Hi Chuck,

Thank you for your compliments, and Welcome to the forum !

Well, you are in need of some kind of "Marklin digital beginner's guide".

This thread is more dedicated to "driving a layout with a software", which is too much advanced for what you are looking for. The only common point with your expectations, is you need a full digital layout being set before allowing computer driving, and especially automation...

Anyway, I'll try to give you some first answers. Then, I suggest you either to browse the forum (or use the search function), and/or create a new post (or many) in the "Digital" section. You will find that many people have the same questions as you, and most of the answers are already there.

I begin with a bit of history. I think it will be useful to understand where we come from... Even if I'm not strictly exact or some infos are missing, the general idea is correct.

1) The beginning
Marklin has created the first digital system for model railroad in the early 1980s.

The technical ideas are:
-Many locos on the same electric circuit can be driven at different speed, each loco separately and regardless of each other
-The speed of a loco is no more linked to the voltage level provided by the voltage regulator of an analog transformer.
-Instead, the voltage level is always "Vmax" in digital system. To be able to drive each loco separately, a special electronic device (a loco decoder), must be embedded in each loco. This decoder analyzes special binary information, which among other infos provides the speed level...
-To "speak" to each loco, a transformer (analog) is not adequate. A specialized "command center" must be used to be able to "speak" with each loco decoder. Each loco on the same electric circuit is different from another one by the address (numeric value) of the decoder. The address of a loco is set by 8 micro-switches in the decoder. The "language" spoken from the command center to the decoder is called a "protocol" (how the binary information must be sent to be understandable). The first protocol was called "Motorola" protocol, then later called MM1 protocol.
-The first "command center" was the 6020 (central unit), then a bit later the 6021 (control unit). The command center (6020) was a "black box", without any button on it. You must at least add one device allowing human interaction, equipped with a rotating knob and a set of buttons allowing to enter the address of a loco decoder, and a button allowing to activate / deactivate the lights of a loco. This device what called a "control 80" (6035). The 6021 was a 6020+6035 in one box. 80 addresses were available for locos.
-To drive the switching of the turnouts and/or the signals in digital mode, specials external devices must be added. This device is called a decoder for electromagnetic devices. The name was K83 (6083) for temporary pulses (solenoid devices) and K84 (6084) for permanent circuit flip-flop (for instance, provide some light to buildings). Each K83 was able to drive 4 different turnouts/signals; Same thing for the K84 which allowed to permanently switch 4 distinct electric circuits. A total of 255 addresses is available for electromagnetic devices. Each K83/K84 decoder has 8 micro-switches inside allowing to change the base address.
-To allow human interaction with the turnouts/signals/light circuits, a specialized command box "Keyboard" (6040) was added to the 6020/6021.
-The last novelty created, was about feedback occupation of the tracks by loco/coaches/wagons. The goal was to be able to provide some basic (and sometimes advanced) automation features. A special electric circuit separated of the main digital power is used. It is called the S88 circuit (or S88 bus). Special decoders (S88 decoders), each having 16 distinct input plugs, are used for feedback information. A maximum of 31 S88 decoders may be chained together.
-To allow human interaction in setting a sequence of turnout/signals switches based on feedback information, an additional box was mandatory with the 6020/6021. This box was called the "Memory" (6043).
-Finally, an other additional box allowing a serial connection at 9600 bauds from a computer to the 6020/6021, was called "Interface" (6050/6051).

