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Offline SteamNut  
#1 Posted : 29 September 2016 22:39:48(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
I planning to create a new layout and there be a mix of analog and digital. I will be using M track to save money. If I have two ovals, one digital and one analog, interconnected at a crossing, each with their own transformers will this work? I realize that you can not use the two transformers on the same oval. With M track you can isolate the middle but not rail (ground). Also is there a source to get additional male and female spade connectors that come with the connector box? Thanks - Fred

Coming this November 12th and 13th in Milwaukee, Wisconsin Trainfest will be held. I plan to be there is there anyone else?
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 29 September 2016 22:48:36(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Having a crossing common to two different circuits is not a good idea. The loco's slider will create a connection between the two which could blow the output stages of the digital circuit.

Why don't you do like I and others do and have the whole layout switchable between analogue and digital controllers? This way is safer, though you have to run either analogue or digital at any one time but not both together.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline SteamNut  
#3 Posted : 29 September 2016 23:19:00(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
I also plan to ask Marklin at Trainfest and most likely more other questions. One reason for me to try this is that one oval can run my analog loks while the other one the digital.
Offline dominator  
#4 Posted : 30 September 2016 00:20:01(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
i RUN
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Offline dominator  
#5 Posted : 30 September 2016 00:29:38(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
I run both system on my layout, and they can be crossed over. I have 3 separated but joining circuits. I don't run from one to the other, but a mistake did happen one day. [ when i didn't think and altered some points, then a double header pair of analogue class 23's trundled over a short section of digital track. It gave the MS2 a fright, but luckily it didn't hurt it [ I hope ]. Both locos were running at approx 1/2 power on my 280 transformer, and i didn't hear a change in speed , but did notice the end of a 9 carriage consist departing a section it should no have been. Also the digital loco stopped and would not go. Shutting down the MS2 fixed the problem [ Phew ]
It has been suggested to but tripping blocks at the joins which allow the shoe to ride up then pivot over so that don't connect both systems.
Dereck

check this out https://www.marklin-user...orum/posts/t36293-16v-AC

Edited by user 30 September 2016 03:52:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dominator
Offline SteamNut  
#6 Posted : 30 September 2016 03:33:17(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
It seems the center rail rockers are not made anymore, a rough estimate is that I would need 12 or more of them as I am still in the planning stages on my layout. The layout I am planning will likely have five circuits. There will be two continuous ovals to run trains, one yard and two towns with switching opportunities. Each circuit will be able to switch between analog or digital. I will install the rockers if I can locate them but one solution would be (certainly not the safest) is to run analog from the yard to the oval then switch to digital.
Offline dominator  
#7 Posted : 30 September 2016 03:51:31(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
I am considering making rockers out of hardwood and gluing them in place. Haven't done it yet so I am more careful in the mean time. Some would say convert all your locos to digital. If you are like me, you have too many to convert economically though. You could probably put delta decoders in them. They might run on the digital then but have the same characteristics as analogue, but less power available. That's my understanding from reading about digital on this forum. Might be wrong so best you check first.
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Offline SteamNut  
#8 Posted : 30 September 2016 04:17:12(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
What I have read is that you have to run the loks at high speed to get over the "hump". In my case they would be located at turnouts which can cause derailments and not very realistic looking. Also I have a Reinegold set that would have two sliders (the lok and the end car) and my old TEE consist which has four sliders to light the cars besides the lok. I really do not want to convert my old loks, cost is part of the reason. Model railroading is full of compromises and this would be one of mine.
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 30 September 2016 08:16:26(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Could you not avoid the problem by designing the layout so that the analogue and digital tracks don't cross? If you do need to cross them over you could have bridges or tunnels instead of flat crossings.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline dominator  
#10 Posted : 30 September 2016 10:04:30(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Your engine would have to move over the rockers but shouldn't need to be that fast [ except for that tricky little loco you have to wind the throttle up to get it going ] The shoe just has to rock over. As for the passenger cars, so long as the cars are not connected electrically to each other or the loco, I can't see a problem. Whatever you do, common sense rules.

