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Offline arjkmbc  
#1 Posted : 28 February 2015 20:20:33(UTC)
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arjkmbc

United States   
Joined: 28/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 0
Location: Wayne, PA
Hello, Im sorry to inform you that the items that this post is based on are not for sale. I just bought some passenger cars and am trying to tell if they go together or not. The numbers are 4023, 4024, 4027, 4029, 4035, and 4044, Im sorry that I don't have any pictures posted, I have pictures of the cars, but cant figure out how to post them.
-arjkmbc
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 28 February 2015 23:23:32(UTC)
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kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
The Marklin catalogue for 1967 shows the 4023 through 4029 and the 1970 catalogue shows 4044 (with tail lights).
These coaches go well together for the period representing 1956 onward.
(The real 4029 was made in 1958)

I am not familiar with the 4035.

regards
kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 28 February 2015 23:34:13(UTC)
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RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,870
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
4035 was a Swiss restaurant car. Perhaps this coach does not go so well with your other ones.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline grnwtrs  
#4 Posted : 11 April 2015 05:38:56(UTC)
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grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
How about a good engine (ep3) for the Loreley car sets.(Ma 43209 & 43219.

Maybe a 39008?

I always wanted these cars, then when I get them, I don't know what to run with them

Thank you in advance

Best Regards,

gene
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 11 April 2015 08:10:58(UTC)
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kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Gene,

Your era III Loreley coaches are suited for the train which ran between Hook of Holland and Switzerland, via Germany from 1952.
The coaches have DEUTSCHE BUNDESBAHN in full lettering, which style was used exclusively for international trains.

I personally would use the cars with any steam engine (such as BR 03, BR 01, BR 18, BR 23, BR 39). If you pretend it was post-1956, use a V200.
And why not a Dutch (NS) engine if you have one - an era III electric?
I personally would even use an E18, E19 or E44, even though I do not know if the train ran under electric catenary in Germany.

The Loreley express was one of the blue F-train network in the young Reisezugdienst Bundesbahn. These trains travelled at 100 or 120 km / h.
Text following by Michael Meinhold from Miba:
"For fifteen years this train operated under the F train number 163/164 between Basel and Hoek van Holland. The "Loreley Express", next to the "Rheingold", "Rheinpfeil" and the legendary Rhine Arrow, were together the most popular F trains of the 3rd era. As a daily combination of (England) Holland to Switzerland via West Germany, they were very popular, especially with English travellers, for whom partly, the train name was conjured.
The Deutsche Bundesbahn (announced 17.5.1953) christened the F 164/163 as the "Loreley Express" - a suggestion from the Dutch railway executive, as well as numerous DB proposals from a competition of 1952 "trains looking for a name".

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 12 April 2015 00:22:12(UTC)  | Reason: improved the sense of the opening lines

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 11 April 2015 12:59:18(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,481
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
How about a good engine (ep3) for the Loreley car sets.(Ma 43209 & 43219.

Maybe a 39008?

I always wanted these cars, then when I get them, I don't know what to run with them

Thank you in advance

Best Regards,

gene



IIRC when these were originally issued the loco recommended was a V200 that was issued at the same time. They were issued about 1995 or 1996, but may have been a year or two earlier, and I don't have the catalogues handy to check.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 11 April 2015 14:24:40(UTC)
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Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,853
Location: Hybrid Home
There used to be two 4044 tin plate baggage car models:

1964-1967 as a green baggage car with tail lights nr. 112401 to Köln (Cologne)
1991-1992 as a beige - turqouise baggage car nr. 50 80 92-43 505-8 to Hamburg-Altona
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current "layout": https://www.marklin-user...aigne-Project#post592818
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 11 April 2015 14:59:09(UTC)
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Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,853
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: arjkmbc Go to Quoted Post
I have pictures of the cars, but cant figure out how to post them.

Easiest way: After finishing your post click on "attach". From there you can upload pictures from your PC. Supported formats are inter alia JPG and PNG. Make sure that picture size is below 500 KB.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
exa.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current "layout": https://www.marklin-user...aigne-Project#post592818
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 11 April 2015 15:09:18(UTC)
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Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,853
Location: Hybrid Home
The tin plate coaches of arjkmbc are modelled after the Deutsche Bundesbahn "UIC-X-Wagen" which were used as of 1952. Before the 1960s UIC classification they were known as "üm-Wagen" or "m-Wagen". See attached relevant Deutsche Bundesbahn train diagram with locos (a mix of steam, diesel and electric locos) for the "Loreley" example in 1958.

Source: http://www.db58.de/wp-co...ey-Zugbildung-Skizze.png
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
F164-163-Loreley-Zugbildung-Skizze.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current "layout": https://www.marklin-user...aigne-Project#post592818
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 11 April 2015 20:55:58(UTC)
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Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,853
Location: Hybrid Home
For the pre-"UIC-X-Wagen" period, here here the "Loreley" composition of summer 1956, for both DB and NS, complete with Maerklin article numbers (in bold).