2) from the beginning to 2004
-Other manufacturers have also created electronic digital systems, mainly in the 2-rail world. They also started to develop an other protocol, called the DCC protocol. It allows much more addresses (today, around 10000 addresses for locos, and 2048 for solenoid devices). The S88 bus was unchanged, and became a "de facto" standard.
-Marklin enhanced a bit the number of functions available for a loco, with 4 more additional functions (F1 to F4, loco lights is called F or F0)
-Marklin launched a new track system, called C-Track (beginning of 2000's)

3) from 2004 until now
-Marklin created an all-in-one command center called the CS1 (central + 2*control80 + 128*keyboard + memory + interface) (ref 60212), with a 8-inch yellow/black sensitive screen, 2 command knobs, many functions buttons and an ethernet interface to computer. The CS1 was manufactured by ESU. The CS1 is a mini computer dedicated to model railroad command.
-At the same time a new protocol called "mfx" was launched. Its main feature is the automatic recognition of a loco (no more need to set the address with the micro-switches)
-Loco decoders, then later accessory decoders, started to be programmable by software, using a set of CV (Configuration Variables)
-In 2008, a new CS was launched: the CS2 (60213). Its features included a full redesign, a color screen, and the ability of speaking multiple protocols (MM1, mfx and DCC)
-The last CS were the 60214 and 60215 with no major enhancement compared to the 60213 (more recent firmware, more output power and a galvanic insulation)
-Marklin stopped the production of M-Tracks; MM1 protocol was enhanced to allow 255 loco addresses (on very recent locos), and 320 addresses for solenoid devices.
-A new set of devices, replacing K83/K84/S88 have been launched last year. They are called M83/M84/L88... I don't know them, except M83/M84 support MM and DCC and mfx protocol.

4) Back to your questions
4.1) M-Track

4.1.1) normal tracks
Some members say it's better to switch to K or C. Others say the opposite and say digital is working fine with M.
My personal opinion is "I don't know", as I've switched to K-track 30 years ago. I think that if the tracks are in good condition (no rust), it should run fine most of the time.
Advice: browse the various threads related to M-track and digital and/or create a new dedicated thread in "Digital" section.

4.1.2) turnouts
-A K83/M83 must be used to drive 4 turnouts/signals
-About the lantern, it should run without trouble, except you are wasting "digital power for locos".
Advice: Search for more infos on this topic or use a dedicated booster to drive accessories

4.1.3) contact tracks for feedback
-M tracks use special contact tracks 5115/5145 for feedback, which have the 2 rails insulated from the metal (in a normal track, both external rails have the same "0" potential)
-They may be difficult to find. Other solutions are "reed" feedback + magnet or "control" tracks.
Advice: browse the forum about this topic, answers are already there

4.2) K or C-track
-Both are fine for digital (avoid 2100 K-track series, use 2200 K-track series instead)
-Common problem: the turnout engines for both K and C-track have many trouble (not reliable). The problem exists since a long time. No definitive solution yet (except use of 'servos') but workaround exists. Browse the forum, many many posts discuss this topic.

4.3) Getting rid of a million blue boxes
-The CS2 has 128 pages of 16 entries to drive 2048 turnouts (320 with MM protocol); no more blue boxes needed... but if you're in a hurry to switch manually turnout 8, 99, 268 very quickly, you first have to switch with the stylus to the good page before... which may be too late...
Advice: go to marklin web site, go to the "Tools & Download/Product database", then search for item 60215 and download the user's manual of the CS2.


4.4) Converting a loco from analog to digital
It's a vast topic !
-a loco decoder is mandatory. Many brands are available. I recommend either Marklin or ESU (my personal choice is ESU). You need soldering abilities and a solder iron for electronics. It's not very difficult but you must be careful.
-The main problem is the mechanical part, which depends on the model you want to upgrade. This topic may be long to discuss in general, so provide either the reference of the loco to convert and/or its type, and browse/ask the forum how to convert such a loco... Generally, with recent decoders, at least the magnet must be changed. ESU has magnets for standard Marklin engines. When converting an analog loco, the inverter must also be removed. If your loco has a standard Marklin engine AND a standard brush plate, you may use Marklin conversion kits (engine only) 60941, 60943 or 60944 depending of the engine type, then add a decoder of your choice.

