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Offline aos  
#1 Posted : 26 December 2017 18:00:13(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 508
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Hi,

I had a great Christmas day, playing with my new Marklin presents. Today, I was adding some additional feeder wiring to the track for the CS2 transformer.

Sadly, I connected the wires to the wrong transformer, the one which I use for the lighting and signals. I had a loco on the track which started
immediately, even before the CS2 had powered up. This meant that both transformers were providing power to the CS2. Smoke started to emanate from the CS2 and I knew that it was kaput from the acrid smell.

At the moment. I do not know what has happened to all my decoders in the track points or my old signals (7036, 7038, 7039, 7040 and 7041). I am hoping that they are all ok. I only have a MS1, so I cannot test the points yet.

My wife has taken a very sympathetic viewpoint and has said that I should order a new CS3. The question is: 60216 CS3 PLUS or 60226 CS3.

From my own perspective and studies, I suspect that I do not need the CS3 Plus.

Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Alan
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by aos
Offline Roland  
#2 Posted : 26 December 2017 19:28:34(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Hi aos,

Sorry to hear about your CS2 :(

It all depends on what your needs are. I came across the following comparison while making the same decision last year. Have a look http://railway.zone/post...d-central-station-3-plus

Cheers
Roland
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 26 December 2017 19:47:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Bit of a sorry way to end train operations on the Christmas holidays ... sorry to hear this has happened.

If you decide to throw out the cs2 instead of fixing it, throw it my way, for a suitable consideration.

Just which version of the cs2 is it (60213, 60214, 60215)? I don't know if there are any differences in the plastic case between the models, but if sent o Marklin they would probably just replace the circuit board with the 60215 version, whichever version of the cs2 it is.

We can talk about this at Ian's soiree in February.
Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 26 December 2017 22:01:59(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,686
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: aos Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I had a great Christmas day, playing with my new Marklin presents. Today, I was adding some additional feeder wiring to the track for the CS2 transformer.

Sadly, I connected the wires to the wrong transformer, the one which I use for the lighting and signals. I had a loco on the track which started
immediately, even before the CS2 had powered up. This meant that both transformers were providing power to the CS2. Smoke started to emanate from the CS2 and I knew that it was kaput from the acrid smell.

At the moment. I do not know what has happened to all my decoders in the track points or my old signals (7036, 7038, 7039, 7040 and 7041). I am hoping that they are all ok. I only have a MS1, so I cannot test the points yet.

My wife has taken a very sympathetic viewpoint and has said that I should order a new CS3. The question is: 60216 CS3 PLUS or 60226 CS3.

From my own perspective and studies, I suspect that I do not need the CS3 Plus.

Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Alan


Have you checked your household contents insurance policy? - often things like this are covered under what they loosely call 'fusion' but can include lightning strikes, power surges, brown-outs etc and also non-deliberate user-error.

A wiring short-circuit is a genuine accident so you should be honest about that but depending on your excess and any no-claims bonus you might get it could still be worthwhile considering?

And... don't over-estimate what it may cost to repair your CS2.

I did a similar thing with my Intellibox a few years ago which I relayed here (https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t20486-Intellibox----Attention-Extern--Voltage---BUGGER)

It was a relatively easy and economic repair, just a pita.

What does get me however, is the lack of protection that manufacturers continue to build into their devices against exactly this sort of thing. I would suggest ALL external connectors should have some form of fast-acting protection (within reason), even if that 'protection' is in fact the output driver (or whatever component is most at risk) being physically placed in such a way within the unit that replacement is easy and affordable.

Anytime I replace the same electronic component more than once, the next time (wherever possible) a socket goes in first and the component into the socket. And if it's a really awkward component to get to I might even do the socket first time.

Hope this helps

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline sjbartels  
#5 Posted : 27 December 2017 01:44:20(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: aos Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I had a great Christmas day, playing with my new Marklin presents. Today, I was adding some additional feeder wiring to the track for the CS2 transformer.

Sadly, I connected the wires to the wrong transformer, the one which I use for the lighting and signals. I had a loco on the track which started
immediately, even before the CS2 had powered up. This meant that both transformers were providing power to the CS2. Smoke started to emanate from the CS2 and I knew that it was kaput from the acrid smell.

