Morning everyone! Long story short, I don't make a lot of money so when it comes to buying a locomotive I want to make sure my money is spent well.

So here is the Question: What is the general opinion on Roco steam locomotives? Are they good any good, such as running noise, sound clarity, and overall build quality. I just don't want to waste my money on an inferior engine, when I could save a little longer and get a Marklin? The Loco I was looking at is the Roco 68173. Any and all opinions are welcome. Thanks everyone, and Happy New Year!

Edited by moderator 06 January 2015 18:48:01(UTC)  | Reason: title clarity

Hi,

I forgot to tell you that you might also consider an older Austrian Br 50 made by Märklin, such as the 37832. Market prices fall a few years after a model is produced, so you can get such engines cheaper with a little luck. That one still has a Märklin five-pole motor, so you would avoid the quality problems associated with the recent Märklin models. I have the 37831, the DSB version of the Br 50 released in the same year (2010), and that one is flawless.

Best regards, Mark

I have some locos from Roco , (some steamers,) and other brands too, and in my opinion Roco locos runs excellent on Märklin C-track, which I use. I have no problems whatsoever with any of them and they run at least as good as Märklin locos and the quality feels very solid.

I have heard that there are , now and then, some problems using Roco locos with K- and M-track, but since you use C-track I think you should be doing well with this.

didn't fleischmann also use tender drive? it seems like putting the cart in front of the horse. hey, lets not have a lok at all. just put the motor in the caboose! WOW.. look at all the money i've been wasting all these years! i've had a few roco cars and they wouldn't stay on the track at all. i do use m-track and i understand that c-track is much more precise (better for those funny #25 wheels i guess). marklin,marklin,marklin. mike

There's a lot of dodgy information in previous posts in this thread.

As Tom has pointed out, Roco do not use RP25 wheels on their 3-rail locos. They fit their 3 rail locos with wheels with larger flanges that conform to the standard for 3 rail track.

Most derailments with non-Marklin locos is due to incompatible couplings. Watch out when you fit Marklin close couplers onto Roco locos because the coupler tops can foul the buffers, causing derailment. It's better to keep the Roco coupler which matches the Marklin Relex coupler. Another source of derailments is trying to run a loco on a radius which is sharper than recommended.

Roco wagons may derail on Marklin track because you are trying to run them with the original 2-rail wheels. Roco make the correct wheels for 3 rail track for most of their wagons. They are cheap, and some dealers will swap them for you for free.

The statement that most recent Marklin locos have 3 pole motors is not correct. Some do but not most. So do many of the recent Roco, Fleischmann and other maker's locos. The truth is that recent 3 pole motors can be good quality and smoother and quieter than older 5 pole motors.

If you want to know for sure whether other locos match Marklin for quality, buy one and try it out. My personal experience is that other maker's locos today tend to be more detailed than historic Marklin locos, but also more delicate because of this. The same is true for recent Marklin highly detailed locos.

Hello Ray,

I think the purpose of this thread was to give advice to a forum member about how to spend his money best.

But just for the record: I've had a look at the Märklin 2014 news catalogue, and most steam engines in there definitely have a three-pole motor. Märklin doesn't use expensive motors with bell-shapes armatures (Glockenanker) any longer, so all of those models got a three-pole, as well as the latest designs, and those two categories are the majority of steam engines featured in this year's news catalogue (as well as last year's). The Br 52s and the Br 50 in the starter set are older designs with Märklin motors. I made the claim about current steam engines above, and that's true. Mr Bächle has claimed on Märkin TV that Märklin can't use five-pole motors on most steam engines due to lack of space. Most people don't believe that, but he was trying to justify the fact that there are now three-pole motors in most steam engines. (In the new Br 03 Cab Forward there seems to be enough space for a five-pole motor.)

As for Roco's RP25 wheels, I found that information in a discussion on another forum. There a very experienced and serious model railroader claimed that Roco uses RP25 wheels on its latest AC models (not on older designs) without telling customers. On the other forum, nobody contradicted that claim, so I suppose it's not bogus. Anyway, even RP 25 run on Märklin C-rails, so there is no restriction for Märklin users as long as they have C-rails.

