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Offline Ian555  
#1 Posted : 23 November 2015 14:33:24(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi all,

Looking for some advice and information, what size and type of cable should I use for connecting my 2 main lines with, each line has a total length of 52m and I'm using K track.

My idea is to run a live and earth around the layout and drop feeder lines from the K track to it every 2 to 2.5m

Each main line will have up to 8 trains running continuously using a CS2 and 60061 switched power pack.

So, back to the cable, single or multi core and 1mm or 2mm????, or what do you suggest.

Thanks for your help.

Ian.

Offline michelvr  
#2 Posted : 23 November 2015 15:38:35(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

Looking for some advice and information, what size and type of cable should I use for connecting my 2 main lines with, each line has a total length of 52m and I'm using K track.

My idea is to run a live and earth around the layout and drop feeder lines from the K track to it every 2 to 2.5m

Each main line will have up to 8 trains running continuously using a CS2 and 60061 switched power pack.

So, back to the cable, single or multi core and 1mm or 2mm????, or what do you suggest.

Thanks for your help.

Ian.



Hello Iam,

Like you I have a large layout, presently over 100 pieces of flex track. You will need to use boosters! My two main lines are separately wired to their own booster so that if there is a short I will still have the other trains running on the other line.

Stranded or multi core wire is what I used and is recommended for DCC transmission, less crosstalk or bad feedback. I am not familiar with the metric equivalents, I will let you know that I have used 14 AWG for the bus and 18 AWG for the feeders. I have feeders soldered to every other piece of flex track, so for every six feet. This is very important so that you do not get a voltage drop. Please find a link below for metric conversion.

http://www.engineeringto...wg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

If you would like to send me a PM and we can swap email addresses and then I can send you a slew of pictures of what I have done with my Marklin K track layout. Some times pictures are easier to understand. I had quite a big learning curve to get to where I am and I would like to share my knowledge!

Regards,

Michel
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Offline Ian555  
#3 Posted : 23 November 2015 17:53:29(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Michel,

Thanks, PM, tomorrow morning.

All the best.

Ian.
Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 23 November 2015 18:28:49(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Hello Ian!
Generally do i recommend 0,75 mm copper wire.
It´s enough for the digital system at 5 amps.
With the main line and other tracks,i recommend CS2 while turnouts motor and the signals can been use with an booster.
There is an limit how many trains you can use if you have 5 amps power out to the tracks.
Also depends how many wagons you have with the lighting.
7-8 train set without the lighting at 5 amps.
4-5 train set with the lighting at 5 amps.
If you want more trains to drive with,i recommend another more booster and divided up section on the layout.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 23 November 2015 18:37:29(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
When i install the wires on the layout,i use 0,75 mm to hook up with the clamp connection.
I make sure do that in every 2 metres.
On the track i solder on the rail splice with 0,50 mm and connect to the closest clamp connection.
Same with the stud contact.
Just divided up connection every where on the layout.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Ian555  
#6 Posted : 23 November 2015 20:05:52(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Anders,

Thanks for the info.

Ian.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 23 November 2015 23:01:50(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

Looking for some advice and information, what size and type of cable should I use for connecting my 2 main lines with, each line has a total length of 52m and I'm using K track.

My idea is to run a live and earth around the layout and drop feeder lines from the K track to it every 2 to 2.5m

Each main line will have up to 8 trains running continuously using a CS2 and 60061 switched power pack.

So, back to the cable, single or multi core and 1mm or 2mm????, or what do you suggest.

Thanks for your help.

Ian.



Hi Ian
I would suggest you get a reel of 1.5mm mains cable, or 2.5mm if you want heavier wire. I suspect this would be the cheapest cable to buy.

If you are going to run them all from one cs2 you will need to have a booster per track. Apparently TAMS boosters can be used for mfx, Nigel may have some info on this. I know he has TAMS boosters, and was interested in how the Hans Pieter Porsche guys were using them with mfx.


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Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 24 November 2015 09:23:19(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
An notice about 5 amps:
This heavy load are more for the bigger scale trains.
I recommended 2,5-3 amps or 60 VA to feed H0 scale and it´s enough with 0,75 mm copper wire.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 24 November 2015 10:08:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
There is a big difference between "0.75 mm" and "0.75 mm²". It seems that many users write "mm" where they actually mean "mm²".

0.5 mm² is the minimum to prevent the cable from overheating if you are using the 100 VA power supply.
With 0.75 mm² or 1.5 mm² the voltage drop will be reduced and this can make a difference for large layouts with long wires.
Tip: it is easy to obtain speaker cables with 1.5 mm². They usually come in pairs and one side is marked. They are not red and brown, but you can use the marked side for "red".

0.14 mm² is enough for 2 A (e.g. MS2) to prevent cable overheating, but I would not use such small wires for track connections.

