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Offline kimballthurlow  
#1 Posted : 24 June 2015 11:26:35(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,276
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,

When I first viewed models of some of the early German electric locomotives, and indeed of the French 2D2, I could not understand what was meant by the quill drive. The quill drive allied with the oft-quoted “most powerful…“ got me really intrigued. So I just had to research them, and in so doing, I got to appreciate the technology that brought these locomotives to the attention of the model builders. Being a Pennsylvania Railroad fan, I realised that the same drive system was used for their GG1, which is also modelled by Marklin. I have written a complete review of the real engines here (PDF) http://www.qldrail.net/altkloster/e 19 review.pdf, including notes on the quill drive and dynamic braking, if you wish to download it
Anyway, for this treatise, I would like to review the E19 model built by Marklin in various forms since the 1990s. But first I have some information on the prototypes, which used the standard German Railways AC supply current of 15,000 V at a special frequency of 16 2/3 Hz.

The Four Prototype E19

The E 19 was the last German electric express train locomotive developed before the Second World War, using as a basis the successful E18. The idea was to build suitable motive power for the Münschen - Berlin electrified express trains. The locomotive was specified for a top speed of 180 km / h and a weight of 110.7 tonnes, with the option for an extended top speed of 225 km / h.
The ruling gradient on this stretch of line was the Frankenwald ramp, and the E 19 was designed to handle this task from the beginning. The specifications required the transport of 360 tonnes on the 13 km long ramp between Probstzella and Rothenkirchen without a helper locomotive.
4 locomotives were ordered by the DRG for testing purposes, the first two in 1938 were built by AEG (subclass E 19.0), and were a modernized version of the E 18. From an aesthetic view, the enclosure panels on the E 19.0 were welded instead of riveted. These engines entered service as E19 01 and E19 02.
The second two by Siemens/Henschel (subclass E 19.1) in 1940, (the units modelled by Marklin), were of a more conventional riveted construction, but had a modern dynamic brake (banks of resistors to create back-emf, to waste current, and to dissipate heat from the motors acting as generators, when no electricity is supplied) housed in a distinctive humped roof structure. This made the E 19.1 strikingly different in appearance to the E 18 and E 19.0.

Marklin Models of E 19

I believe the earliest model produced by Marklin was 3769, in the original DRG wine red express engine colour, as represented by the example preserved in the Nuremburg Transportation Museum. This was in 1994.
Two of the more recent models, the 37691 and the 39190, are described here.
These models have the same body casting, and detail additions such as steps, handrails, and roof-top cabling. While the body is in die-cast metal, the added on detail is flexible plastic.
The wheels sets, motor and electronics are all contained on a main chassis cast in metal, with the upper body retained by a single screw which is accessed from underneath the chassis. In the same location, there is a switch to obtain current from the overhead pantograph(s) if desired. The models will run in either of 3 modes, Marklin analogue, Delta or digital. A Delta model 34691 was also available at time of production of 37691.

The clear plastic side windows of the engine are moulded in such a way, that interior detail relating to the transformer or switching gear is modelled and visible. Some of the cab detail is visible at both ends, with the front windows finely modelled. 3 headlights are lit at each end, from one small bulb (replacement Part# 61 0080).
The real engine has 4 driven axles in a fixed frame, with a leading single axle pony truck at both ends, giving the wheel notation 1Do1. In the Marklin model, each set of 2 driven axles is mounted in a wheeled metal frame which swivels like a bogie, to negotiate model curves. The driving wheel spokes show the detail of the quill drive cups inside the outer rim, each retained by 2 large springs.
The model is driven through flat gears by a motor integrally mounted in one set of the bogie-like frames, with two driving axles. Each of the 4 driving wheels has a rubber traction tire. The digital control electronics are at the opposite end of the chassis to the motor, under which are the set of 4 driverless wheels. The side frames of the locomotive (with brake rigging, axle bearings, and pneumatic controllers) are relief moulded in flexible plastic.
Here is a photo of the flat gear drive train.

Motor bogie for 37691/39190 with geared wheels and traction tires. Both ground and current are picked up on the other bogie.
UserPostedImage


Unlike some of my other Marklin models that have a similar gear train, both of these models are really quiet. It is recommended to lightly lubricate (one drop) on each of the axles and the gear set, after 40 hours of operation.


37691 produced in 1997 – E 19.12.