To get back to the original question, my advice would be to buy an older Märklin design such as the 37832 as those models can be had at a lower price and don't cause problems, as I know from experience. However, it should be a dealer who accepts Paypal as well as returns just in case and offers some kind of warranty. Spending a lot of money on a new-generation Märklin Br 50 doesn't seem to be sound advice to me if the MRR budget is limited.
I haven't said that three-pole motors are bad, but I've read so many contradictory claims about them that I don't want to invest my money in such models except if the price is less than 250 euros. I don't mind what other people like or buy. Most model I buy now are vintage anyway, and I'm glad that most people don't think like me because that would push up prices.

The Roco steam engine is also a good option (with C-rails), and that would be a new steam engine with a full warranty, so I don't see any risk there, given Roco's good reputation and the very good test results.

Best regards, Mark

Edited by user 27 December 2014 20:10:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I thought that's what I was doing!

Many of the posts giving advice are often no more than the opinions of the poster. I was attempting to put some impartial information on record.

When I mention recent products I am writing about the last 5 or so years. I admit that the 2014 products do contain a higher percentage of 3-pole motors. I suspect that as new suppliers are sought that 5-pole motors will again be fitted in new locos, but only because many buyers are biased against 3 pole motors even when they are perfectly good.

As To RP 25, this is a very fine scale wheel standard not commonly used on european model railways. Most European manufacturers use NEM standards, one NEM standard defines wheels for 2 rail and another for 3 rail . RP 25 is often found on US models. If roco is using RP 25 for european models they are not following correct standards.

Thanks Tom,

That makes things a bit clearer.

Hi Ray,

Here's another Stummi Forum thread in which people say that the AC versions of some recent Roco models are not NEM 340, as they should be, and may cause problems:
AC wheel sets
NEM 340

So I guess that my warning about Roco's 'fine wheels' was not "dodgy information" at all, but just a fact. It seems that Roco got the message and will introduce changes, but they have sold some AC versions with incompatible wheels that need to be replaced by NEM 340 AC ones.

As for the three-pole motors, I used the adverbial "nowadays", which clearly means "now as compared to the past" according to my Longman dictionary. In 2014 most Märklin steam engines really have those three-pole can motors, and the situation was the same last year. Five years ago, many Märklin steam engines had an SDS or a 'Glockenanker', but 'nowadays' cannot be understood to mean 'up to five years ago'.

If you like, you may say that my opinion of three-pole motors is biased. That's right, but I think nobody can really claim to be impartial. I won't pay high prices for Märklin models whose motors are less good than they used to be and inferior to the ones used by their competitors. The five-pole DC motors they have now started using are probably not much better as Märklin is unlikely to use the more expensive type with skewed armatures. I'm still a Märklin fan and I personally like the Siebers; I hope they can improve things.

Best regards, Mark

Hi Tom,

I can definitely agree with what you have just written here. Every company tries out things that don't work, but Roco seems to react faster to criticism than Märklin.

Two days ago, I bought the January issue of Modellbahn Illustrierte. What's interesting in there is that the bosses of the largest MRR manufacturers were asked to comment on this year in a short interview. Roco's sales figures for 2014 are stable, Piko has done better, especially in Germany, and Märklin's sales figures are down once again. Florian Sieber explained that this is due to the fact that Märklin has stopped the practice of overproduction and extra large discounts on unpopular items, which was practised before 2013 to bolster sales figures. That has been said before, but in my opinion the 2014 sales figures mean that Märklin is losing customers, and that Piko is gaining ground at the expense of M*.

I recently started collecting books about the history of Märklin, and what all the books reveal is that historically, Märklin hasn't made money with transparency. At various points in the history of the company, they took the market by surprise and won the day, but nowadays their lack of transparency is counterproductive. Every year some M* customers migrate to Piko, who offer good quality at affordable prices. Being more transparent would help Märklin now, I think.

The second thing that Märklin's history clearly reveals is that the quality problems that they are experiencing now are unprecedented. M* owes a large part of its success to the fact that in the past, M* products were superior to their competitors', and in the 1930s Märklin became the market leader because the Bing company went bust and had to stop producing metal toys. Today's main competitors, Roco and Piko, will probably not disappear, and their products are not inferior any longer.

