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Offline Gregzim  
#1 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:14:20(UTC)
Gregzim

Australia   
Joined: 09/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hi

Does anyone know if the new CS3 track plan now shows locos as the travel along the tracks and if so with their ID displayed?

I currently have Ecos - but with 99% of my locos having FMX decoders - I cant use the railcom bus on Ecos - I am wondering what the track operating visuals are on the CS3/CAN bus?

Regards

Greg
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:51:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,496
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Gregzim Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know if the new CS3 track plan now shows locos as the travel along the tracks and if so with their ID displayed?
The Viessmann Commander can do that. I don't think the CS3 can do it.
It would be possible, but so far Märklin did not announce anything like that.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Gregzim  
#3 Posted : 12 March 2016 12:01:20(UTC)
Gregzim

Australia   
Joined: 09/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hi Thanks for this - this is interesting. Are you saying the Viessmann will track train movement with MFX decoders in them?

Rgds

Greg
Offline MaerklinLife  
#4 Posted : 13 March 2016 13:16:09(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Gregzim Go to Quoted Post
Hi Thanks for this - this is interesting. Are you saying the Viessmann will track train movement with MFX decoders in them?

No. I believe Viessmann uses Railcom, they are definitely not using MFX. To this day, no system allows for tracking of MFX locomotives. Märklin might support this in the future, but as of now they have not announced anything.

Viessmann only supports MFX recognition on the programming track (after update 1.4). They do not have a "true" "MFX experience" so to speak.

If you are planning on using MFX, I would advise you to stick with the Märklin system.

Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 13 March 2016 13:22:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,496
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
To this day, no system allows for tracking of MFX locomotives. Märklin might support this in the future, but as of now they have not announced anything.
Märklin might support that when the RailCom patents expire or when they obtain a patent license. So don't expect that in the near future.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 13 March 2016 15:38:51(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,561
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
To this day, no system allows for tracking of MFX locomotives. Märklin might support this in the future, but as of now they have not announced anything.
Märklin might support that when the RailCom patents expire or when they obtain a patent license. So don't expect that in the near future.



How long does patent expiration take? it used to be something like 30 years I thought, but have a suspicion it is longer now.

So I certainly will not be holding my breath.

Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 13 March 2016 16:56:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,496
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
How long does patent expiration take?
I don't know. Also depends on how long someone pays the patent fees.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 13 March 2016 20:03:31(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,456
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
How long does patent expiration take?
I don't know. Also depends on how long someone pays the patent fees.


FWIW: ref http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/RailCom.html

================================================================
Doesn’t RailCom rely on patented technology?

Absolutely! We have been granted a US patent for much of the RailCom technology and have patent applications in for the remainder. We have donated this technology to the NMRA DCC WG for use in advancing DCC technology. We did this because we believe very strongly in advancing DCC and feel that open technology is the only way to preserve your hobby investment. All NMRA DCC manufacturers will be able to use this technology in their NMRA DCC products free of any licenses.
===============================================================

Peter
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by clapcott
H0MikeR
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 13 March 2016 20:27:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,496
Location: DE-NW
mfx is closed technology and mfx manufacturers cannot use these patents free of any licenses.
There also is a European patent.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 16 March 2016 22:26:45(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,320
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
How long does patent expiration take?
I don't know. Also depends on how long someone pays the patent fees.


FWIW: ref http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/RailCom.html

================================================================
Doesn’t RailCom rely on patented technology?

Absolutely! We have been granted a US patent for much of the RailCom technology and have patent applications in for the remainder. We have donated this technology to the NMRA DCC WG for use in advancing DCC technology. We did this because we believe very strongly in advancing DCC and feel that open technology is the only way to preserve your hobby investment. All NMRA DCC manufacturers will be able to use this technology in their NMRA DCC products free of any licenses.
===============================================================



Well, US patents last for 19 years from the filing of the patent, and then they expire - there is NO renewing for additional extension, you can create a new invention.

Per the US Patent filing the Patent started March 25, 2003, so it would lapse and be in US public domain on March 26, 2022... so 6 years from now approximately.
There are also Lenz patents 6,494,410 (December 17, 2002) - expires Dec 18, 2021, and 6,853,312 (February 8, 2005) - expires Feb 9 2024.

I'm not sure if Europe is different, but I'd expect patents expire there as well.

I'd suspect that Märklin will come up with a solution of its own before it waits another 6-7 years (depending on which patented technologies it needs) as typically one can come up with a design change that can circumvent the particular patented technologies such as with these electronic signaling patents.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline eroncelli  
#11 Posted : 17 March 2016 11:26:08(UTC)
eroncelli

Italy   
Joined: 16/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Bergamo - italy
mfx itself can't report the position of a loco: it's symply impossible.
To report the position of a loco, you need some sort of "position" detector: RFID, IR, Bar-code.
An "indirect" method is used by model train SW based on PC: provided that a certain route has been defined, the system can show the "expected" position of the loco, by means of "feedback" signals (of various type, usually connected on a s-88 bus)
Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 17 March 2016 12:51:45(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,561
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: eroncelli Go to Quoted Post
mfx itself can't report the position of a loco: it's symply impossible.


