Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline nitramretep  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2016 01:02:31(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
I have had an occasional short on the layout, a Brawa car may come off the track and the wheels or coupler touches the center rail...sometimes I just get a message on the screen indicating a short. Other times the whole CS2 suts down, it reboots! Is there any adjustment in the CS2 to tolerate shorts, I can understand a re-boot if I was using steel wool to clean the track, but an occasional derail should not do that (?).
Offline stevend  
#2 Posted : 19 October 2016 02:29:16(UTC)
stevend


Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Christchurch,
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
I have had an occasional short on the layout, a Brawa car may come off the track and the wheels or coupler touches the center rail...sometimes I just get a message on the screen indicating a short. Other times the whole CS2 suts down, it reboots! Is there any adjustment in the CS2 to tolerate shorts, I can understand a re-boot if I was using steel wool to clean the track, but an occasional derail should not do that (?).


What is the current size of the power supply? I would suggest that the short is taking all the power and the CS2 sees it's supply voltage drop to the point it reboots.

: )
D
Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 19 October 2016 02:42:10(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
A CS2 should only fail (power off) if the power supply that is supplying it becomes overloaded.

By design this should be prevented by the CS2s configuration settings for the power supply in use.
The CS2 will then ensure "Headroom" and cut off track power before the PowerSupply gets to its threshold

e.g. if you use a 60061 power supply and have told the CS2 you have 60101 it will let you drive through the 3/4 amp mark to try and deliver 5Amps

While supported , the 60052 is a Transformer and has different supply characteristics.
Make sure the CS2 setting matches the PS/Trafo you actually have.


A faulty component is always possible (but rare), especially if the settings were wrong at one stage and the driver transistors were put under prolonged stressed .


And do not discount a poor connections of cross connection exacerbating the issue.
If you do not have clean wiring joins, the resistance will confuse the detection circuitry so that it does not detect a clean short when it occurs.

It is worth using the CS2s inboard current meter to monitor what the normal operating temperature and current are.
Peter
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 19 October 2016 07:42:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Is there any adjustment in the CS2 to tolerate shorts
There is a settings screen where you specify the power supply you are using. All three supported power supplies for 230 V mains voltage are listed. Make sure you have the correct type selected.

I've read that some people had to return their power supplies to Märklin because of this behaviour: Power supply shut off quicker than the CS2 in case of shorts and CS2 had to reboot.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline GlennM  
#5 Posted : 19 October 2016 10:46:11(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
I had the same problem, except my CS2 shut down every time there was a short, and I had to wait for it to reboot, it was very frustrating if you had just added a new loco as the CS2 often forgot the loco and when the power came back on the loco still had the settings that existed before the short but the CS2 could not address the loco immediately.

The problem for me was the transformer (as has been mentioned by Tom above) and not the CS2. A new transformer cured the problem.

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 19 October 2016 17:58:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Doesn´t CS2 do have built-in thermal fuse?
Thermal fuse protect CS2 from short circuit and overload.
To reboot everytime after short circuit are crap.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 19 October 2016 19:07:12(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Doesn´t CS2 do have built-in thermal fuse?
Yes, it does not. Old school, power-off timing is somewhat unpredictable.
CS2 uses quicker electronic overload protection - at least with correct firmware.

But CS2 and power supply have to work hand in hand - if the power supply is too sensible then the CS2 will reboot.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline nitramretep  
#8 Posted : 22 October 2016 02:08:50(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
The CS2 came with a 60065 50VA power supply from the dealer. What is strange that when you try to pick the correct "Trafo" from the list in CS2 you have only three options: 60052. 60061 and 6010 (which might fry an HO layout). Anyone have a clue to why these options do not include the unit it came with? Of not is that all the listed Trafos do not match 60065 in terms of VA.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 22 October 2016 06:38:59(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
.....6010 (which might fry an HO layout).


I think you mean the 60100 100va power supply.


Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Anyone have a clue to why these options do not include the unit it came with? Of not is that all the listed Trafos do not match 60065 in terms of VA.


You should use the 60061 setting.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 22 October 2016 07:08:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Anyone have a clue to why these options do not include the unit it came with?
I don't know why the power supplies for 120 V have a few watts less than their counter-parts for 230 V.

When you set the CS2 language to English you still see a lot of German messages. It fits the picture that the ref. numbers of the 120 V power supplies are also missing.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 24 October 2016 21:45:41(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't know why the power supplies for 120 V have a few watts less than their counter-parts for 230 V.


This seems quite common with electrical equipment that can draw significant current. It would have to due with the AC wiring capacity limits (in the case of, say an electric water boiling kettle, where using 120V AC would require twice the current draw of a 240VAC mains system) or in the way the power is converted/regulated down to the lower voltage (lower input voltages are less efficient to regulate/convert down in the power supplies).

