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Offline garben  
#1 Posted : 21 October 2015 23:02:26(UTC)
garben

United States   
Joined: 23/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: New York
Does anyone have an alternate solution for controlling power to track in a hidden storage yard? I really do not want to spend the money on signals that no one is going to see.

I will be using detection tracks along with the 88 and the CS2 and looking to automate switching.

Thanks.
Offline Thewolf  
#2 Posted : 22 October 2015 00:07:32(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Hi garben BigGrin

I use a software for the control of my layout. His name is ''Itrain''.

I have 2 stations hidden with 5 and 6 sidings.

I use M84 and I do not need signals

Have a good evening

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline French_Fabrice  
#3 Posted : 22 October 2015 08:10:45(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,475
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Garben,

An example of automated shadow station using k83/k84 can be found here (download the pdf):
https://www.marklin-user...ps-and-tricks#post457561


Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#4 Posted : 22 October 2015 13:00:31(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
I use m84 as well. Works without any problems.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline Harvey  
#5 Posted : 23 October 2015 02:14:27(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 591
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
I use reeds to detect the train and K83/84 to switch the turn outs and turn current on/off. Works well.

Harvey
Offline Thewolf  
#6 Posted : 23 October 2015 17:36:47(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
I use reeds to detect the train and K83/84 to switch the turn outs and turn current on/off. Works well.

Harvey


me too
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 21 September 2016 14:39:29(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
In a digital system, there is no need to remove power from the tracks in the hidden storage yard at all.

My storage yard is has full power in all tracks at all times.

The whole idea of digital control is to keep the power on and tell the locos when to stop/go/drive using the information in the digital signal.

Since there is no need to remove power, you don't need to install power controlling signals or any other form of power interruption mechanisms.

here is a video before I constructed the upper layer making the station hidden: http://cabinlayout.mixmo...idden-station-automation
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#8 Posted : 21 September 2016 18:13:13(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
The whole idea of digital control is to keep the power on and tell the locos when to stop/go/drive using the information in the digital signal.

Since there is no need to remove power, you don't need to install power controlling signals or any other form of power interruption mechanisms.

Your solution will only work when a computer is involved. When you are using only the CS2 there is no way to solve this without some sort of help from braking modules or m84 decoders or similar. We have had this debate before. There can be thousands of reasons for not wanting a computer in the train room.

Edited by user 21 September 2016 21:52:59(UTC)  | Reason: Duplicate sentences

Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 21 September 2016 21:47:33(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
True. The original poster did say for controlling power - that would preclude the options that don't remove power. But nothing wrong with bringing up the other options. We don't really know for sure what the OP needs, maybe digital is the best solution for what he really wants, he just didn't know it when he asked the question.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 22 September 2016 10:36:37(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
The whole idea of digital control is to keep the power on and tell the locos when to stop/go/drive using the information in the digital signal.

Since there is no need to remove power, you don't need to install power controlling signals or any other form of power interruption mechanisms.

Your solution will only work when a computer is involved. When you are using only the CS2 there is no way to solve this without some sort of help from braking modules or m84 decoders or similar. We have had this debate before. There can be thousands of reasons for not wanting a computer in the train room.



Ahh....

... the CS2 route control (memory) is quite capable of stopping a locomotive by sending it a "Speed 0" instruction, without removing power.
Peter
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#11 Posted : 22 September 2016 17:58:39(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
... the CS2 route control (memory) is quite capable of stopping a locomotive by sending it a "Speed 0" instruction, without removing power.

You can record a macro that stops a specific locomotive - not a random one in a specific section. I think this is an important difference. Your solution is depending on known outcomes for this to work. Meaning that you teach the CS2 to run your layout in a specific way by setting up Memory-routines and run them in a specific order. This can be pretty powerful, but it is a pre-configured control flow, and I cannot change a loco without having to reconfigure the control flow. I cannot decide to just run my trains in another way and have them stop automatically in front of signals.

In my opinion this has nothing really to do with true braking and stopping of random trains approaching a signal in a specific section.

