wait.

Btw. Can this be bought in UK? They are on eBay off course but only in Germany with enormous shipping cost.
Regards

Seb
Offline amartinezv  
#16 Posted : 03 April 2018 18:05:40(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 320
Location: Madrid,
Hello all

I follow this thread and I am confused, it seems to me a very strange fault and I see things that do not fit me.

The orange wire is used as a return for the lights to prevent flickering, so each bulb should have a grey or yellow wire and an orange wire.

But also the return of the lights can be done through the brown wires, in this case the orange wire is disconnected.

What you should never do is connect the orange wire to the chassis along with the brown wires, this can damage the decoder.

And I think there's something about this that's the problem.

Then what I would do is:

Disconnect the orange wire at its junction with the brown ones and insulate it.

Connect the brown to the light bulb.

Test the operation, if it goes well and if there is flickering.

Another option would be:

Disconnect the orange at its junction with the brown ones and connect it to the light bulb connection.

Test operation

Best regards and good luck
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
Offline Hics  
#17 Posted : 03 April 2018 18:24:08(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Originally Posted by: amartinezv Go to Quoted Post
Hello all
The orange wire is used as a return for the lights to prevent flickering, so each bulb should have a grey or yellow wire and an orange wire.
....
Best regards and good luck

What orange? There is no orange. I think you are missing smth. This is Delta 6603. This one DONT have orange for lights. It has:
brown for ground
red for a shoe.
yellow, grey for lights
green, blue, black for engine and that's it.
No orange.
6603 connection.jpg


6603_scan.jpg
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 03 April 2018 19:21:25(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The confusion about the orange likely comes from the fact that there are two shades of 'brown' wire installed and in one photo one can certainly see it as looking 'orange' due to the photo's colors.

UserPostedImage

The possibility of a short being made in the bulb socket is one mode of failure.
If the output stage from the decoder for the bulb (yellow wire) is already damaged then that may also be an issue as connecting it could draw enough power to cause decoder operation problems due to voltage drops.

If you swap the light wires (gray and yellow) between the loco socket ends and try it again, and now it fails when there is a bulb in the other end, then you can eliminate the socket of the bulb, and know its probably the decoder, right?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Hics  
#19 Posted : 03 April 2018 19:32:53(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Right BigGrin
This is exactly what I planned for tonight.
Offline Hics  
#20 Posted : 03 April 2018 20:26:40(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
I have just received a picture of exactly the same loco as mine. The same connections.
IMG-20180302-WA0017.jpg
And I start wonder about bulbs sockets. They are made from plastic. Can they make a short circuit to the chassis?
Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 04 April 2018 19:07:35(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Well inside the part where the bulb gets inserted, there have to be metal contact surfaces to electrically connect to the bulb - they could be damaged in some way or debris be in there so when one inserts a bulb it causes a short between the lines into the bulb socket. A multimeter with an ohm measurement on the lamp terminal ends (without the decoder attached to one of the ends) would tell as well. We could probably come up with possible reasons for why a certain part might have failed a certain way all day long; whats called for is a debugging session to systematically check the relevant areas to determine if they are working or faulty.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Hics  
#22 Posted : 16 April 2018 11:42:40(UTC)
Hics

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 162
Location: England, St Ives
Hello again.
I got to the end of a story. Tried re soldering the sockets etc. Nothing works.
After asking on another forum I got answer that one of the transistors responsible for lights is probably broken and I will stay with that.
In a meantime I decided to install 60760 set in it so lights will work again soon.
Thanks for help anyway.
delta 2.jpg
Delta.jpg
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