At the moment. I do not know what has happened to all my decoders in the track points or my old signals (7036, 7038, 7039, 7040 and 7041). I am hoping that they are all ok. I only have a MS1, so I cannot test the points yet.

My wife has taken a very sympathetic viewpoint and has said that I should order a new CS3. The question is: 60216 CS3 PLUS or 60226 CS3.

From my own perspective and studies, I suspect that I do not need the CS3 Plus.

Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Alan


Have you checked your household contents insurance policy?


I have a friend in Denmark who lost his relatively new CS3 via a lightening strike, and insurance covered the whole thing and replaced it, so as Cookee says, I would defiantly look into it if you can demonstrate it was an accident like you describe here, you never know. Worst they can say is no
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline aos  
#6 Posted : 02 January 2018 14:24:01(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 508
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Hi all, many thanks for the advice. I have decided that I will go for the CS3 (60226). Since postage is a bit on the steep side, I have decided to order some extra items as well, while I am placing my order.

I wonder if anyone can shed some light on the difference in these two locos which joesmodellbahn supply apart from the obvious €26:

Märklin 36321 - BR81 €89.90
Märklin 29321 - BR81 (starter set) €63.90

Thanks in advance, Alan
Offline David Dewar  
#7 Posted : 02 January 2018 15:37:17(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,024
Location: Scotland
Alan. Just a reply re the postage. Lippe will cost you 3 euros and if coming by DPD you will know within an hour when to receive the package. Also 3% will be added to your account for future purchases. No need tp at high postal costs to Scotland.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 02 January 2018 15:43:01(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,108
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: aos Go to Quoted Post
Today, I was adding some additional feeder wiring to the track for the CS2 transformer.


I have to ask........why were you adding additional feeder wiring to the track for the CS2 transformer?

You should NEVER have the transformer / power supply that is supplying power to the CS2 connected to anything other than the CS2. This applies to the CS1 / CS2 / CS3 / CS3+ / Ecos (all types) and probably every other modern MRR controller.

Track feeder wiring should only ever be connected to the red / brown outputs from the CS2 and the red / brown outputs from any boosters connected to the CS2. Likewise for the other controllers mentioned.

It is a moot point that you connected a transformer supplying power to accessories, the same result would have happened if you had connected the transformer supplying power to the CS2.

As for the other questions you ask, the CS3 should be OK for your needs.

I suspect that your point decoders and signals will still be Ok, but the only way to be sure is to test them with another CS2 or MS2.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 02 January 2018 15:55:49(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,108
Location: New Zealand
As for the question re the BR81 models, you can compare the differences from the Marklin Product Database (now that it is back online)

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/29321/

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/36321/

There doesn't seem to be much difference in either model compared to the other.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 02 January 2018 16:28:44(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
As for the question re the BR81 models, you can compare the differences from the Marklin Product Database (now that it is back online)

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/29321/

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/36321/

There doesn't seem to be much difference in either model compared to the other.


Except that one is a boxed model, and the other is from a break down of a start set, and as such will not come in a 'proper' box. Because it is from a start set the cost is lower as the components of a start set generally cannot be purchased as single items for the same total cost (exceptions seem to be the track expansion sets).

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Offline Ian555  
#11 Posted : 02 January 2018 19:49:02(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,051
Location: Scotland
Hi Alan,

Not so good news that, but a nice new CS3 will be fun.

See you at the Club meeting.

Ian.
Offline aos  
#12 Posted : 02 January 2018 19:54:49(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 508
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Hi David (Scotland), Thanks for the tip about Lippe. How do they manage to ship to Scotland for only €3???? Sadly. they did not seem to have in stock a couple of the items at the moment. Will we be meeting you at Ian's get together next month?

Hi David (New Zealand), I think that I did not explain myself clearly enough. I was adding extra feeder cable about every 2-3 metres from the CS2 connection point. I am not very good with terminology. Basically, I have the red and brown wires from the back of the CS2 which plug into the track. From there, I tap off extra wires to other parts of the track to prevent voltage drop. I think that is the way it goes. Anyway, I have a separate transformer for my ancillary devices. I accidentally connected this up.

Hi Alan, so are these locos one and the same, i.e. no technical difference? If so, €26 seems rather expensive for a box, which only sits in my cupboard, gathering dust!!