Advice1: An engine cleanup is recommended if the loco hasn't run since a long time. You must disassemble the engine for this. Lighter fluid is adequate to clean it up.
Advice2: Some Marklin dealers are able to convert analog locos to digital. Ask them...

4.5) Which "Central Station" ?
-I know 2 brands: Marklin and ESU. Many others exist but I don't know them. I personally own a CS2 (60214) and I'm pleased with it.
-Marklin have a smaller version of the CS2, called the MS2 with less features.
Advice: Browse the forum to learn more infos on MS2 (I don't have some), and to decide if a MS2 is enough to start (MS2 price is 100 EUR, CS2 price is 800 EUR !)

4.6) Discard the block process until you're fluent with all digital basic behavior

5) Misc. infos
Marklin is planning to publish the long awaited "Beginner's guide" (ref 03081). See there:
http://www.maerklinshop....in-maerklin-digital-book
I hope you are able to read German...The planned delivery date for this item is November 2015.


I hope this basic information will answer some of your expectations.

Cheers
Fabrice

Fabrice your description is the best historical explanation of the Marklin digital system and its components that I have read in English.
Thank you.

Regards....Chook.

Hi Chuck,

Some quick answers:

Turnouts

-I use K83 for driving K-turnouts with Marklin motors. The points are moved immediately (no slow movement).
-When I do not want to use Markin motor with K-turnouts, I use ESU servos and a special decoder (ESU SwitchPilot Servo V2, with DCC protocol). Use of servos allows a) slow movement and b) reliability. Please note that using servos implies a permanent layout, and not a "carpetbahn".
-For C-track turnouts, you may either use K83/M83 or use an embedded (single) decoder located below the turnout. In the later case, no K83/M83 is required. The reliability of C-track turnout motor is not better than K-track.

Converting a 3048

I have a 3048, bought in 1970, that I've converted 4 years ago.
-The brush plate is not standard, so no possibility to put a 5-pole motor kit 60944. Instead, I've changed the inverter coil with a permanent magnet from ESU (51960).
-The choice of decoder: Either Marklin or ESU. As I've chosen ESU for all the decoders I'm fitting, I put a 54610 (NO sound)
-There is enough room to put an ESU 54610/64610 decoder where was located the inverter
-The most boring thing is replacing the front lamp. The genuine lamp is wired against the chassis. If you let it as it, the light will flicker (see explanation in ESU manual).
-The original smoke device runs well with the decoder
-I have never converted a loco from analog to digital WITH sound. If you wish to convert a 3048, then I'm thinking the decoder & loudspeaker should be located in the tender...
-Browse the forum about 3048 conversion. Some people have already done it.

Cheers
Fabrice

Edited by user 14 September 2015 18:57:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hello friends,

A recent thread opened by John (river6109) is of great interest for computer driven layout.

It covers most of the essential questions a beginner (in computer driven layout domain) may asks.

Among the various questions, you may find in this thread some answers about:
-How to do the transition from and already built digitized layout to the computer world
-Pros and cons of different ways to have layout feedback
-What to do imperatively (Read the doc, and go step by step)
-Some thoughts about still having a CS2-like device or not
-Which program to use (always a sensitive & complex question... )
-...and more

Instead of doing a summary of the content, it's quicker to provide the link.
https://www.marklin-user...ces-and-programs-you-use

John's thread may also generate new questions.
Feel free to post these new questions either here (not to hijack John's thread if the questions haven't strong correlation to original topic) or anywhere in a new thread.

Thanks to all members who have already provided information.

Cheers
fabrice

John,

I really share the same thoughts.

A glossary of terms is an extremely good idea. Please tell me which acronyms/abbreviations would need to be explained, and I'll initiate a post which may be enhanced by many members.

This current thread has been made sticky thanks to Juhan's kindness.

Creating a new sub-forum dedicated to computer driven layout may also be interesting. The difficulty is how to structure it (and if it needs to be structured !).
Having a structured thing eases understanding, but may also prevent creativity from many members... and the work to do is huge ! It's up to Juhan to decide if it's worth the job.

