Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline 1borna  
#1 Posted : 01 November 2017 21:13:45(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Hrvatska
It is well known that the models with these engines often have problems with the control electronics, so Marklin is
stopped working
UserPostedImage
The drive stand differs from the standard so it is not possible to put a plain engine in it
UserPostedImage
One such locomotive in the Backo Mini Express fleet damaged and Marklin's response was that
There are no replacement parts for it because it is no longer produced!
UserPostedImage
After numerous tests, they found a suitable stand with a standard engine
UserPostedImage
The plastic around the drive wheels has been attached to it
UserPostedImage
The decoder is also standard,sound
Comparison with the old
UserPostedImage
There are a couple of other models with problematic electronics for stepper motors in the layout fleet
and the crew is looking for other drive systems with a regular drive to replace them
If you have the same problems, feel free to contact http://www.backo.hr/en/

Edited by moderator 07 November 2017 10:39:16(UTC)  | Reason: Updated the title as requested

thanks 5 users liked this useful post by 1borna
Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 02 November 2017 06:29:38(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,125
Location: Montreal, QC
Not quite sure what you are telling us. (By stepper motor, I think that you mean the C-Sinus motor). I think that there is an issue with your 39802 and you had problems obtaining parts/replacement for the C-Sinus motor.
Maerklin no longer has inventory of spare parts for some of the C-Sinus models, but in most cases, those models were variants of existing models that had the HLA or other motors.
What is required to refit a C-sinus model with a regular motor is to replace both the motor or motor bogie as the case may be as well as the decoder and circuit board, as the connection between the C-Sinus motor and circuit board cannot be used with a regular motor.

Does this backo.hr site offer replacement motors or is it simply a Maerklin repair agent?

If anybody has a C-Sinus model and cannot find spare parts, search for that locomotive type on Maerklin's site and check to see if they have a more recent or older model that you could get parts for to convert your lok to a regular model.
39361 Ae 6/6 and 37361
3960X Re 460 and 37460
This also applies for DB and other loks too.

In a worst case scenario, you can search for a Lok that somebody else cannot repair and wants to sell and hopefully the parts you need are not the ones that are damaged/broken and you can keep the rest as a spare parts inventory.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline Kameni  
#3 Posted : 02 November 2017 08:13:29(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Not quite sure what you are telling us. (By stepper motor, I think that you mean the C-Sinus motor). I think that there is an issue with your 39802 and you had problems obtaining parts/replacement for the C-Sinus motor.
Maerklin no longer has inventory of spare parts for some of the C-Sinus models, but in most cases, those models were variants of existing models that had the HLA or other motors.
What is required to refit a C-sinus model with a regular motor is to replace both the motor or motor bogie as the case may be as well as the decoder and circuit board, as the connection between the C-Sinus motor and circuit board cannot be used with a regular motor.

Does this backo.hr site offer replacement motors or is it simply a Maerklin repair agent?

If anybody has a C-Sinus model and cannot find spare parts, search for that locomotive type on Maerklin's site and check to see if they have a more recent or older model that you could get parts for to convert your lok to a regular model.
39361 Ae 6/6 and 37361
3960X Re 460 and 37460
This also applies for DB and other loks too.

In a worst case scenario, you can search for a Lok that somebody else cannot repair and wants to sell and hopefully the parts you need are not the ones that are damaged/broken and you can keep the rest as a spare parts inventory.

Regards

Mike C

Hi Mike,
In 1Borna post, focus is how to repair valuable locomotive whit damaged Soft-Drive-Sinus motor with support driver which are not longer available. Company which produces SDS motors for Maerklin still offers them on request with customised flat cable but issue is quantity and price. Problem with particular and similar models with soft drive sinus motors is temperature issue with overheating which causes parts to melt down (bottom of spiral rotor with housing near support bearing) and destroy motor and its controller in most cases. If you drive locomotive a lot, temperature generated on the motor and on the controller plate is quite high. Whole concept in some locomotives with less internal space has some benefits but problems though. For all above mentioned issues, related problems and (financial)reasons, Mearklin stopped to use them in their locomotives and parts list as well and admit that use of those motors is an issue rather revolution like it was promoted when they introduce them. Cursing

At the end of the day, you have locomotive with no available parts and with no support form locomotive maker as they don't have this type of motors and controllers in their program any more. Also used parts are just temporary solution.Crying

For that reason www.backo.hr offers solution with new replacement motor and boogie and support decoder board with speaker.
Mfx Sound decoder could be purchased as well.
BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin

Cheers,

Davor
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 02 November 2017 08:18:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

If the C Sine motor is still running, then you can try motor driver boards from Rail4You or that project Moritz wrote about. Backo offers a third option, but without retaining the excellent C Sine motor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Kameni  
#5 Posted : 02 November 2017 09:43:50(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

If the C Sine motor is still running, then you can try motor driver boards from Rail4You or that project Moritz wrote about. Backo offers a third option, but without retaining the excellent C Sine motor.