Many thanks for the replies, Alan
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Offline David Dewar  
#13 Posted : 02 January 2018 21:05:45(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,024
Location: Scotland
Alan. Lippe will get out of stock items quickly if available at manufacturer. Their postal costs are cheap if you order over 100 euros and are in Europe (at present we still are lol)
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 02 March 2018 20:59:31(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: aos Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I had a great Christmas day, playing with my new Marklin presents. Today, I was adding some additional feeder wiring to the track for the CS2 transformer.

Sadly, I connected the wires to the wrong transformer, the one which I use for the lighting and signals. I had a loco on the track which started
immediately, even before the CS2 had powered up. This meant that both transformers were providing power to the CS2. Smoke started to emanate from the CS2 and I knew that it was kaput from the acrid smell.
Alan


I took the afternoon today as a 'snowday' getting home before some more snow came down. I took the opportunity to open the cs2 and have a look at what has fried. I'll take some pictures tomorrow so you can see the chip that let the magic smoke out.

Offline aos  
#15 Posted : 04 March 2018 19:15:20(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 508
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Hi Alan, Does the damage seem to be limited to just one chip, or is that too optimistic to think. If it is, is that particular chip a generic chip or a specialist chip which has been "programmed"? I look forward to seeing the photos. Alan
Offline kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 04 March 2018 19:39:15(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: aos Go to Quoted Post
Hi Alan, Does the damage seem to be limited to just one chip, or is that too optimistic to think. If it is, is that particular chip a generic chip or a specialist chip which has been "programmed"? I look forward to seeing the photos. Alan


The chip that has obvious damage is the chip that drives the track. There is no other obvious damage. I had hoped to take some photos of it over the weekend, but haven't managed it. I should be able to do something this week though.

But if I send off to Marklin I believe they would replace the PCB rather than repair it, as the effort involved in determining that there are no other damaged items is not cost effective. The possibility of the mfx receiver section also being damaged is too high as it is also directly connected to the output terminals.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 05 March 2018 18:45:51(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
OK, time to post some pictures.

First picture is the PCB out of the CS2.

20180305_170847.jpg

Slap in the middle of the PCB is the main processor that runs the Linux code. It is of the Intel PXA250 family, and appears to be the highest speed of three possible speed options.
Immediately to the left of that is the boot rom - easily identified as such because it says so on the top of it. Immediately above that is the NAND Flash chip that acts as the internal 'disk drive' for the Linux system, and to the right of that above the processor chip is an FPGA that I suspect does the NAND Flash interface, but I may be wrong on this, I haven't checked through the processor data sheet to see if it natively supports NAND Flash chips.

To the left of the boot ROM is two RAM chips, and above them are pads to fit another two chips. Below these are the two white connectors accessible underneath the CS2 to connect 6015 series boosters and the s88 devices.

To the 'south east' of the processor chip is the cable that goes through to the display. This carries the data that is displayed, there is another cable for the touch screen and another for the screen backlight. Below the white cable there is an 8051 family microprocessor. I believe this is the TPU chip, as a similar chip is used in the add-on board for the CS1 that allows connection of 6015/7 series boosters.

Above and to the right of this chip is the power supply section. There are various regulators to get the voltages required by the processors and various other chips. The two very large capacitors on the very right hand end of the board are the main filter capacitors, and the rectifiers that allow use of an AC transformer are at the very top right. Immediately to the left of the rectifiers is the power connector, with the track and programming track connectors the next two to the left. Below this are various filter components which I presume were designed to originally meet FCC regulations but apparently are not enough to do so seeing later cs2s have an external filter supplied.

Below these components is a large capacitor on its side and then the chip that is the cause of alan's problem. A burn mark is visible in this photo, but I have taken a close up to show some detail.

20180305_170920.jpg

The result of incorrectly connecting a power supply to the output terminals can be clearly seen. The solder has disappeared off the blackened pads and the split in the casing where the 'magic smoke' escaped can be clearly seen. The transformer on the far side of the resistors beside the large capacitor is used to pick off the mfx signal from whatever is replying out on the track to an mfx information request. The mfx decoder chip is the larger of the two chips on the right hand edge of the picture.

The chip that has blown up is a standard ST Microelectronics L6206 power driver, designed for driving motors and similar loads, which makes it an ideal device for this use. However the fun and gmes is going to be getting the chip off, but I think it s worth a try at replacing it as a replacement chip is less than £6 form Farnell or RS. We have the necessary tools to get the chip off despite it having a heat sink pad underneath that is soldered to the board, and then fitting a replacement chip after cleaning up the burnt pads should be a breeze after that.