Source: http://www.thundernet.or.jp/~PwM/ZB/F163_56.html
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
le.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current "layout": https://www.marklin-user...aigne-Project#post592818
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#11 Posted : 11 April 2015 22:35:26(UTC)
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Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: arjkmbc Go to Quoted Post
Hello, Im sorry to inform you that the items that this post is based on are not for sale. I just bought some passenger cars and am trying to tell if they go together or not. The numbers are 4023, 4024, 4027, 4029, 4035, and 4044, Im sorry that I don't have any pictures posted, I have pictures of the cars, but cant figure out how to post them.
-arjkmbc


Excellant question, i have simlar carriages. Did not realise it can be such a challenge to make up a train.

Kind regards

Ken
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#12 Posted : 11 April 2015 22:38:05(UTC)
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Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: arjkmbc Go to Quoted Post
I have pictures of the cars, but cant figure out how to post them.

Easiest way: After finishing your post click on "attach". From there you can upload pictures from your PC. Supported formats are inter alia JPG and PNG. Make sure that picture size is below 500 KB.


Thankyou Alsterstreek, i have been struggling with photos too. Regards Ken.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 12 April 2015 09:57:44(UTC)
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Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,853
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
The tin plate coaches of arjkmbc are modelled after the Deutsche Bundesbahn "UIC-X-Wagen" which were used as of 1952. Before the 1960s UIC classification they were known as "üm-Wagen" or "m-Wagen"...

During my research I stumbled over this related 1961 photo.

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Loreley-Express.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current "layout": https://www.marklin-user...aigne-Project#post592818
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Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 12 April 2015 23:37:33(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,234
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
The tin plate coaches of arjkmbc are modelled after the Deutsche Bundesbahn "UIC-X-Wagen" which were used as of 1952. Before the 1960s UIC classification they were known as "üm-Wagen" or "m-Wagen". See attached relevant Deutsche Bundesbahn train diagram with locos (a mix of steam, diesel and electric locos) for the "Loreley" example in 1958.

Source: http://www.db58.de/wp-co...ey-Zugbildung-Skizze.png


I had never heard them referred to as "üm-Wagen" or "m-Wagen" but as D-Zug Wagen.
The designation for the coach was a coded description for that coach. (e.g. B4üm-53)
A for first class, AB for mixed first/second, B for second class, C for third class (before 1957). The digit 4 indicated that the coach had 4 axles, the letter ü indicated that the coach was equipped with a gangway (Uebergang) and m indicated that the coach length was 26.4m (metres).

The DB designated them by the year of their introduction, so the coaches were described as Gruppe 53, Gruppe 61 and Gruppe 63. Gruppe 53 were the 26.4m long coaches with 4 axles and hinged doors that later was internationally designated as UIC-X (See Aüm202). Gruppe 61 was a later modified variant of the same coach design but with reinforced frame. The design of the doors and gangway doors were also modified. (See Aüm203). Gruppe 62 were the modified coaches with air-conditioning that were introduced for the TEE Rheingold in 1961 and later for TEE service starting in 1965 (See Avüm111).

The Maerklin tin plate DB coaches (4022/23/24/26/27/32/51/52/53/54) belong to Gruppe 53. The TEE coaches (4055/56/57/58/59/85/86/87/88/89/90) belong to Gruppe 63. Maerklin did not make any Gruppe 61 coaches until 1972, when they introduced the first 1/100 (27cm) Am203 and Bm234 models.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#15 Posted : 12 April 2015 23:43:00(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,234
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
4035 was a Swiss restaurant car. Perhaps this coach does not go so well with your other ones.


I actually have a photo of a train with a consist like this in a book called "Die Gotthardbahn" by Marti and Trueb (Orell Fussli 1969). The photo shows a German international train with Swiss diner entering Zurich Station. The train likely was travelling between Stuttgart and Italy or back via the Gotthard and had a Swiss diner and a few SBB coaches added for the run through Switzerland.

Similar situations also occurred with trains travelling between Basel and Italy via Olten and Luzern and with trains travelling from Munich to Zurich via Lindau.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline grnwtrs  
#16 Posted : 13 April 2015 01:41:07(UTC)
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grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Gene,

Your era III Loreley coaches are suited for the train which ran between Hook of Holland and Switzerland, via Germany from 1952.
The coaches have DEUTSCHE BUNDESBAHN in full lettering, which style was used exclusively for international trains.

I personally would use the cars with any steam engine (such as BR 03, BR 01, BR 18, BR 23, BR 39). If you pretend it was post-1956, use a V200.
And why not a Dutch (NS) engine if you have one - an era III electric?
I personally would even use an E18, E19 or E44, even though I do not know if the train ran under electric catenary in Germany.