Capture.PNG
(from http://www.apcmedia.com/...Z7/SADE-5TNQZ7_R3_EN.pdf )


So given that the internals of the power supply are likely the same across the 120v vs 240v models (for cost savings reasons) they have to be rated at a lower VA due to the less efficient to convert 120v input.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Minok
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 25 October 2016 09:01:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
This seems quite common with electrical equipment that can draw significant current. It would have to due with the AC wiring capacity limits (in the case of, say an electric water boiling kettle, where using 120V AC would require twice the current draw of a 240VAC mains system) or in the way the power is converted/regulated down to the lower voltage (lower input voltages are less efficient to regulate/convert down in the power supplies).
This applies to wide-range power supplies. Märklin to not sell wide-range power supplies, they have one for 120 V and one for 230 V.

It would be possible to order wide-range power supplies that deliver 60 W with an input voltage of 120 V.

They offer power supplies with 30 W and 55 W for the US. Why can't they offer 36 W for the US?
How much more expensive would a 60 W power supply for 120 V be instead of just 55 W?
While those 5 W more won't make much practical difference, it will reduce the confusion of North American customers.

My CS has an ESU power supply that delivers 90 W with an input range 100 V through 240 V. They can do it. Why can't Märklin?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline nitramretep  
#13 Posted : 25 October 2016 16:57:14(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
Since I am certain Marklin imports the transformer innards from someone else, the cost of having a proper winding for 120VAC primary and an adequate secondary output is not rocket science! Just replace or supply a different transformer for the non 208/220VAC market. It seems strange the transformers do not have a built-in input for 120 VAC, perhaps the Marklin unit is assembled elsewhere and wired only for 208VAC?

I know Shneider Electric or APC is correct about 208/220VAC as being a great primary (due to the decreased amperage) but I hardly think that is going to happen in the Toy Train hobby. Most larger AC units, stationary saws, drills, lathes etc are running at 208/230VAC.

If Marklin is doing this low secondary output to save money then they are less than thoughtful.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 25 October 2016 18:11:25(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

How much more expensive would a 60 W power supply for 120 V be instead of just 55 W?
While those 5 W more won't make much practical difference, it will reduce the confusion of North American customers.


I seem to remember that there is some UL requirement for the max VA rating of a true transformer 9as against a switchmode supply) when sold for use for the type of models marklin supplies, which is why they supplied the slightly lower wattage.

I don't know what the UL requirements are now we have moved on to switchmode supplies.

Offline Minok  
#15 Posted : 25 October 2016 22:36:23(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
True, there is that complication. In the US market, being sold as a 'toy' the government likely has criteria that specify UL testing and limitations/requirements for power supplies for a 'toy'. Add to that, that a manufacturer doesn't want to engineer a new power supply just for one market if all they need to do is put a different mains power lead and different sticker on the same internal electronics.

Remember, the US is the only country in the world one cannot import or even bring with them, the Ferrero Kinder-Egg chocolate eggs with the cool toy kits in a capsule inside. We have overly conservative laws in many cases to protect stupid consumers from themselves. Not saying thats the case here, just that it may well be. ( https://freetheegg.wordpress.com/ )

For machinery, like drills, etc, the higher voltage (220/240v AC) is better because you draw less current to do the same amount of work (via an AC motor), AND can do more work within the current limitations of the supply wiring, than you typically can on a 120v AC circuit.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 26 October 2016 08:29:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Since I am certain Marklin imports the transformer innards from someone else
We are not talking about transformers.
Märklin buy complete China-made switching-mode power supplies from a supplier with headquarter in Germany and production in China.

All Märklin production is in Germany and Hungary. If it comes from a different country then it was bought from a third-party.

Yes, toy approval makes things a bit complicated.
Do we need toy power supplies for Central Stations that are marked "15+"?

If they can make power supplies with 55 W and toy approval, then power supplies with 36 W and toy approval should also be possible - even if 60 W should be beyond the limit for toy approval. Is there a 55 W limit for the US market?
If there is, they could still include that power supply in the UI list.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#17 Posted : 26 October 2016 20:22:38(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
An important point, the power supplies are expressed in VA (Volt Ampere) and not W (Watts) because of how power supplies perform. W ratings require work being done, not just current being consumed, and the capacities/inductive nature of the equipment connected to the power supply can actually draw current while performing no work.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 27 October 2016 07:55:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
An important point, the power supplies are expressed in VA (Volt Ampere) and not W (Watts) because of how power supplies perform.
I thought VA was used for AC outputs because of how (some) AC consumers perform - especially those that convert AC to DC.
1 W is 1 VA, but 1 VA is not always 1 W.

With DC switching-mode power supplies, we have clean DC on the output side. The VA problem applies to the input side.

A thingy that provides DC is never a transformer, it is a power supply. With unstabilised power supplies it is appropriate to talk about VA instead of W.
For the 60101, Märklin write "100 VA" in the title and "100 W" in the description. Similar for 66360. We talk about stabilised DC here and 1 VA is 1 W.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline clapcott  
#19 Posted : 29 October 2016 23:57:25(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
..... Other times the whole CS2 shuts down, it reboots! ...


I should have covered off the following two point earlier.