If we stay with the current thread organization, maybe a table of contents/table of topics can be an intermediate solution ? It will provides links to other threads...

Among various topics/threads, I'm thinking about:
-Concepts/basics of computer driven layout
-Essential hardware
-Feedback techniques and correlated hardware
-How to transform an existing layout towards a computer driven layout
-Softwares (there is a risk such a topic becomes controversial...)
-Books
-What a beginner must read and understand (maybe a set of links to other topics ?)
-feel free to add other topics
...while staying in the Marklin world.

Not obvious but really interesting .


Cheers
Fabrice

Fabrice, I've just noticed a sticky, will let you know tomorrow which abbreviations there are.

regards.,

John

Hello Dale,

Please find reasons below highlighted in blue to your general comments which are or could be misleading to less experienced users.

Fabrice: here is an example


An Arduino or RaspberryPi sort of solution would also be possible. However, thats more for folks that want the joy of doing the hardware and firmware writing fun.
I am, at present, completing a course in VHDL (I took a university course in Verilog about 12 years ago) - so using that technology I'd even be able to program an FPGA to create the track signalling in a very fast and reliable way. All a wonderful project. All not where I want to necessarily spend my hobby time at this point. I think I'd get more "joy by the minute" in laying out track, building substructure, mountainsides, bridges, laying out train stations, and the somewhat less 'electronics involved' tasks. I think I can do both, and maybe some day, I'll even look at building an FPGA based solution that could do mFX (assuming its not cryptographically protected).. but for now I'll stick to someone else building/testing the hardware.

regards.,


John

One second... I've got to reboot my brain here. I read Johns post and immediately my brain set of an alert, "Didn't I write something like that on a post? I swear I did. Those sound like my words. Am I loosing my mind? Maybe there was a posting glitch in the board system?" Now, in the larger context, I get what is going on - John was quoting my post as an example of terminology overload. Yup, I'm guilty and will try to explain.

The discussion my quote came from was where I was looking for the most efficient way of getting the computer control signals form the PC software encoded into the right protocols (say mfx or MM) and onto the track rails. The idea of buying a Central Station for the sole purpose of it being an interface to the PC that did the real control work seemed wrong - there should be, for those intending to use computer control, a way to get the PC generated commands encoded in the right protocol and put on the track (ie modulated into the power that is put on the track). So we were discussing ways of doing this.

The Central Station (CS1,CS2 and upcoming CS3/3plus) are computers themselves (they run linux I've read). So they boot up, and have a general purpose microprocessor in them that reads software instructions from onboard memory (the firmware), and consumes power at the rate of the internal computer system that is the Central Station, plus the power drawn by the consumers on the layout (locomotives, car and layout lighting, switches, signals, etc).

A more fundamental (and way more hobbyist) approach is to control things at a much lower level. As Fabrice mentioned, if you wanted to build your own replacement for a Central Station like device. The terms are more in the electrical & computer engineering realm than train digital control.

Arduino and Raspberry Pi - small computers on a small circuit board with basic input/output
One can use a smaller mini-computer on a board: Arduino and Raspberry Pi are such devices. You write software on a normal PC, put that software (firmware) onto the Arduino or Raspberry Pi system and have a mini-central station without all of the knobs, LCD display and the like. These small computers on a board have input/output pins and other standard interfaces for network, USB, audio, can drive LEDs etc. So if you want to save some money (in exchange for a lot of time likely to exceed the money saved divided by your hourly pay rate), you can build your own Central Station like device. You'd need to be an electronics hobbyist and get joy out of doing that electronics and programming (and not miss the train aspect while your working that) to go down that path.