The 37691 model (E 19 12) is painted in the cobalt blue, which was applied in the early 1950s. It has a large flat commutator motor with replaceable brushes Part #60 1460 (see photo below). The model drives very smoothly, with small steps on the Central Station controller. The electronics board includes two screw pots. With the first you can adjust the acceleration and braking delay timing, and with the second, set the maximum speed. One set of DIP switches can be used to reset the operation for analogue or Delta, or to reset the address for digital operation, When delivered new it is set to Address 19 for digital operation, and the function of lights on or off can be controlled (adheres to direction of travel). I believe you can replace the electronics board with an MFX 60947 full sound decoder.

UserPostedImage


39190 produced in 2002-2004 – E 19.11.

The 39190 model (E 19 11) is painted in the green typical of German coaching stock of the 1950s. This model was produced with what is called a C sine motor. This appears to my eye to be a flat can motor, and the Marklin user manual describes it as “brushless, needs no servicing”, but on which the gear shafts can be lubricated. (See photo below). I guess it has a degree of software control from the electronics. The electronics board on this locomotive, automatically recognizes your mode of operation, whether analogue, Delta or digital. As delivered, the digital address is set to 19 at the factory. The model drives very smoothly, with small steps on the Central Station controller. On the electronics board, DIP switches can be used to reset the address for digital operation, and there are two screw pots. With the first you can adjust the acceleration and braking delay timing, and with the second, set the maximum speed. From the digital controller you can control the function of headlights on or off (adhere to direction of travel), and also turn off any acceleration/deceleration range that has been set (to allow for switching). If you wish to modernize the decoder, you may have to follow Tom and Matt's advice following in this topic, or check with Marklin for a suitable replacement.

The motor bogie for 39190.
UserPostedImage


Parts Available for 37691 and 39190

replacement motor brushes (37691 only) Part #60 1460
small bulb (Part# 61 0080 for digital, or 61 0040 for analogue or Delta mode)
lubricating oil Part# 7149
pickup shoe Part# 7164
pantograph Part# 649 820
traction tire Part# 7152

Photo below shows E19 12 leaving the electric engine stable for its next turn of duty.

http://www.qldrail.net/altkloster/37691-1000.jpg


Acknowledgments

I have borrowed from a beautiful article about the E18/E19 in Italian, on marklinfan.com
Possible source for more information would be the Railway Journal Special Edition IV / 92 (in German).

Edited by user 25 June 2015 00:48:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge.
thanks 19 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 24 June 2015 11:37:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,795
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Two beautiful models, Kimball! ThumpUp

I have a 3768 Br118 (E18) but I would love to also have the E19 in my collection.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 24 June 2015 12:22:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Thanks for the review.
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
I believe the earliest model produced by Marklin was 3769, in the original DRG wine red express engine colour.
This is not the original DRG livery, it represents the museum loco of era IV. The museum loco didn't show the correct DRG livery (sand boxes should be black, not red, front skirts should also be black).

Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
39190 produced in 2002-2004 – E 19.11.

[...]I believe you can replace the electronics board with an MFX 60947 full sound decoder.
AFAIK only if you also replace the motor with the standard 60942 type (which may require a new truck).

The Federtopf-Antrieb of E 18/E 19 is a special form of the quill drive. You find quill drive with E 18/E 19, 110, and Taurus. But the post-war locomotives do not have the large wheels with the Federtöpfe (whatever that may be in English).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline foumaro  
#4 Posted : 24 June 2015 12:26:26(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,374
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Very nice topic,i have the 37691,a great locomotive,i am running her with the 42281 set.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
Offline biedmatt  
#5 Posted : 24 June 2015 13:33:32(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
39190 produced in 2002-2004 – E 19.11.

[...]I believe you can replace the electronics board with an MFX 60947 full sound decoder.
AFAIK only if you also replace the motor with the standard 60942 type (which may require a new truck).


The FX decoder and sinus drive electronics for 39190 are all included on the same circuit board. You can't change one without changing the other.