1) For new users , it is possible to not fully plug the power connector into the back of the Central Station.
This 4 pin heavy duty plug has a spring loaded detent that must be overcome. There is a satisfying cluck/thud when you do get it plugged correctly but until you have done /experienced this yourself at least once it seems like you are having to push rather too hard to get the plug to seat.

Anyway, without the plug fully seated (detented), the pins inside may still make contact and allow the Central station to power up and operate normally. - Until a bit of motion , e.g. touching the cable as you plug something else in or even moving the CS2 as you plug in a LocoCard - at which point you will cause a break (then re make) of the connection.

2) In a similar , bad contact, vein I have personal experience with the (poor) soldering within the plug being "dry" and eventually disconnecting (and reconnecting). This intermittent situation was triggered by glancing movement of the cable itself causing the wire inside the plug breaking contact.

While I have not heard this being announced (here in the forum) as a common problem, I am led to think it may have been a "batch" issue by the fact that there is actually a parts list against the Central Station.
http://www.maerklin.de/s...&artikelnummer=60215

Note: The spare parts list is found against the 60215 whereas my experience was with the part shipped with a 60213. Of course Marklin have been driving users to buy a Power Supply (60061(60065)/60101) which comes with a fixed cable and plug attached, for direct plugging into the Central Station , rather than use the cable (plug and bare ends) shipped with the Central Station, which is for use with the legacy 60052 transformer.
Peter
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#20 Posted : 30 October 2016 00:09:22(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
2) In a similar , bad contact, vein I have personal experience with the (poor) soldering within the plug being "dry" and eventually disconnecting (and reconnecting). This intermittent situation was triggered by glancing movement of the cable itself causing the wire inside the plug breaking contact.

While I have not heard this being announced (here in the forum) as a common problem, I am led to think it may have been a "batch" issue by the fact that there is actually a parts list against the Central Station.
http://www.maerklin.de/s...&artikelnummer=60215


I suspect that I'm having this issue with my 60214 CS2, or it may be with the socket in the CS2. I haven't had the issue when using the power supply with a 60174 booster, so suspect it is the CS2 socket to blame.

Is there a fix - replacement plug / socket maybe?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline clapcott  
#21 Posted : 30 October 2016 01:51:15(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Is there a fix - replacement plug / socket maybe?


A "fix", requires a fair amount of dexterity and "the right technique" to disassemble the plug head, without permanent damage , in order to check/re-solder - but it can be done.

Aside from the Marklin spare part (Cable) offered (as mentioned earlier)
http://www.maerklinshop....er-trafo-cs2-und-booster

PLUG
Jaycar PP0362
https://www.jaycar.co.nz...n-mini-din-plug/p/PP0362
(don't be put off by the incorrect picture, I bought a couple earlier this year and one still has the packaging with PP0362 on it)

Farnell 1876289
http://uk.farnell.com/mu...r-free-4-pole/dp/1876289

SOCKET
Farnell 1876293/1876291
http://uk.farnell.com/mu...vel5_5NP_EngagementRec_1
or
http://uk.farnell.com/mu...291?MER=sy-me-pd-mi-acce
Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 30 October 2016 13:13:11(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
2) In a similar , bad contact, vein I have personal experience with the (poor) soldering within the plug being "dry" and eventually disconnecting (and reconnecting). This intermittent situation was triggered by glancing movement of the cable itself causing the wire inside the plug breaking contact.

While I have not heard this being announced (here in the forum) as a common problem, I am led to think it may have been a "batch" issue by the fact that there is actually a parts list against the Central Station.
http://www.maerklin.de/s...&artikelnummer=60215


I suspect that I'm having this issue with my 60214 CS2, or it may be with the socket in the CS2. I haven't had the issue when using the power supply with a 60174 booster, so suspect it is the CS2 socket to blame.

Is there a fix - replacement plug / socket maybe?


If it is the socket on the cs2 then it is probably a dry joint where the connector is soldered to the PCB.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline kiwiAlan  
#23 Posted : 29 October 2017 14:08:44(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
An important point, the power supplies are expressed in VA (Volt Ampere) and not W (Watts) because of how power supplies perform.
I thought VA was used for AC outputs because of how (some) AC consumers perform - especially those that convert AC to DC.
1 W is 1 VA, but 1 VA is not always 1 W.

Correct. 1VA is 1W if the load is a pure resistor (such as a heater element of a tungsten lamp) but when you start distorting the waveform with non-linear loads then 1VA is not 1W.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

With DC switching-mode power supplies, we have clean DC on the output side. The VA problem applies to the input side.

A thingy that provides DC is never a transformer, it is a power supply. With unstabilised power supplies it is appropriate to talk about VA instead of W.
For the 60101, Märklin write "100 VA" in the title and "100 W" in the description. Similar for 66360. We talk about stabilised DC here and 1 VA is 1 W.


It is appropriate to talk of the output capability in watts, as you note, but the input power does need to be quoted in VA, as this affects how the source feeding your house is configured.

Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.901 seconds.