It is not impossible, it could report that it is in the track connected to the cs, or booster a, or booster b, or booster c ...

However this does give quite coarse location location details.

It would require additional hardware to be able to break the location down into specific sidings or station tracks (say) which may all be fed from one booster. But that hardware would not be hard to organize.

Offline biedmatt  
#13 Posted : 17 March 2016 13:25:26(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
I'd suspect that Märklin will come up with a solution of its own before it waits another 6-7 years (depending on which patented technologies it needs) as typically one can come up with a design change that can circumvent the particular patented technologies such as with these electronic signaling patents.


They probably could if they didn't waste their resources creating software that causes your loko to slow down if you run out of coal or water or diesel or sand. They need to realize we aren't children "playing trains", but adults who want to run a railroad.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline MaerklinLife  
#14 Posted : 17 March 2016 13:39:55(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
They need to realize we aren't children "playing trains", but adults who want to run a railroad.

We? I must be a child then, I find these features fun to "play" with.

Anyway, I would like the feedback on where my locos are, but I do not find the other features childish or anything. It is a matter of personal taste.
Offline biedmatt  
#15 Posted : 17 March 2016 15:54:32(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
The railroads know how much the loko must pull and the rate consumables are used. They do not send equipment out with the "hope" it makes it to its destination. This is why coal tipples had scales and diesel engines have fuel gauges. This software has as much realism as the Sun rising in the west tomorrow. Knowing what equipment is where on their system does matter to the railroad.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Webmaster  
#16 Posted : 17 March 2016 19:12:24(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,165
We all enjoy different aspects of operation, and that is how it should be. Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 17 March 2016 19:15:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,496
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: eroncelli Go to Quoted Post
mfx itself can't report the position of a loco: it's symply impossible.
It's simply possible with a location decoder (to be developed) that reports all locos on its track section to the CS.
Won't be cheap if one needs many location decoders for a big layout.


It would then be possible to assign locos to categories and to define actions for specific categories.
Local trains stop at the platform, express trains pass through the station, freight trains bypass the station. All that with a single location decoder before the station.
ECoS and RailCom allow this today. It can also be done with mfx.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline biedmatt  
#18 Posted : 17 March 2016 21:44:37(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Everyone should operate their trains as they see fit. I am just disappointed M has decided to spend their research Euros on fantasy instead of reality. They need look no further than the mirror to understand why they are perceived as the toy train manufacturer in the Model Railroad community.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Minok  
#19 Posted : 18 March 2016 21:50:12(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,320
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
The railroads know how much the loko must pull and the rate consumables are used. They do not send equipment out with the "hope" it makes it to its destination. This is why coal tipples had scales and diesel engines have fuel gauges. This software has as much realism as the Sun rising in the west tomorrow. Knowing what equipment is where on their system does matter to the railroad.


This is true, but that feature set is optional, isn't it?
A railroad manager is concerned with the positioning of the equipment and meeting schedule, but he relies on someone to make sure the locomotives are properly stocked. Someone must do that - and this aspect of the train simulation introduced by Märklin allows you to pay consequences if you didn't pay enough attention to ensure the train is 'fully tanked up before departing'. Issues happen, and managing the resulting schedule slip and rerouting that occurs from a train stranded and needing to seek emergency supplies can be fun too.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Minok  
#20 Posted : 18 March 2016 21:54:40(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,320
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: eroncelli Go to Quoted Post
mfx itself can't report the position of a loco: it's symply impossible.
It's simply possible with a location decoder (to be developed) that reports all locos on its track section to the CS.
Won't be cheap if one needs many location decoders for a big layout.


It would then be possible to assign locos to categories and to define actions for specific categories.
Local trains stop at the platform, express trains pass through the station, freight trains bypass the station. All that with a single location decoder before the station.
ECoS and RailCom allow this today. It can also be done with mfx.


Could be doable, yes. You would only need something attached to a track so when the loco passes over it, it bursts some data out that is marked with the unique ID of the track embedded component. Then the controller of the layout can hear from the locomotive that it is at that location as a result.

One could also use the Faller Car satelite system type approach to get locations without the need of adding components to the track, but that won't work in the tunnels.

There are options that would be more than the current solution of "something" is just at this location (S88). Just supplementing that with the ID of WHAT is at that location would be good.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Gregzim  
#21 Posted : 19 March 2016 01:33:12(UTC)
Gregzim

Australia   
Joined: 09/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Lots of good points here - you can though just bypass the issue and go to pc/software control and be done with it. In all reality the command stations all try but it will be a long time before they can copy software - just the physical restrictions of the hardware alone makes fast easy access and ease of use difficult. Software like Train Controller is now so advanced - there is no longer any need at all for a command station to be used - but most do still connect through it because we all have one. As someone pointed out in the thread its all a very personal thing for each modeler. I for example am in the hobby for technology complexity options - drawn in when marklin released the first digital system - I love the idea of automation and rarely ever manually operate a train - but that's just me. I love this forum because we are all diverse and bring so much to the table between us all. Rgds Greg
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