I ordered a re-motor kit from SB-Modellbau for the 39190 a couple weeks ago. I hate to loose the sinus drive, but I like RailCom+ and Lenz's ABC format better. The old FX decoders are looking ancient compared to today's decoders. I will also add sound. SB's kit for the sinus drive loko is suppose to be a straight bolt in, "Schwierig-keitsgrad=1".

http://www.sb-modellbau....908&cPath=256_27_137

http://www.sb-modellbau....shop_content.php?coID=13

http://tonystrains.com/l...symmetrical-dcc-and-abc/

Edited by user 25 June 2015 15:11:36(UTC)  | Reason: Clarity, added link explaining Lenz asymmetric AC decoder control

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#6 Posted : 25 June 2015 00:44:35(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,276
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
39190 produced in 2002-2004 – E 19.11.

[...]I believe you can replace the electronics board with an MFX 60947 full sound decoder.
AFAIK only if you also replace the motor with the standard 60942 type (which may require a new truck).


The FX decoder and sinus drive electronics for 39190 are all included on the same circuit board. You can't change one without changing the other.

I ordered a re-motor kit from SB-Modellbau for the 39190 a couple weeks ago. I hate to loose the sinus drive, but I like RailCom+ and Lenz's ABC format better. The old FX decoders are looking ancient compared to today's decoders. I will also add sound. SB's kit for the sinus drive loko is suppose to be a straight bolt in, "Schwierig-keitsgrad=1".

http://www.sb-modellbau....908&cPath=256_27_137

http://www.sb-modellbau....shop_content.php?coID=13


Hi to all,
Thanks for the comments.

Hi to both Tom and Matt,
Thanks for the advice.
I was not sure about this, and I thank you both for your input.
I have modified the review so that readers can check your posts within the topic.
I did not check with Marklin, but will do so in the near future.

Tom, the German federtopf-antrieb?
I see this as usually translated to "spring cup-final drive", which makes sense in English. The spring cups inside the wheel spokes engaged with the quills (protrusions) of the drive shaft (which I see as a coronet). The German system on the E18 was developed by AEG, and was often known as the Kleinow drive.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline applor  
#7 Posted : 14 October 2015 12:35:32(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,528
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Very nice topic,i have the 37691,a great locomotive,i am running her with the 42281 set.


As do I! I also just managed to get the close bar couplers for the gluckauf set so they run buffer to buffer like the Rheingold equivalent:D

I only model 3a so this topic is spot on for me:)
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline foumaro  
#8 Posted : 14 October 2015 14:09:02(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,374
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Very nice topic,i have the 37691,a great locomotive,i am running her with the 42281 set.


As do I! I also just managed to get the close bar couplers for the gluckauf set so they run buffer to buffer like the Rheingold equivalent:D

I only model 3a so this topic is spot on for me:)[/quote

It is a little difficult to remove them and put them back on the cars.If the cars are allways on the layout,OK there is no problem,it is the better sollution.ThumpUp
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#9 Posted : 14 October 2015 14:34:42(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello,
thanks for the review! I like this loco, too.

Accidentially I took notice of a development of a new Sinus driver board for the C-Sinus and SDS drives. I contacted the developers and got a beta example. The E19 11 (39190) is my test loco for this driver board, which enables me to equip the loco with a modern DCC sound decoder. Because the BLDC driver board is equipped with a mtc21 connector for standard decoder like mSD, mLD or Esu LokPilot, LokSound and other available mtc21 decoder.

Here are some examples of the conversion and some demo videos:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

First test with mSD and off course Diesel sound!

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

The BLDC board is ready to connect buffer capacitors directly:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Sample video with Vmin = 0,5km/h:


(1,15km/h)

This picture shows the E19 with small speaker and capacitor (1.000µF, 35V) below the roof.

UserPostedImage

New Video with Diesel sound

thanks 5 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 14 October 2015 23:49:43(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,276
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Moritz,
Thanks for that interesting project.
I wonder if this decoder will be marketed soon?

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#11 Posted : 15 October 2015 09:01:17(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if this decoder will be marketed soon?

Hello Kimball,
Actually, the developers started to set up a complete redesign with a new controller type. Therefore, the next beta release will take a few weeks. As it is a provate project, there may be the possibility to order a specific number of pieces, when the final tests are executed successfully.

I assume, maybe next year. I will report again, when there are news available.

Moritz
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Offline Shamu  
#12 Posted : 15 October 2015 12:47:40(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Excellent Moritz, add me to the list as well. ThumpUp

I've been racking my brains for nearly a year trying to figure out how to get a sound decoder into my 39160 BR42.90 and this wonderful board will solve all my problems (and my fears of driver boards dieing in my C-sine/SDS loks)......... assuming it doesn't cost the earth or the equivalent of a newer version of the lok.