Nevertheless M* has one key advantage now: its rich owners and their toy empire, where the sun never sets, and there we're back to the China story. Florian Sieber says in that mini-interview in the January issue of Modellbahn Illustrierte that sales of myWorld and StartUp have increased this year, which means that more Märklin products will be made in China again, as you've argued. Märklin will survive and make a comeback in toy shops, but it won't be the reliable German-made Märklin trains I remember from my childhood days ... That's life ...

Best regards,
Mark

This is what i know myself and did tested on my Tillig Elite tracks code 83:
I do have Märklins new wagons both passanger and freight with NEM Wheel sets which are now standard from Märklin and guess what!?
They works on my tracks and turnouts perfect!
So Märklins NEM 340 Wheels is not correct.
The newer models from Märklin do have smaller flanges now.
Same similar like Rocos.
Roco,Fleischmann and Liliput do works very well on the Märklins tracks.
Märklin for 3 rail and Trix for 2 rail do have same wheel flanges,but Trix have isolated wheels while Märklins are non-isolated.
TS use C tracks and it have code 90,so there is no problems by use Rocos locomotiv on the tracks.

It´s difference between locomotives and wagons.
You can change wheels in the wagons,but not with the locomotives like Liliput or Roco whatever.
And Roco with DC do have same wheel flanges like for AC,but not same geometry.
So TS can buy Roco AC and use it for the C tracks.

P.S.
Here you can see two wheels from Märklin and Trix.
The left is Märklin and the right is Trix.

Thanks guys, I've learned something new today!

I stand corrected on the Marklin/Trix wheels. I guess Marklin design their track and wheels to be compatible for both systems.

I still find issues with Liliput and Piko wagons unless the wheels have been swapped. Jouef and Lima seem much more compatible and give fewer running problems on C track with their DC wheels. Roco seems somewhere in between.

As to coaches, I have a few Hag coaches whose wheels axles were very fine, and I had to swap these for 3 rail wheel sets. I aslo swapped some Piko coaches that gave me problems, but others were OK. I have some Lima, some Rivarossi and some Oskar coaches that are running fine on their original wheels.

Hi Panayotis,

Live dangerously and buy yourself a Roco or Piko wagon. I guarantee you won't find a lot of difference in quality between these and Marklin wagons.

With Locomotives there might be a bit more of a difference, but even so, you might be surprised.

By restricting yourself to Marklin you may lose out on a huge range of alternative models available from other manufacturers.

Hi everybody,

I think that all MRR manufacturers should clearly state which norm or code their wheels are and which rails they are compatible with. Leaving buyers in the dark creates misunderstandings and disappointments as prices are high. Roco used some 'fine' wheels that were either RP25 or came close to it without giving customers any precise information. Now they've corrected their mistake, which is positive, but all they explain is that they will use wheels which are a little less 'fine' in future AC versions. This lack of transparency does not help the MRR industry in general, and that's the case for Märklin as well.

I'll stick to Märklin, but that's mostly due to nostalgic feelings, not to the quality of their current models, as well as to the fact that I don't want to spend even more money on model trains. Other manufacturers also produce models that are really worth buying, but my 'Märklin only' policy simply saves me money.

Best regards,
Mark

Why?
Roco do have ESU sound decoder,which are much better than Märklin´s mfx crap decoder.
Roco do also produce locomotives for 3 rail which works good.
The biggest problem from Märklin are mfx decoder and not possible to buy analog locomotives and put later with ESU sound decoder.
You don´t save money to buy Märklin´s locomotive.

We do have NMRA as rules by following NEM for the model railway shall works.
Märklin do it.
Roco do it.
Brawa do it.
Fleischmann do it.
ESU do it.
Trix do it.

I have no problem with the Brawas and Trix wagons.
They fits perfect in same height for the couplings,buffer and wheels standards.
Also with Fleischmann.

IIRC there are reports that Roco/Fleischmann told dealers they were not allowed to discount stock, and so many dealers have stopped buying large quantities of stock from them.

