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Viessmann 4012, ESU Switchpilot and CS2
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Offline fje  
#1 Posted : 17 January 2017 23:12:13(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hi, a friend of mine asked for help, we tried to do some tests, but still not able to have such signal working OK with the CS2.

Let me explain the current configuration. Viessmann 4012 is an "only led light three status" signal.

We have it connected to the an ESU switchpilot using two SWP address, red cable is conected to OUT A of first address, green cable to OUT B of first address, black cable to center of first address and yellow cable to OUT B of second address (we tried with OUT A with similar bad results).

The picture of the CS2 desktop is as follows:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2h5td1f.jpg

Problem now is that as son as yellow light is switched on (for instance status 3) it stays on permanent, when we select status 3, red light switches on, but with yellow light also switched on.

The only way to have it working OK is to select first possition 4, that switches off the yellow light and, then, select either position 1 or 2.

We have read in other posts about problems with Viessmann 4012 and CS2, we have tested with "color light signal" and "scale color light signal", same results....

Any idea of help?

Thanks and kind regards.
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Offline Robert Davies  
#2 Posted : 19 January 2017 01:30:34(UTC)
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Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Let me start off by saying that I don't know anything about ESU Switchpilots but I do know something about Viessmann signals!

With that said, I have looked at the ESU website and it appears to me that the Switchpilot is the ESU equivalent of the Marklin k83 unit which is designed for solenoid accessories. This gives a pulse of power when addressed by the CS2 for moving points or operating solenoid signals. However what the 4013 signal needs is a continuous supply to the LED's so you need a Viessmann 5222 unit to go between the Switchpilot and the signal. See here http://www.viessmann-modell.com...man/5222-02-DE,%20GB.pdf for the instruction leaflet.

I should mention that there is another Viessmann unit that you could use in this situation - the 5210. This lets you control 2 signals from the same unit but it is more expensive than the 5222 and it does not have the train control function that is part of the 5222. Which one you choose depends on what your layout setup is.

From your picture, you seem to have the CS2 set up correctly, by the way.

If I have got the Switchpilot wrong, then ignore all this!!
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline fje  
#3 Posted : 19 January 2017 08:36:22(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

I have looked at the ESU website and it appears to me that the Switchpilot is the ESU equivalent of the Marklin k83 unit which is designed for solenoid accessories.


Hi, Robert, thanks for your answer.

Regarding ESU Switchpilot, you are partially right.

ESU Switchpilot is a programable accesory decoder, you can program via CVs EACH of the outputs (or ALL of them) to act as a Märklin K83 OR as a Märklin K84, that is, a "pulse" output or a "bistable" output.

This way it can be valid for controlling either solenoid or leds signals. Of course, in this case, the two outputs for the 4012 are programmed as K84 and they work as expected, except:

My question is still the same: Why if it is a "three status signal HP0/1/2", it needs FOUR control points in the CS2, including one for switching off the yellow led?

Thanks again and kind regards.

Javier
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Offline Robert Davies  
#4 Posted : 19 January 2017 15:56:30(UTC)
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Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Right - I think I now understand.

The use of the Switchpilot in k84 mode sounds like it ought to remove the need for the 5222 unit but in my head I cannot come up with a way of making it work like that. Supposing you allocate output 1 of the Switchpilot to the red and green lights on the 4012 and output 2 to the yellow. The red/green indication (Hp0/Hp1) will work fine just by addressing output 1 but you will need to address both outputs 1 and 2 to get the green over yellow (Hp2) indication.

The CS2 icon for green over yellow is not designed to work in this way. It expects to address a single k83/k84 output and for that output to translate into green over yellow externally. Marklin signals have built-in decoding for this and I have explained already how Viessmann signals usually do it. Unless you can come up with some way of wiring the 4012 so that Switchpilot output 1 lights the red and green LED's and output 2 is somehow able to turn off the red and light the green and yellow at the same time (and that is what I cannot work out), then you are always going to have to use separate icons on the CS2.

One solution might be use the 'Route' icons on the CS2, with one 'Route' just setting the single Switchpilot address for red/green and a different 'Route' setting both the red/green and yellow addresses but I don't know if you could make this work in your situation.

So far as I can see, the CS2 is behaving normally. It is simply not expecting the situation you have.

Once again, however, if I am misunderstanding how the Switchpilot works, then please excuse me.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline fje  
#5 Posted : 19 January 2017 17:53:10(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hi, Robert, thanks for your explanation.

So, as I understand the problem seems to be in how different are internally "wired" Märklin and Viessmann signals.

We initially solved using a "fourth" command in de CS2 for lighting off the yellow light.

BUT, as I also put our question in another fórum in the Neederlands, I got a posible solution from one of our dutch colleagues that we plan to test shortly.

Should it work (as we hope), I will also put that solution here for general knowledge.

Thanks again and kind regards.