Will be waiting to hear more about it.

Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline applor  
#13 Posted : 15 October 2015 13:35:29(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,528
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I have the 39161 and would also be interested in adding sound.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 15 October 2015 15:23:17(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,815
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Excellent Moritz, add me to the list as well. ThumpUp

I've been racking my brains for nearly a year trying to figure out how to get a sound decoder into my 39160 BR42.90 and this wonderful board will solve all my problems (and my fears of driver boards dieing in my C-sine/SDS loks)......... assuming it doesn't cost the earth or the equivalent of a newer version of the lok.

Will be waiting to hear more about it.

Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention.


Of course you could also buy a 39160.001 with mfx and sound.

Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 15 October 2015 17:36:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
That new 39160.001 does not have the C Sine motor.

A driver board that allows using C Sine motors with modern decoders (NEM 660 or such) will be needed when one of my C Sine/SDS locos suffers a damage of the motor driver - separate board with mfx decoders, integrated with mouse piano fx decoders.


@Moritz: can you say something about the speed characteristics of your new driver board?
The Märklin boards do not have linear characteristics and at 50% throttle the speed is significantly below 50% - I'd prefer a linear speed curve.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#16 Posted : 16 October 2015 08:21:22(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
@Moritz: can you say something about the speed characteristics of your new driver board?
The Märklin boards do not have linear characteristics and at 50% throttle the speed is significantly below 50% - I'd prefer a linear speed curve.

Hello Tom,
the driver board is high configurable by SUSI CVs. Furthermore, the speed curve of the used decoder has an impact to the speed characteristics. The maximum speed and middle speed can be set by the SUSI CVs. There are some other CVs, which have influence to the driving and speed characteristics, too.

In result, You can configure the speed characteristics as You want. My prefered setting is to set the decoder speed table to a nearly linear curve with a bit more flat progression in the beginning to receive a smooth start.

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
H0xxupShamu
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#17 Posted : 16 October 2015 09:09:13(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
PS: I forgot to tell: You may know, that many C-Sinus locos are not as fast as common Märklin locos. This is caused by the Märklin driver board, not because of the C-Sinus itself.

With this new Sinus-driver board, You can set the maximum speed to an higher value - much higher! As I don't really know the physical limitations of the C-Sinus drive, I would not go to far, but e.g. for the E19 a maximum speed of 180km/h as the model reached is no problem!

You should check the power consumption of Your model, when driving on high speed!
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H0
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 16 October 2015 09:22:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
I think for a Bundesbahn E 19 the prototypical speed is just 140 km/h. My E 19 is fast enough with the original driver.

Anyway, there are some advantages with the new board:
  • Free choice of decoder
  • AUX 4 no longer reserved for the motor driver (mfx versions)
  • Higher maximum speed
  • Longer acceleration/braking delay than you can get with the original fx decoder
  • Adjustable speed curve

Did I miss something?

While I am sufficiently happy with the original boards, it's good to know there is an alternative - if I should ever want DCC or sound or if a loco board should fail.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#19 Posted : 16 October 2015 09:29:49(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I think for a Bundesbahn E 19 the prototypical speed is just 140 km/h. My E 19 is fast enough with the original driver.

Anyway, there are some advantages with the new board:
  • Free choice of decoder
  • AUX 4 no longer reserved for the motor driver (mfx versions)
  • Higher maximum speed
  • Longer acceleration/braking delay than you can get with the original fx decoder
  • Adjustable speed curve

Did I miss something?

While I am sufficiently happy with the original boards, it's good to know there is an alternative - if I should ever want DCC or sound or if a loco board should fail.


Yes, I think, that's it!
Maybe to make more clear:
Free choice of decoder includes free choice of digital protocoll (DCC, DCC with RailCom , Sx, mfx, MM2) and number of AUX ports. And additionally better slow driving characteristics and free choice of breaking distance, too!
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Offline Alberto Pedrini  
#20 Posted : 13 December 2015 19:17:48(UTC)
Alberto Pedrini

Italy   
Joined: 02/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,447
Location: Italy
Hello Moritz,
this driver board work also with the bad c-sinus compact?
I have an E18 39680 and some other models to upgrade.
Alberto

Marklinfan Club Italia
www.marklinfan.net
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