On a somewhat more positive note (it is 2015,yeahhh) i do recall that the wheelsets used by Marklin are sometimes called Pizza cutters,for obvious reasons.
I like the expression,it is a title of honour,in the same way my colleagues are calling me (age 59) "The Old Man".
One thing is for sure,the Pizza cutters have brought Marklin a long way,it is one of the oldest modelrailway brands known,and still going strong.

I drive a tiny Ford KA II,guys driving other and bigger cars think it is rubbish.
Well,it never let me down sofar,and for me that is priority number one for a car.
It does not mean to say that i will be driving Ford forever.

Mild critism does not harm,it is good sometimes to look into a mirror for some selfreflection,and that goes for companies too.
If Marklin would never hear that they should do better they will keep on making the same mistakes.
This is what marketing is all about,listening to your clients and learn from your mistakes.
Nothing wrong with that.

I have just bought a Piko BR01 version DR DDR,and bidding on a Piko BR052 with condensation tender.
I know Piko is not Marklin,but i like them anyway for what they are.

In the new year,let us wait for the new items of Marklin with a loud beating heart,and let our comments be mildly critical,buy what you like to buy,and let other items as is.
Let it be a good Marklin year!

Paul.

Do you have to buy new? from a dealer? I have acquired many of my engines by just waiting and catching them on Ebay. Almost new or little run time, also you can reach out to many dealers and see who gives you the best price on a brand new engine. Shop around is the best policy. I haven't had the best luck with non Marklin engines myself, and will wait awhile before I try that game again. The Roco cars I have bought, and a few other brands don't seem to weight enough? or have poor through the switches causing derails. Good luck, I have scene some impressive videos of Roco engines on Youtube.
all the best,
Matt

You can also watch about 168.000 videos on Youtube, showing perfectly running Märklin locomotives:

https://www.youtube.com/...earch_query=m%C3%A4rklin

Even the 37002 BR211 or the V100.10, which is sold as 37003 have very good reviews on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/...query=M%C3%A4rklin+37002

https://www.youtube.com/...query=M%C3%A4rklin+37003

( The locomotive Goofy claimed to own, even if he mixed up the numbers, and of which he couldn't produce a picture. )

Per.

Hi!
On the homepage you can read "A site intended to share the fun of Märklin and model railroads."
So IMHO one can participate on this forum even if s/he does not like everything that Märklin sells or sold.
And I assume that 99% of the members here will agree that not everything sold by Märklin is good quality.

Hi Matt,

Buying second-hand can be a great experience. I've sold a lot of Märklin engines as well as cars to reduce the scope of my collection, but almost every item I sold made someone happy. Buyers loved getting stuff from my collection as those things were usually mint and in perfect working condition.
The only complaint I have ever had was about a missing plastic handrail on a Chinese-made Märklin box car. I hadn't noticed that when I put the cars on Ebay, so I refunded one third of the price, and that buyer was happy as well. I've also bought a lot of things second-hand.

Products with defects exist, but all MRR manufacturers are affected by this problem.

Best regards, Mark

I often get the feeling that some of those who post here think that Marklin has some kind of "master plan" to defraude their customers, or somehow fool them into buying rubbish.

I'm sure that Marklin has a management team who try to produce the products we all want. As with all companies, they sometimes get a few things wrong, but a lot of what has been criticised recently are merely attempts by them to produce models that appeal to a majority of their fans while at the same time trying to innovate and excell. As an example, the much criticised "too high" buffers is a continuation of a policy of backwards compatibility with their older products, as is their perseverence with the Marklin digital system.

I often find myself very disappointed by the constant "Marklin bashing", to the point that I cringe every time someone writes about 3-pole motors. Most of these posters are in blyth ignorance that many manufacturers actually use 3 pole motors in their current models, or that Marklin itself has made all it's models with 3 pole motors throughout much of its history.

Please, by all means point out a problem with your models when it comes to light, but do so in a fair and balanced way.

I'll say no more on the subject.

As Märklin did verified byself,we must become better with the quality and technology,which proffs Märklin is not always good as usual before.
Criticals comments present when something is wrong about train models.
I will do the same way about Märklin´s tracks,specially frogs in theirs turnouts.
It do often not fits correctly with the geometry with competitiors train models.
If Märklin did just correct the errors with trimming on the turnouts,i would been satisfaction.