The Loreley express was one of the blue F-train network in the young Reisezugdienst Bundesbahn. These trains travelled at 100 or 120 km / h.
Text following by Michael Meinhold from Miba:
"For fifteen years this train operated under the F train number 163/164 between Basel and Hoek van Holland. The "Loreley Express", next to the "Rheingold", "Rheinpfeil" and the legendary Rhine Arrow, were together the most popular F trains of the 3rd era. As a daily combination of (England) Holland to Switzerland via West Germany, they were very popular, especially with English travellers, for whom partly, the train name was conjured.
The Deutsche Bundesbahn (announced 17.5.1953) christened the F 164/163 as the "Loreley Express" - a suggestion from the Dutch railway executive, as well as numerous DB proposals from a competition of 1952 "trains looking for a name".

regards
Kimball


Kimball:

Thank you for such thorough information in such a timely manner. I guess you have known this
train stuff for such a long time. Your posts are filled with so much information, that guys like me have to
print it out to accompany our sets. That is to protect form forgetting this priceless information.

I originally wanted the sets, because of the legend surrounding that part of the Rhine, and then from
having a brief trip thru the area. Then when I wanted to get the sets, they were all sold out.

I will have to go thru my engines to see what would more closely match the parameters you laid out.
I have at least 2 of each of the steam loks you listed, and thankfully I have a 3021 if I need to run analogue. BigGrin . If need be I can use one of the V-200's (37805) I acquired a couple of years age.

I had been saving them for a "blue" train set that was supposed to be delivered last year, then the set
was supposed to be delivered the 1st qtr. of this year. Still no word.Glare

Thanks again for you priceless information and insight.

Regards.

gene
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#17 Posted : 13 April 2015 05:51:40(UTC)
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kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Gene,
Thanks for the complement.
I notice from Alsterstreeks reply too, that an E10 could be used after 1956.

I too have the Loreley sets, I prefer it to the Rheingold set with the same cars but different lettering (43237/8...?).
So I sold all my Rheingold sets, including the red/cream ones (42290/1....).

I have the Blue Enzian set too, but the earlier one (42610).
Really nice set, you will like the new one.
Do you like the 37805 V200?
I have one, it is 39800 produced in 2007.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline MikeR  
#18 Posted : 14 April 2015 21:05:45(UTC)
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MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: arjkmbc Go to Quoted Post
I have pictures of the cars, but cant figure out how to post them.

Easiest way: After finishing your post click on "attach". From there you can upload pictures from your PC. Supported formats are inter alia JPG and PNG. Make sure that picture size is below 500 KB.


Thankyou Alsterstreek, i have been struggling with photos too. Regards Ken.


Me too . Thanks
Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
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Offline grnwtrs  
#19 Posted : 15 April 2015 00:04:06(UTC)
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grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Crying
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Gene,
Thanks for the complement.
I notice from Alsterstreeks reply too, that an E10 could be used after 1956.


Thanks, that was my second Marklin purchase. I think the # is 3034; but I was
in love with the BR 80 with telex (3031). Will try to buy the MFX version this year.

Alsterstreeks great posts on the F-7's and Alco's series, the pictures are super+.

I too have the Loreley sets, I prefer it to the Rheingold set with the same cars but different lettering (43237/8...?).

I sold all my Rheingold sets, including the red/cream ones (42290/1....).

I can't remember all the Rheingold car #'s, seems like Marklin has 50 ( just kidding)
different Rheingold car series. And then the so-called sets, my first was the 26506 express set
which is now resting in the loft in my garage. Shame on me. And the latest 41929 set

I am still hoping to get the Blue EnZian set, I think it's been run (by Marklin)a couple (at least) time before.



I have the Blue Enzian set too, but the earlier one (42610).
Really nice set, you will like the new one.
Do you like the 37805 V200?
I have one, it is 39800 produced in 2007.

My V200's have turned into shelf queens. I don't have a layout, in the past 25 years, so I
just run the new engines on the rollerstand, and then a couple times a year I go over the
the children's' house and run a few loks/sets on my grandson's layout.

If I am so lucky to get the Blue Enzian set, I know that will be run on the tablebahn, and then
on my grandson' s layout.BigGrin


regards
Kimball



Regards, gene

Kimball: I am so sorry for the clumsy way I answered your highly informative post of the Loreley car sets, and their route. I tried to answer your question but I really muddled my way thru, and probably made your post difficult to follow. I apologize for this transgression, but I am unsure how I could go about to correct my mistakes. Family matters kept me away until now from correcting this transgression"

Maybe one of the Administratiors can delete my post?.Crying gene

Edited by user 17 April 2015 00:09:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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