The CS2 - to my knowledge - cannot look at a section of track, and determine that "218 150" is there and send a stop command to it. It does not follow the movements of known locomotives in order to be able to make assumptions about their position and stop them that way. This is currently only available in computer software or some Railcom enabled controllers.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline clapcott  
#12 Posted : 23 September 2016 03:07:08(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
... the CS2 route control (memory) is quite capable of stopping a locomotive by sending it a "Speed 0" instruction, without removing power.

You can record a macro that stops a specific locomotive - not a random one in a specific section. I think this is an important difference. Your solution is depending on known outcomes for this to work. Meaning that you teach the CS2 to run your layout in a specific way by setting up Memory-routines and run them in a specific order. ...


In the context of this thread ...

Quote:
Alternate to signals in a hidden storage yard


I think my option is quite appropriate and rather an elegant one. Certainly saves on buying signals.

Just because it may get a bit more complex if you want to extend the "hard" logic of the CS2 to manage other aspects when ".. out on the main ..." does not mean it is not possible. And there is no need to get hung up on RailCom or Lissy if you work on the basic principle that only one train is allowed in a block, so any , traditional, sensor will just qualify where it is within that block.
Peter
Offline sjlauritsen  
#13 Posted : 23 September 2016 07:08:27(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
In the context of this thread ...
Quote:
Alternate to signals in a hidden storage yard

Definitely in the context of this thread. Your solution can of course be made to work, but I get the feeling that your definition of a staging yard might be different than mine.

I look at it this way: A staging yard is a place I can send trains, at random order, at any given time in an operating session and expect the staging yard to automatically handle whatever comes its way. I usually set up my staging yards as a first in, first out queue: 1 train leaves, 1 train enters. If the staging yard is full, trains will queue up behind it.

Looking at it this way, and I may be missing something, I do not see how this can be made possible with the Memory-solution.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline siroljuk  
#14 Posted : 23 September 2016 08:42:50(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hello Everyone.BigGrin

While waiting for the arrival of the new CS3 + I thought to write some of my thinking of this issue.( how to automate "train flow" in hidden area) and on the whole layout.

First in my opinion when automate, you have to plan the route for automated train. You have to think in advance where the train starts where it stops and what is the target. And of course you have to think about all maneuvers during the route, stopping, speeds in different areas voices etc. You can do this with CSx and S88-trickering knowing where the train is going. But you don't know what train trigger S88 contact if there are more than one train going.

When you run two or more trains on your layout you easily can handle their routes by using FLAGS with S88. The FLAG is a permanent switch ( on-off) connected into S88 devices port dedicated to only to one specific train. You need two FLAGS for one train, one for knowing that train is on the layout and second for knowing whether train is running or when it is stopped. CSx can handle these FALGS as conditions in side routes.

I can say that it is not very easy to make automated routes for several train running at the same time, but possible.

You need quite many S88 devices and if you need more complex actions to automate use M83 or M84 devices just like relays to make more FLAGS. By modifying M83 CV's you can make eight FLAGS and using M84 devices you can randomize actions using CSx's route-programming.

At the moment I have 10 manual switches for FLAGGING and I have made LED-light for every switch in order to see easily which trains are running at the time.

Finally if you have CSx you have a computer in your train room. I hope that CS3+ brings us more possibilities to program layouts more easily than CS2 have at the moment. You don't have to cut power at any point on layout when using digital devices and trains.


Well . . .

Happy Training EveryoneBigGrin

Regards

Jukka





Offline sjlauritsen  
#15 Posted : 23 September 2016 09:09:12(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: siroljuk Go to Quoted Post
Finally if you have CSx you have a computer in your train room.

LOL. Smile By "not wanting a computer in the train room", I meant not wanting to have a PC (in my case) running the WinDigipet software or similar. Everything "digital" can be considered a computer in some form these days. I consider the CS an appliance more than a computer (in the form of a PC or laptop).

Originally Posted by: siroljuk Go to Quoted Post
I hope that CS3+ brings us more possibilities to program layouts more easily than CS2 have at the moment. You don't have to cut power at any point on layout when using digital devices and trains.

