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Offline kiwiAlan  
#1 Posted : 05 December 2017 22:14:37(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
A report on the BBC says a passenger train has run into a goods train. Some injuries, but none life threatening.

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Offline Minok  
#2 Posted : 05 December 2017 22:19:49(UTC)
Minok

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Passenger train ran into back of stopped freight train. 20~50 injured.

All photos (c) DPA

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Offline Minok  
#3 Posted : 06 December 2017 00:35:46(UTC)
Minok

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Updated info: the train (at night) came upon a few freight cars just standing on the mainline track. Its not clear why there were there (but not part of a full train that was parked there it seems).
The engineer was able to see the collision coming, activated the emergency brake and was able to get out of the cab to a bit of safety back amoung the passengers, thus keeping the damage to only some passengers being severlyh injured with broken bones, to slightly injured with bruises and cuts to some with no injuries. No deaths reported.

The route, between Köln and Krefeld is also used by freight ... and somehow one or more freight hopper cars ended up being left on or let onto the mainline at night.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 06 December 2017 10:20:30(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Thanks for the update. I can see that there is one coach that is going to be scrapped, it won't be worth trying to repair one with a banana bend like that in it.

Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 06 December 2017 22:54:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Latest information: Reports say the dispatcher instructed the NX train driver to ignore a red signal even though the track was still occupied by the cargo train.
Post also says the cargo train was already moving, which reduced the impact of the collision.
Unclear whether the dispatcher instructed the train driver to pull the emergency brake before the collision.
It seems the dispatcher had made a mistake with the train numbers.

So most likely the human factor once again was the weak point of the train security system.

German post:
http://www.focus.de/pano...-duerfen_id_7944824.html
Regards
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Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 06 December 2017 23:14:52(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Yeah, so it was a full freight train, that had stopped at a stop signal on the track awaiting the go signal, which it had gotten and was beginning to move at the point of impact. The NX passenger train should not have been cleared to enter the occupied track block. The data recorders from both trains have been secured and will be evaluated... But several media are indeed indicating a dispatcher may have given verbal approval for the engineer to drive past the red signal on the track into the still occupied track block. A screwup in the handling of train numbers or other human error combined with the existing ability for dispatchers to override the signals on track segments as a regular course of action seems likely to be a key contributor.

The accident had knocked down some cantenary wire, which fell on some car(s) and electrified them, delaying the rescue - which for all of us, is a reminder to think about when in an accident.
The T-Online article indicates the NX train driver did pull the emergency brake once he saw the back end of the freight train, and that prevented a much worse outcome.

So we get to see rescue / support equipment deployed again, what I think is a BR 711.

Capture.PNG
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Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 06 December 2017 23:18:14(UTC)
Minok

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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 06 December 2017 23:29:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
The freight train was empty, heading to Rotterdam. Such a light-weight railcar colliding with full ore cars (12-axle type - permanently coupled pairs of six-axle ore hopper cars) might have suffered more from the collision.

The railcar has a banana shape. But it appears to have pushed three hopper cars off the rails. With full ore cars the railcar may have doubled up.

I think trains passing red signals by order are limited to 40 km/h.

More details will get known over time.
Regards
Tom
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Offline baggio  
#9 Posted : 07 December 2017 05:51:07(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
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Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
A screwup in the handling of train numbers or other human error combined with the existing ability for dispatchers to override the signals on track segments as a regular course of action seems likely to be a key contributor.


Why in the world would the dispatcher do that? I mean, if there is a red light, why override it "as a regular course?"
Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2017 06:21:38(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
A screwup in the handling of train numbers or other human error combined with the existing ability for dispatchers to override the signals on track segments as a regular course of action seems likely to be a key contributor.


Why in the world would the dispatcher do that? I mean, if there is a red light, why override it "as a regular course?"


God question. I've gotten the feel (maybe wrongly) that this happens way more often than I would have thought (I'd have thought near Zero unless you know the signal is broken and have positive knowledge of the block contents )
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#11 Posted : 07 December 2017 08:13:36(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Why in the world would the dispatcher do that? I mean, if there is a red light, why override it "as a regular course?"

The last time it happened he was playing a game on his smartphone. That caused some deaths when two regional trains collided. Not saying that it was the cause this time, but some body should consider if allowing a train to pass a red signal should really be this easy...

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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 07 December 2017 08:25:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Why in the world would the dispatcher do that? I mean, if there is a red light, why override it "as a regular course?"
I once sat in a street car that was stopped at a red signal. Train driver spake with the dispatcher, wrote down his written instruction to bypass the red signal - and bypassed the red signal.
This shouldn't be done carelessly. This should only occur after double or triple checks.

Signals are built to fail safe - they should show red when something goes wrong. Sometimes the signal shows red, even if the track is free.

Sometimes the normal pattern no longer works. At another time I was in a DB train that had to change direction halfway between to stations because another train blocked the regular track. So the train went back "at sight" to the previous station. Then, under computer control again, it changed to the other track and continued the journey.


Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
The last time it happened he was playing a game on his smartphone.
In the Bad Aibling accident, he overruled the computer and turned the signal to green - and the train driver had no reason to be alarmed.
In this case it seems the train driver bypassed the red signal after receiving instructions from the controller. So at least the train driver knew it was an unusual situation.
Different cases, different procedures.
Regards
Tom
---
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Offline jvuye  
#13 Posted : 07 December 2017 08:26:39(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Why in the world would the dispatcher do that? I mean, if there is a red light, why override it "as a regular course?"

The last time it happened he was playing a game on his smartphone. That caused some deaths when two regional trains collided. Not saying that it was the cause this time, but some body should consider if allowing a train to pass a red signal should really be this easy...



Yes..that's right.
Maybe the dispatcher's training should include a time of working with model trains to figure what happens in reality when little lights change on a screen....

The difference between video games and model trains /RC airplanes/boats/Meccano,etc... is the sanction of reality.
No "reset" button when you crash or break something.

But that's just the old f..t in me speaking.

Back to my (model) trains, till later!


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 08 December 2017 01:25:57(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So our buddy BR 732 is back in action again. (Photos DPA)


Capture2.PNG




And a 711 does the job of repairing the cantenary

Capture.PNG
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Offline xxup  
#15 Posted : 08 December 2017 03:30:05(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,472
Location: Australia
Oh for a nice Br711 catenary repair train.. Smile
Adrian
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Offline Minok  
#16 Posted : 08 December 2017 22:36:33(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
We know the freight train had already started to move, and the passenger train was doing full emergency braking, all of which contributed to the reduced amount of damage, but its still interesting to see, given how banana-shaped the first drive car is, how undamaged the interior of the engineers cabin appears to be.

(images from bild.de )
Capture2.PNG
Capture.PNG
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Offline ShannonN  
#17 Posted : 08 December 2017 23:25:58(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, so it was a full freight train, that had stopped at a stop signal on the track awaiting the go signal, which it had gotten and was beginning to move at the point of impact. The NX passenger train should not have been cleared to enter the occupied track block.


But why would the dispatcher give the go ahead for the train to pass red at danger at all? To be clear, if train driver does not ask to pass red signal at danger, then he sits there till signal goes green. No accident can happen.

I have not heard of a driver stopping at a red signal and suddenly without asking, the dispatcher radios ; "hey its clear ahead drive through"? (assuming, there is no signal malfunction known at the time) what I'm implying is the train driver must have asked to pass at danger and got permission or did the dispatcher just order him through on his Dispatchers authority before he stopped at all thereby keeping a high speed throughout the passing of the signal?

If the driver asked to clear , he should not have been going fast as has been said there are limits imposed after passing a red at danger? If he really never stopped but slowed to 40 kph then accelerated I can understand why he had to use emergency braking but at 40 kph safe limit it wouldn't be necessary?


I'm confused, then I am 61 :)
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 09 December 2017 00:25:02(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
We will have to wait till the investigation unfolds. The data and voice recorders have been recovered, and the people are being interviewed. The only statements on the possible cause so far is that neither of the two trains' engineers are responsible.
For the freight train, there are no tail lights, just some reflective boards, so spotting a matte brown/rust colored freight car at night from a cab by headlights is like seeing a bicycle on a stretch of highway, assuming the boards are not dirty... you likely only spot it at last second...
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 09 December 2017 08:12:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ShannonN Go to Quoted Post
But why would the dispatcher give the go ahead for the train to pass red at danger at all?
Commuters on that relation complain about frequent signal problems.
When the dispatcher cannot set the signal to green due to technical problems but they know the track is clear, they can override this by passing instructions to the train driver.

Regards
Tom
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Offline Minok  
#20 Posted : 16 January 2018 00:53:32(UTC)
Minok

United States   
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Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I was curious if there was any new info on this and did some follow-up research
1) The train operator was given the approval by the dispatcher covering the line to proceed past the red/stop signal that was showing for the train.
2) The freight train that was on that section and had been stopped had just been given approval to proceed into the following station, Meerbusch-Osterath, and had begun moving.

So early indications are not yet conclusive - did the dispatcher mistakenly give the approval to proceed despite the line not being clear in the next block (and why the heck don't the signals get used and are operational). And did the train operator proceed at too high of a speed? (though I'd expect that dispatchers don't rely on assumed times to depart for the freight and arrive for the commuter rail to prevent a collision within the block... that seems destined for trouble)

Adding some images from the German Wikipedia article on the crash; showing crane in operating clearing derailed cars.
No conclusion to the investigation yet.

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https://de.wikipedia.org...l_von_Meerbusch-Osterath

Edited by user 03 April 2018 18:06:35(UTC)  | Reason: Add link to German Wikipedia article

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