I think it is worth a try to repair it at that cost as the chips are readily available. If that doesn't work I haven't laid out too much money if it then needs to go back to Marklin.

The replacement chip should be here later this week, so I will continue the saga then.

thanks 9 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 05 March 2018 19:50:55(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,222
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Ouch. Looks like some of the smaller nearby SMD chips (transistors, regulators) also took some damage.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 05 March 2018 23:34:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Ouch. Looks like some of the smaller nearby SMD chips (transistors, regulators) also took some damage.


I don't think they have, but with any luck I'll get that chip out on Tuesday and fire it up and see if anything else gives the impression of giving problems.

Offline Chook  
#20 Posted : 06 March 2018 04:37:53(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
Life for older techs was so much easier before SMD.
Re soldering the L6206 without heat stress on the pcb will be the trick for longevity of the repair and indeed you may have to put the whole card in an oven to pre heat it and destress.



Regards..............Chook.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 06 March 2018 16:44:17(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Chook Go to Quoted Post
Life for older techs was so much easier before SMD.
Re soldering the L6206 without heat stress on the pcb will be the trick for longevity of the repair and indeed you may have to put the whole card in an oven to pre heat it and destress.



Regards..............Chook.


That is how we do it, we use an infrared spot on the IC to melt the solder and background heater underneath to heat the PCB. It is the only way to melt the solder when there are thermal pads under the chip.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 08 March 2018 18:42:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
OK, managed to get the chip off today, without apparently damaging the PCB by my efforts.

Here you can see the heater underneath the PCB that gives the whole PCB background heat. Without this it is difficult to get the solder to melt as earth and power planes in the middle layers of the PCB will heatsink the heat away faster than it can be put in. You can also see the infraheat heater spot on the chip.

20180308_143849.jpg

Here is the heat profile in the controlling software. The red line is the chip temperature and the blue line is the PCB temperature.
20180308_143910.jpg

And now we have the chip removed. I haven't cleaned up the PCB yet, but it looks like one of the pads has burnt away when the chip released the smoke.
20180308_150150.jpg

With any luck I'll find time tomorrow to progress this some more, but I have other jobs I have to get done first.
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Offline Minok  
#23 Posted : 08 March 2018 19:17:35(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,222
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Nice to see you have the kit to do this job properly. With THT I'd try it myself to mend but with SMD I'd have to just write it off. Enjoy seeing the process of SMD repair.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline kiwiAlan  
#24 Posted : 16 March 2018 18:52:28(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,430
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Finally got a chance to do something about fitting a new chip today.

First a good look at the damaged pads ...

AE412PJB332MSZ VS K -001.jpg

A couple of pads have lifted when the chip let the magic smoke out, but they are not connected to anything, so no consequence there.

The components to the right are off colour because the lighting on that microscope is not great. They are actually fine.

I also managed to to lift the second from the top when I was removing the solder left behind after removing the chip, but that one is also unconnected, so no problem again.

Fitted the new chip and tidied up some stray bridging of the leads, and fitted the PCB back into the case.

Connected up a power supply and low and behold, the unit powers up fine - I hadn't tried to power it up while the faulty chip was in so don't know if it would power up under those conditions.

Connected up some track and put a couple of mfx locos on there, and low and behold, it recognises them and controls them. So electronically it looks like a good repair. I'll need to do a bit more testing to be sure that things are completely happy, but the signs are great.ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp Woot Woot Woot Woot

There is only one small glitch, the stop bar is not working properly because the plastic piece that sits on the PCB to push the switch when you push the stop bar has got slightly deformed from the eater when taking the chip off the board. I'll need to see if I can get that back to sensible shape or work out some other work around to make the stop bar work properly. Moral - make sure you remove all the ancillary bits before applying lots of heat ... Blink Blink Blink
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Offline aos  
#25 Posted : 17 March 2018 12:23:50(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 508
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Hi Alan, that really is good news. I am glad that you have been able to fix it. Alan
Offline Ian555  
#26 Posted : 17 March 2018 15:43:20(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,051
Location: Scotland
Hi Alan,

Is it for sale...I'm looking for a cheap CS2...Smile

Ian.

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