Correct, backo.hr offers solution for damaged SDS motor or C-Sine motor or/and control board.
I'm not sure if C sine of that type is excellent for this application especially when EMF needs to be compensate.
Overheating is huge, definitely over allowable upper limit.

I know for many cases with motor issue. Recently on one 141 DB locomotive with same type of motor, whole plastic support has been melded down to the motor itself.. complete disaster.

I will post picture of that locomotive soon BigGrin

Regards,

Davor
Offline mario54i  
#6 Posted : 02 November 2017 10:06:12(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Torino,
What about replacing the SDS motor with a Maxon DC motor like here ?
https://www.mrufer.ch/mo...ahn/umbau/trix_re44.html
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mario54i
Offline Kameni  
#7 Posted : 02 November 2017 10:22:39(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
What about replacing the SDS motor with a Maxon DC motor like here ?
https://www.mrufer.ch/mo...ahn/umbau/trix_re44.html

Great solution with Maxon motor :-)


Offline Kameni  
#8 Posted : 02 November 2017 22:11:45(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
As per discussion
Here are pictures of the 39411 Marklin e lok 141 011-2 (mfx with sound)

From below picture it is clear that support plastic has been completely melted and Soft Drive Sinus motor is destroyed.
141-061-2 - 01.jpg

Details of the support plastic frame (Halterplate 120 794).
141-061-2 - 02.jpg

Form part list it is clear that motor 132271 is not available together with 136656 PCB board!?! becasue that type of motors are not in production any more.

On the another locomotive 39412 Marklin 141 438-2 (orange/kieselgrau) with Soft Drive Sinus motor is same problem.

141 438-2 - 01.jpg

www.backo.hr also offers solution to this problem with complete repair of 141 class locomotives with damaged Soft Drive Sinus motors and supported PCB (platine).

I tried to get some information form Marklin but without success.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 02 November 2017 22:29:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
Overheating is huge, definitely over allowable upper limit.

I know for many cases with motor issue.
A friend disassembled a C Sine motor that had pressed the loco against a bumper for possibly hours until it finally overheated and self-destructed by deforming the plastic parts.

In my experience this is a rare problem.

Reports about failing driver electronics are more common.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Kameni  
#10 Posted : 02 November 2017 23:55:45(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
Overheating is huge, definitely over allowable upper limit.

I know for many cases with motor issue.
A friend disassembled a C Sine motor that had pressed the loco against a bumper for possibly hours until it finally overheated and self-destructed by deforming the plastic parts.

In my experience this is a rare problem.

Reports about failing driver electronics are more common.


In five locomotives with this type of motor i found same motor issue. I dismantle all of them for inspection and diagnostics.
All locomotives run everyday aprox. 1-3 hrs. After 80hrs service schedule I check all of them and issue was more or less same.
Magnet become so brittle that is possible to brake it with fingers.
As conclusion I found that they are not designed for constant drive rather for short rides like from point to point with many stops.
Surface temperature is so high.... it could burn skin and melt plastic of course.
Even Maerklin stop to mess with this type of motors and controllers and completely removed them from their program, unfortunately without customer support, explanation and possible solutions.

My opinion is that are maybe great motors but not for model-railways.
New decoders have EMF and other advanced solutions to control motors.

Permanent solution is to replace motor and controllers with standard motor and common electronics. BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin







Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 03 November 2017 08:53:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
New decoders have EMF and other advanced solutions to control motors.
Back EMF is so old-school, those C Sine motors have Hall sensors for advanced motor control.
They ain't "stepper motors", they are brushless DC motors. I hear that type of motor is frequently used in RC models. They are not made for the variable voltages used with analogue operation and that surely was an issue, especially with DC operation.

The maintenance interval for those locos is typically 20 hours, not 80 hours.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Kameni  
#12 Posted : 03 November 2017 21:22:41(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
New decoders have EMF and other advanced solutions to control motors.
Back EMF is so old-school, those C Sine motors have Hall sensors for advanced motor control.
They ain't "stepper motors", they are brushless DC motors. I hear that type of motor is frequently used in RC models. They are not made for the variable voltages used with analogue operation and that surely was an issue, especially with DC operation.

The maintenance interval for those locos is typically 20 hours, not 80 hours.


We could not simply said which is better BEMF or HAL to sense mechanical angle of the motor for our hobby.
Even motors in Marklin locomotives works great, HAL main disadvantage is that it has poor low speed or stall condition torque stability. This is different to torque force at low speed.

In Marklin brochures when they start to introduce those type of motors everything was perfect and great without even one disadvantage line.