FPGA/Verilog/VHDL - even lower level digital logic circuit design for the electrical engineering junkie
To get even closer to the pure electrical signal stuff one can, where it makes sense, forgo a chip that executes instructions, and instead implement a digital logic circuit out of logic gates and other silicon chip components (bits that are on the chips of a general purpose computer CPU as well as basic logic). The benefit of such a very low level design is you can make your solution very fast, and it uses the least power possible. Think of this as soldering together a bunch of logic gates and some higher level logic components: logical AND, OR, NOR, NOT gates, simple memory blocks you can shift digital data bits into and out of, and the like.
In the modern world, rather than building a very big circuit board with dozens of individual chips, designers make use of a generic chip (FPGA - Field Programmable Gate Array) and then just program it. The FPGA has a large pool of the various logic gates and components one used to buy small individual chips to get - they are all built onto the silicon inside the single FPGA chip. However, you can configure how that FPGA chip works by connecting up its individual logic parts via some instructions. VHDL and Verilog are the languages used to describe how the logic on such an FPGA chip should work (logically) - which is the converted into data that is sent to the FGPA when it boots up to configure it to be the circuit you want. That circuit can have somewhat arbitrary amounts of input and output pins and could well work to read/write mfx, mm, and other protocols with a lot of work (assuming the mfx protocol isn't encrypted). If you found you made a mistake in how you wired up the internals of the FPGA, you can change our sofware description (in Verilog/VHDL) and produce a new set of configuration data for the FPGA - no need to unsolder anything or rewire it (unless you added or changed what the pins out of the FPGA did).

The conclusion I'd posted on the other thread was that while building my own CS replacment might be a fund electronics and design project for someone, I'm more interested in working with the trains and layout construction, so even though it may end up being a seeming too expensive for what I use it for device, I may likely end up with a Märklin Central Station as my PC to Track interface, never using the CS features on the device itself.

To my knowledge Traincontroller does not have such a feature as mentioned above. However in the gold version you can use below features:

Scheduled watchdogs: you can set a max time interval between 2 indicators. If the train does not arrive within the set time the software assumes the train got stuck somewhere between the 2 contact indicators.

Detection of lost cars: with a special rule in a schedule it's possible to define a preset number of passed blocks that are being kept reserved that will result in a red signal in the block the train presently is occupying.

Unless you have a huge layout I haven't really had issues with lost cars and collisions. I normally spot any lost car before the accident happens. Like in the real life the dispatcher still needs to keep an eye out.

By the way the Traincontroller manual clearly states as well advantages of using occupancy rather than momentary sensors, but with computer control the main thing is to have a well designed and adequate block systems, to few sensors = less control and automation.

Brgds Lasse

Hello,

Quite a while I didn't post there !

I add this link: https://www.marklin-user...-s88-feedback#post611018
in case you have some instability with S88 feedback.

Beware: it is not a general answer on how to get rid of S88 instability. It is related to a very special case.

The reason why I add this link is because having unstable S88 feedback prevents automatic driving of trains with a software.

Cheers
Fabrice

I'm sure Fabrice will reply in the morning. However, I can confirm that I use the PECO SL11 insulated rail joiners for code 100 rail on my K track.

Hello

As already said by our Canadian friends, SL11 is the right answer for creating insulated sections with K tracks (code 100).

SL111 is for code 75 tracks, which is not the K track design...

Cheers
Fabrice

Hello Harvey,

Please read the Step By Step guide: https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=stepbystep-en

Cheers
Fabrice

Fabrice

Thanks for the link. Seems the instructions in your link are more detailed than the instructions from the wiki then came with the software. In particular, these detailed instructions include ' do not place RocRail in the Program File folder (which I did as that is where all applications are stored). Once I moved, the Demo Work space opened with the view of a track diagram. Interestingly, this sample diagram is different than the one that appears in https://wiki.rocrail.net...ku.php?id=stepbystep-en, which is part of the download of RocRail. Likely not important in understanding but does suggest some disconnect.

Well, onto studying Demo workspace.

Regards
Harvey