I do not see this solution cover the use case where a friend brings his trains to my home and have them run on my layout. I want to be able to just put a loco on the track and have it work without having to reconfigure a lot of stuff. We do this all the time, so this scenario is important to me.

I agree that you could program a solution where everything would work without having braking modules. I have created complex shuttle train scenarios this way with bells and whistles and trains passing each other. It is really powerful, but it is definitely not for everybody. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline siroljuk  
#16 Posted : 23 September 2016 11:12:26(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hi Sören, and others as well.

I agree that the way I think of how to automate is not suitable for situations where visitors want to run their trains in my fully automated layout.
I also agree that all of you don't want and perhaps even can not do complicated system. I only want to tell those who can and want to, will know different ideas that can be done.

I live in the middle of the forest in middle of Finland and unfortunately I don't have such friends which have this kind of hobby, Märklin trains.Crying

I have seen only once someone to use really complicated programming with CS2+M83+M84+ROUTE-possibility. That person made for instance very complicated random generator using M84 and S88 tricking, that was amazing. Using FLAGS was a minor part of that programming. Cool Cool

Perhaps it is good for all of you to know that in the beginning of my working life I was computer programmer in early 1970's. And I did that work all the time for 40 years. I was working in large IT-corporation all that time in various jobs and retired 2014.
I like computers, all kind of, and the salt of my life is to make functional programs for these devices. Now I'm still doing programming, it is good for your brains.

That is that, I hope you all enjoy your trains and systems

Happy Training BigGrin BigGrin

Regards

Jukka



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Offline sjlauritsen  
#17 Posted : 23 September 2016 11:47:38(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: siroljuk Go to Quoted Post
I have seen only once someone to use really complicated programming with CS2+M83+M84+ROUTE-possibility. That person made for instance very complicated random generator using M84 and S88 tricking, that was amazing. Using FLAGS was a minor part of that programming.

That is truly amazing. I wonder how he did that? Did he have some sort of initial seed number he created by flipping switches? Of course using seed numbers would not be completely random, but it would be good enough to create some interesting stuff. I am thinking trains that some times stop at stations and some times does not.

My experiments does not go that far.

In my own yard I have experimented with automatic selection of vacant tracks. The CS2 would automatically select the first available track it could find when a train approaches the staging yard. This allowed me to have more than one vacant track in the staging yard at any given time.

Sending trains off automatically when taking several potentially vacant tracks into consideration was a bit more complicated.

If I just applied the opposite logic of selecting a vacant track, the CS2 would select the first occupied track and send that train off. This does not work in reality, because I would end up with the trains on the first tracks almost always running, because their tracks would also be occupied again by another train almost immediately.

I needed a way to save variables. Some sort of virtual occupancy detector with the ability to set and to read the value would to the trick (basically a boolean array). Since this is not possible (on the CS2 anyway, I think the ECoS has this feature), I used an m84 and had it occupy S88-ports. One port represented one track in the staging yard. Whenever a train ran from that track, the CS2 would flip the switch representing that track. That way the logic knew that this track would have to wait until all the other tracks had their turn.

A rather expensive solution, but it works pretty well. There are of course cheaper decoders than the M84 for this sort of thing. Smile

I ended up not applying the setup to my current layout, because I found that it was much less of a hassle to just setup my standard FIFO-queue solution. But it was a fun project though. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline siroljuk  
#18 Posted : 24 September 2016 09:37:11(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hi Sören,
I have sent a personal e-mail to you.
Regards

JukkaBigGrin
Offline dickinsonj  
#19 Posted : 26 September 2016 01:57:39(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
What an interesting thread. Cool

I have been meaning to devote some time to learning more about the uses of the M83 and M84 decoders with my CS2 but have not yet gotten around to doing that. I have only had my CS2 for 6 months and I have not had the time to fully explore all of the things that it can do.

Søren and Jukka have offered some intriguing possibilities and now I really must learn more!

This blog article of Søren's provides a great overview: http://railway.zone/post...-way-it-should-have-been

Now I just need to do my research and start figuring out all of the things that can be automated with these peripherals.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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