I believe there are few reasons why Marklin stop to use them: High price, they need additional controller board, repair is almost impossible, and temperature issue during max load.

Regarding maintenance interval I agree Marklin recommendation is 20hrs, but this is not typical application. BigGrin
Offline Kameni  
#13 Posted : 04 November 2017 19:20:18(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
After research I found that Marklin SDS Motor is produced by company PMDM or Precision Motors Deutsche Minebea GmbH from Villingen-Schwenningen.

It is BLDC 15 compact motor which operates at a voltage of 12 volts and achieves a no-load speed of 12900 rpm.
It has two high-quality miniature ball bearings.
I found that they use bearings form NBM company.
Connection (Kapton) flat cable (8 pins) needs to be customised.
Price of the motor is on request.
But at least it is available.

It is brushless 3 phase DC motor with 12 poles 9 magnets and 3 hall sensors.
70% efficiency at 10.000 RPM
230mA at 12V
Continues power of 2W
PMDM.JPG
thanks 12 users liked this useful post by Kameni
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#14 Posted : 08 November 2017 08:46:54(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
After research I found that Marklin SDS Motor is produced by company PMDM or Precision Motors Deutsche Minebea GmbH from Villingen-Schwenningen.

It is BLDC 15 compact motor which operates at a voltage of 12 volts and achieves a no-load speed of 12900 rpm.


You could have aksed meBigGrin : http://www.h0-modellbahn...Maxon-EC.html#msg3726684

http://www.pmdm.de/uploa...t_BLDC15_2015_web_01.pdf
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 08 November 2017 10:44:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
We could not simply said which is better BEMF or HAL to sense mechanical angle of the motor for our hobby.
What is HAL?
Hall effect sensors measure the speed of rotation, Back-EMF estimates the speed of rotation. While the estimations from Back-EMF work well enough for MRR uses, I have more trust in measurements.

All worked well when Märklin introduced the C Sine motor in 2000.
The nightmare started when they combined the big C Sine motor with mfx decoders and untested electronics and brought the Compact C Sine motor with the same immature electronics.

I sent all my locos with those immature electronics back to Märklin to have them upgraded under warranty.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Kameni  
#16 Posted : 08 November 2017 19:17:49(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
I sent all my locos with those immature electronics back to Märklin to have them upgraded under warranty.


Great, could you please take picture of those Marklin upgrades if they are different form original and please describe what is main difference.
Thanks in advance :-) :_)
Offline cookee_nz  
#17 Posted : 08 November 2017 21:46:02(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,616
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
We could not simply said which is better BEMF or HAL to sense mechanical angle of the motor for our hobby.
What is HAL?


I'm sorry Dave, I cannot allow you to answer that Laugh
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 08 November 2017 21:50:36(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,211
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Hall effect sensors measure the speed of rotation, Back-EMF estimates the speed of rotation. While the estimations from Back-EMF work well enough for MRR uses, I have more trust in measurements.


But for Hall effect sensors to generate any data, you need to have an actual rotation, correct? Wasn't that the point they were making that at very low speeds or stall (no rotation) the hall effect data is non-existent because your getting no precise data at those low frequencies?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 08 November 2017 22:09:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
But for Hall effect sensors to generate any data, you need to have an actual rotation, correct?
As far as I know the Hall sensor detects the strength of magnetic field (which can be static).

We are talking about brushless DC motors. AIUI the driver electronics animate the electromagnetic field of the motor and thus define the speed the motor should have - and the hall sensors verify that the motor turns as expected.

Originally Posted by: Kameni Go to Quoted Post
Great, could you please take picture of those Marklin upgrades if they are different form original and please describe what is main difference.
The new boards have a "csin3" label and consumers typically identify new boards by this label.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Kameni  
#20 Posted : 08 November 2017 22:23:43(UTC)
Kameni

Croatia   
Joined: 16/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Grad Zagreb, Zagreb
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
[The new boards have a "csin3" label and consumers typically identify new boards by this label.

Thanks
Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 09 November 2017 21:14:59(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,211
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
But for Hall effect sensors to generate any data, you need to have an actual rotation, correct?
As far as I know the Hall sensor detects the strength of magnetic field (which can be static).

We are talking about brushless DC motors. AIUI the driver electronics animate the electromagnetic field of the motor and thus define the speed the motor should have - and the hall sensors verify that the motor turns as expected.


Can you clarify how the hall sensor is able to determine the WHY of the motor not turning?
The solution has to determine not only that the motor is turning and at what rate, which could be very slowly, but also why it is not turning at a desired speed.