Javier

P.S: Unfortunately it seems that it doesn't work.... Combinating Viessmann 4012 + ESU 51800 Switchpilot in K84 mode + CS2 definitely is not a good idea.Cursing

Edited by user 20 January 2017 08:30:22(UTC)  | Reason: Update after testing possible solution
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thanks 2 users liked this useful post by fje
Offline fje  
#6 Posted : 21 January 2017 19:22:30(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hello...

No way Cursing , when the 4012 is connected to the CS2 via a Märklin K84 or an ESU 51800 Switchpilot, once the yellow light is switched on, it remains switched on and there is a need to click and generate a command to switch it off if one have the need to have a "only red" or "only green" status.

As far as I remember, the Märklin equivalent, connected to an ECoS station didn't need it, but the 4012 connected thru SWP to a CS does need it.

Maybe if we use Viessmann 5213 (that we don't have at this moment) it would work, generating internally the switch off yellow command, but using SWP and CS2 the command has to be generated.

If we use a software as the iTrain, we can tell the iTrain to do it using parameters in the signal definition, as we tested succesfully.

Thanks anyway for your help.

Kind regards.

Javier
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Offline torle  
#7 Posted : 21 January 2017 23:36:54(UTC)
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torle

United States   
Joined: 05/06/2004(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Atlanta, GA
You could create 3 CS2 memory functions to control the signal.
In the functions for signal red and signal green also switch off the yellow.
In signal yellow turn on green and yellow.

-=tom=-
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Offline fje  
#8 Posted : 21 January 2017 23:53:58(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Tom, thanks, I will tell to my friend and ask him for testing.

Javier
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Offline Goofy  
#9 Posted : 22 January 2017 08:05:26(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,019
There is one thing you must keep in the mind about ESU switch pilot.
If switch pilot stand either k83 or k84,you must set MM protocol in the CS2.
If you set switch to the middle,it works only for DCC protocol and that means DCC protocol in the CS2 for the turnouts/signals.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline fje  
#10 Posted : 22 January 2017 10:02:59(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Yes, it is done that way, thanks.

Javier
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Offline Robert Davies  
#11 Posted : 22 January 2017 13:55:28(UTC)
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Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
fje wrote:
Maybe if we use Viessmann 5213 (that we don't have at this moment) it would work, generating internally the switch off yellow command, but using SWP and CS2 the command has to be generated.

The 5213 is only a k84 under another name, and if you look at the instruction leaflet for it, it shows a red/yellow/green signal wired through two outputs. You could do this with your Switchpilot but it would not change how the CS2 works. To get the CS2 to operate as designed, you will have to put the Switchpilot into k83 mode and use a Viessmann 5222 module (or an equivalent, if there is such a thing). That will work, I promise you - I have several signals on my test layout wired like that - and you will get the added advantage of train control if you want it.

fje wrote:
As far as I remember, the Märklin equivalent, connected to an ECoS station didn't need it, but the 4012 connected thru SWP to a CS does need it.

As I said in a previous post, Marklin digital signals have the decoding logic built into their circuit board so they will work with a direct connection, but that is why they are a lot more expensive that the Viessmann equivalents.

Torle wrote:
You could create 3 CS2 memory functions to control the signal.
In the functions for signal red and signal green also switch off the yellow.
In signal yellow turn on green and yellow.

I mentioned this option previously although I incorrectly referred to the memory functions as 'Route' functions. This would work as you can combine multiple CS2 actions into a single command but that will still not make the icon for a red/yellow/green signal on the CS2 work as designed.

Get a 5222, put the Switchpilot into k83 mode and all will be solved! BigGrin
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline fje  
#12 Posted : 22 January 2017 18:07:44(UTC)
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fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
fje wrote:
Maybe if we use Viessmann 5213 (that we don't have at this moment) it would work, generating internally the switch off yellow command, but using SWP and CS2 the command has to be generated.

The 5213 is only a k84 under another name, and if you look at the instruction leaflet for it, it shows a red/yellow/green signal wired through two outputs. You could do this with your Switchpilot but it would not change how the CS2 works. To get the CS2 to operate as designed, you will have to put the Switchpilot into k83 mode and use a Viessmann 5222 module (or an equivalent, if there is such a thing). That will work, I promise you - I have several signals on my test layout wired like that - and you will get the added advantage of train control if you want it.


Get a 5222, put the Switchpilot into k83 mode and all will be solved! BigGrin


Yes and no.... looking about how 5213 should be connected to 4012 it seems that it is "like" a K84 but not exactly.

As far as I know K84 (and SWP acting as K84), you get one of the "power" poles in the central connector of each output and the other one in either the OUTA or OUTB, depending of the command.

Looking at how the 5213 has to be connected to a 4012, you have to connect one of the "power" pole to the common (black) cable of the 4012 and the other one to the central connector of each output, that will pass the current to either OUTA or OUTB depending of the command.

Anyway, we feel we have solved the problem, changing the way the 4012 is defined in the CS2 and also defining the 4012 in the control software we use to control the layout, iTrain.

Thanks and kind regards.

Javier
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