Why don't you try it. You could test quickly by wrapping part of a match stick in paper and jam the ends of the paper between the ends of the track. Now I have thought of it. I will try it myself.

Dereck

Just tested the idea. class 23, DA800 at 1/4 throttle on 280 transformer moves over ok. It does hesitate as the shoe looses contact, but loco not moving that fast. Any slower and it might stop. Not a big deal eh.

My test rocker was the same height as the rail. Maybe too high, but it worked.

Dereck
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Offline PJMärklin  
#11 Posted : 30 September 2016 13:49:39(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Having a crossing common to two different circuits is not a good idea. The loco's slider will create a connection between the two which could blow the output stages of the digital circuit.



(Unless you run only electric loco analogues and power them only through the overhead)

Regards,

PJ
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 30 September 2016 14:07:54(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Having a crossing common to two different circuits is not a good idea. The loco's slider will create a connection between the two which could blow the output stages of the digital circuit.



(Unless you run only electric loco analogues and power them only through the overhead)

Regards,

PJ


Yes of course, but then you don't need to worry about the two systems meeting just at the crossing. You could have the whole layout with digital on the overhead and analogue on the centre studs or vice-versa.

I had also suggested my solution which is the whole layout being switchable between analogue and digital.

I think a different concept is being discussed here, as the OP wants to have two intersecting loops with different systems.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline cliff24g  
#13 Posted : 30 September 2016 23:52:53(UTC)
cliff24g


Joined: 06/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: USA
I don't mean to hi-jack this topic but I have a related question. I am just getting back into Marklin and getting my toes wet with digital. If my questions sounds stupid, I apologize in advance. It is logical and possible to wire my layout for both digital and analog so I could run the entire operation in the analog mode with no digital operations? At conclusion of the session unplug the analog transformer. Then when I want to run digital, leave the analog transformer unplugged, plug in the digital transformer. I would be using C track.
Offline SteamNut  
#14 Posted : 01 October 2016 00:48:13(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Yes you can my main concern was at first if the ground of the two different transformers would interfere with each other when both are used at the same time and the ovals are only isolated at the center section. Unplugging as you propose is the sate way to go. The slider issue as mentioned is valid considering what I want to do but I have a way to operate the way I want to but certainly not the safest. The way the wiring is proposed, in my mind, my circuits can be switched to analog or digital and there will be about five - Fred
Offline mike c  
#15 Posted : 01 October 2016 02:59:08(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The safest way to do this would be to space the ovals by using a straight section between the quarter curves of the 5200 radius track, which would enable you to install a buffer track between the two ovals, where you could run a train from one system into the bridging track. Once the train was safely in this track section, you could shut off the power supply of oval A and select the other power supply and the train would then move onto the other oval. To do this, you would require two isolation sections and a switchable power supply which would allow you to select A or B as power supply for the bridging track section. By using an A/B switch (either or), you can ensure that the two power supplies are never jointly connected.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#16 Posted : 01 October 2016 03:04:18(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: cliff24g Go to Quoted Post
I don't mean to hi-jack this topic but I have a related question. I am just getting back into Marklin and getting my toes wet with digital. If my questions sounds stupid, I apologize in advance. It is logical and possible to wire my layout for both digital and analog so I could run the entire operation in the analog mode with no digital operations? At conclusion of the session unplug the analog transformer. Then when I want to run digital, leave the analog transformer unplugged, plug in the digital transformer. I would be using C track.


There is a significant risk in leaving a transformer unplugged (mains) while still connected to the layout at the transformer will convert the track voltage into mains level output, leaving live prongs on the end of the power cord.

At the same time, operating analog voltage while the digital controller was still connected to the track will likely result in excess voltage being fed into the output capacitors of the digital controller.

Your safest option would be to install an either/or switch that would select between the two systems and would only allow one of them to be in use at a time and would also protect the outputs of each transformer/controller from damage by the other system. You may also wish to ensure that the switch cuts off not only the red (live), but also the brown (return) so that the transformer not being used is completely isolated from the layout when not in use.

Regards

Mike C
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