Safety warning: if you are using boosters with 3 A and a train derails bridging two booster circuits then you have a total of 6 A that can do harm if the short circuit is not detected.
If you only have one booster circuit with 5 A, the danger is almost the same.
When using two boosters with 5 A each, then a bridge between two booster circuits can unleash a total of 10 A.

IMHO a single 5 A booster might be easier to handle (even for H0) than a couple of 3 A boosters.


3 A might be enough to run 8 trains at a moderate speed - unless there are many coaches with light bulbs. Prepare the layout with insulations so you can have at least two booster circuits, but connect all booster circuit to the CS2 in the beginning to see how far you can go. The CS2 can show the current load.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ian555  
#10 Posted : 24 November 2015 10:14:01(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom,

The cable that Marklin sell, what size is that???

Ian.

Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 24 November 2015 10:34:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Märklin give no specification for the 710x cables in the product database, but maybe this information is provided with the item. The 71060 cable set is specified as 0.75 mm².
Older cables may be thinner than that.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ian555  
#12 Posted : 24 November 2015 11:11:32(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom,

Thanks, a little more information on my layout...

Electrically it is split into 4 seperate sections, they are/will be controlled by 1..2 CS2's, 2..1CS2,..and a MS2 at each of the other 2 sections, they all use a 60061 switched power pack each ( 5 in total ).

Mechanically, the layout is split into 17 different routes/circles, non of which are connected together, at the moment 15 are running, so I run 15 trains all on their own track.

It's just the 4 main outer lines that are still to be connected + 1 other circle.

Those outer lines are in 2 seperate circles, 2 lines are passenger and 2 lines goods traffic, each seperate circle will have it's own CS2 and 60va power supply.

The layout is for full manual control, and with 4 seperate "control stations", 1 at each corner of the layout, 4 operators can control sections of the layout with 4 or 5 trains running on each.

So, although there could be 20+ trains running all at the one time, this is electrically split into sections that the CS2's and MS2's can handle.

Hope this gives some insight to my plans for the layout.

Ian.
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 24 November 2015 11:37:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Ian,

The limiting factor is the number of trains run by a single CS2. Not sure if the maximum is 2 or 4 with your plans, but that shouldn't be a problem for a CS2 with 60 VA power supply.

The track is 52 m long. The distance between the CS2 and the most remote feeder wire will rather be about 15 m or so. 0.75 mm² should do. Using 1.5 mm² (e.g. speaker cable) won't harm.

You can always make the screwdriver test: make a short circuit with a screwdriver anywhere on the layout - and even at the remotest spot this should set the CS2 to STOP immediately.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ian555  
#14 Posted : 24 November 2015 11:59:41(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom,

When I said 52m long that is travelling round both of the circles, so each circle is approx 26m long, so the furthest track point from the power supply ( positioned at a corner of the layout ) would be say 12m.

On a 26m circle, I should be able to run 3 or even 4 trains ( at playing catch up..Smile .) on each circle, so with 2 circle per section that could be up to 8 trains on the CS2 + 60va power supply.

8 trains running would be a max. on each section and would not happen very often...Smile

So, I could use say 1.5mm2 to 2mm2 ( don't know how to make the small 2 ) cable to run right round and then .75mm2 for connection to the track???

Ian.
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 24 November 2015 13:32:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
So, I could use say 1.5mm² to 2mm² cable to run right round and then .75mm² for connection to the track?
IMHO that would be on the safe side.
0.75 mm² all the way probably wouldn't make much difference and will most likely also be safe.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Ian555  
#16 Posted : 24 November 2015 14:11:34(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom,

Thanks, will look into what cable size's are available.

Ian.

Online Purellum  
#17 Posted : 24 November 2015 14:54:54(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I've always thought that copper wire was invented by the Scots. LOL

I think you should look for 1,5 sq mm solid strand wire, the type used in house installations. ( As main bus )

Easy to route and solder. From main bus to tracks, either 0,5 sq mm or 0,75 sq mm.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline michelvr  
#18 Posted : 24 November 2015 17:58:34(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Hi Ian,

I sent you an email. My layout is wired for computer control which I now know will be different from yours as your posts state. I still hope it will help you!

All the best, Michel
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#19 Posted : 27 November 2015 04:53:45(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Ian,

big wire is better.

Now since you will be running a LOT of wire, the thing to do is go and see what hefty wire is available in large spools so that you get economy of scale. Here ins the USA we can buy 500' rolls for household wiring in various colours. You will want red and brown.

I run the wires around under the track and pull them tight.
Then every 2m or so, (well 180cm really, since 2205 tracks are 90cm each) I drop down a 22 or 24 AWG wire that is soldered onto the rail to the bus wires and connect them with a tap and run pigtail connector.
See http://layout.mixmox.com...ringandpigtailconnectors

Don't skimp on the gauge of the wire. Don't run un-insulated bus wires.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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