How does the hall sensor detect that the rotation desired by the input drive current and voltage is not producing the desired rotation?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 10 November 2017 08:42:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Can you clarify how the hall sensor is able to determine the WHY of the motor not turning?
No.
You can read about Hall effect and Hall effect sensors on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect

I can only speculate how the are used in Märklin C Sine motors. It is obvious how they could be used.
The electronics shipped by Märklin do not prevent the motor from overloads, so sometimes the motor becomes so hot that the plastics melt away and the motor will be FUBAR.
Hall sensors can detect that there is no rotation at all - and driver electronics can then increase motor power and if that does not help turn off motor power completely to protect the motor.
Having a motor specified for 12 V and a track voltage in the range of 18 V to 22 V means the electronics have to care for overload protection.

I do not see any technical advantages of Back-EMF over Hall sensors - the former is most likely cheaper and that's why it is used.
I do see technical advantages of Hall sensors over Back-EMF. As always you can have good and not so good implementations. Märklin often talk about premium quality, but often ship dung quality at first. And the "csin3" generation still has some inadequacies.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Minok  
#23 Posted : 10 November 2017 21:36:38(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,211
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So does this not mean the C-Sin Märklin motors are doing almost no control of the motors themselves, and just applying the voltages at the right time? Control would indicate monitoring the rotation or back-emf to detect via the increased current or position that despite power being applied the motor is not turning, and then shutting down the motor when there is a stall condition when none should be. Either the current measurement or positional/rotation measurement solutions would allow for the same.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 11 November 2017 22:46:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
So does this not mean the C-Sin Märklin motors are doing almost no control of the motors themselves
The motor is dumb. It has wires to feed power and wires for the Hall sensors. Speed control and stall detection are potential parts of the driver electronics.

With Back-EMF there is no stall detection either and a blocked/locked motor will be treated with maximum power.

Current measurement? Back-EMF uses voltage measurement. The reading is 0 V for a stalled motor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline cookee_nz  
#25 Posted : 12 November 2017 06:31:35(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,616
Location: Paremata, Wellington
With all the talk on this topic I thought it might help to add Marklin's 'official' blurb about this technology just for those who may not have seen it before....

Enjoy - I hope it's interesting to some.

BigGrin

Cookee

Announcement Video



Announcement Brochure...

SoftdriveSine-1.jpg

SoftdriveSine-4.jpg

SoftdriveSine-3.jpg

SoftdriveSine-2.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 7 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#26 Posted : 12 November 2017 10:30:52(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Thanks, it's very sad, that Märklin deleted all these interesting documents from the homepage. It seems like, Märklin denies it's own technological leadership.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline Minok  
#27 Posted : 12 November 2017 23:31:47(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,211
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
So does this not mean the C-Sin Märklin motors are doing almost no control of the motors themselves
The motor is dumb. It has wires to feed power and wires for the Hall sensors. Speed control and stall detection are potential parts of the driver electronics.


True. My poor writing. When I write motor I meant the physical motor and it's required drive electronics control circuit.

If you have a motor that can overheat there should be part of the control circuits that detects over current and overheating and halts power feed to the motor itself to prevent overheating. Based on the reports of motors melting the plastic the motor is bolted to that doesn't seem to be the case.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

With Back-EMF there is no stall detection either and a blocked/locked motor will be treated with maximum power.

Current measurement? Back-EMF uses voltage measurement. The reading is 0 V for a stalled motor.


Voltage and current are two aspects of the same state that can be detected. Back-emf stall can be detected as a stationary rotor would generate zero back-emf as I understand it so the still applied supply voltage at high current could be detected on the motor inputs. Where you read the current or voltages to detect stall depends on how you build the motor body and windings, right?

In the end it doesn't much matter as the drive systems were designed the way hey were and they have some of the problems they have and the benefit they provide. So whomever buys then has to understand the issues and deploy accordingly.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 13 November 2017 11:14:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Since the '50s I read many times that MRR locos have a mechanical overload protection: wheels are supposed to start slipping before damage to the motor can arise.
So far the theory.

According to this theory it is dangerous to add more traction tyres or to make rails rough with a file or sandpaper as this kills the overload protection .


I once had a loco with a big C Sine motor running amok and pushing against a bumper. The loco lost a few traction tyres and no permanent damage occurred.


I wrote about an SDS motor that got damaged while the loco pushed against a bumper. I don't know if the wheels were slipping or if the motor stalled. If the wheels where slipping (as they should have) then stall detection is not necessary and would not have prevented the death of this motor.

In the past they used oversized motors, gear ratios and combinations of traction tyres that prevented permanent motor damage.

When using underrated motors, they should now use hall sensors, temperature sensors, current sensors or whatever is needed to prevent overload situations and motor damages.
It seems those SDS motors can get overheated and FUBAR without stalling. Stall detection may not be necessary if heat detection is in place.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2021, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.910 seconds.