Hi all,

I would like to run 4 trains on the same line continuously but with the safety feature that should 1 stop or drop a wagon/coach the following train would stop automatically.

I would prefer to not go to computer control or use any signals.....

I am using K flex track so thought each block could be 2.7m ( 3 sections ), I believe it would require 8 blocks.

I have a total length of 26m for the route mainly using 2205 track.

Most of the track is in position, but no electrical connections /work done yet.

Any help/advice/input much appreciated.

This will be a new and exciting challenge for me, so please be gentle.

Ian.

Hello,

The easiest way to acomplish that you want is to use a software like RR&co WinDigiPet or others, then you will need to use retrodecoders s88 and decoders k83 for all turnouts and electromagnetic devices.

I think that the CS2 has the posibilities to do something, for example push-pull trains but I don't know exactly what the CS can do, in any way you wiil need also s88 and k83.

Other posibility is to use a simple analog system, only with the turnouts and signals and relais, but will need some acknowledge in electrics to design and wire your system.

Then , what to do?

I suggest to learn (That's mean to read and understad) the marklin signal book, ther is a lot of versions that you can get in the web for example

http://www.lctm.info/Biblioteca/Libros/index.htm

It doesn't matter if the book is from the 70s or is the last one, the theory and how the block system works is the same.

Some easy rules:
Numer of blocks must be grater that number of trains, the minimun is blocks=trains + 1
Always every block has to be longer that the longest train

Hope this helps, best regards

Hi Ian

Perhaps the issue is whether you would like prototypical slowing of locos before they are stopped or are simply using this as a safety feature in which case a sudden stop by a locomotive before it enters the next block will be acceptable. In either case some external intelligence is required to trigger the train stopping. A CS2 has the capability of doing this and is being used by AndreasK to run his complete layout. As far as I am aware he uses a 72442 equivalent connected to a K84 as the mechanism to stop the trains. This allows the train to slow before stopping. It also allows for signals to be added if prototypical operation is required - although you mentioned that this would not be your preference. Signals do allow you to see whether a loco remains stopped because of dirty track or whether it is waiting for something on the track ahead to be moved.

If you are happy with a sudden stop, you could use the CS2 and drive a 7244 relay (or equivalent) from a K84 which would simply switch off the power to a section of track, bringing any loco to an immediate and sudden stop. The relay could also drive a simple signal if needed.

The sensor side of the system is fairly simple and would involve isolating one side of the track from the brown power supply and connecting that isolated track section to a S88. This would provide the feedback to the CS2 as any wheel sets in the isolated track section would act as a switch (connecting to the other track) and send a signal to the S88 for onward transmission to the CS2.

Using a computer adds flexibility but at the same time does add complexity. There are a number of alternatives that can be considered here - RocRail and Railroad & Co Train Controller to mention 2.

Irrespective of which route you choose it is important that you understand the basics. My experience is that if you are willing to experiment you should be able to pick up the knowledge needed fairly quickly. There is also this forum where there is a wealth of knowledge.

I agree with your approach of starting your automation with one track. When you are comfortable you can decide whether this should be expanded to other parts of your layout.

The 72442 is not a relay, but a brake module.
You need to divide your block into a number of sections.
First the free run section, no influence of the brake module. As long as you need, but a minimum of your longest train is advisable
Second: the change section, which "sends" a signal to the decoder of the loco and make it stop. About half a track (9 cm)
Third: the braking section. The loco will come to a stop based on the settings of the decoder. Lights, steam and so on are still on. Minimum 3 tracks long.
The safety section. Has no current when showing red.
You don't need the relay from the signal, but connect the signal to the module to show the correct lights and/or semaphore movements.
You don't need a computer or other decoders.

I use that on my lay-out in combination with Viessmann semaphore signals.

Hi Ian:

The block system doesn't work like that. It's not the number of locos, but the way the blocks are organized on your layout that is important . To work properly, your entire layout should be divided in blocks. The more you have, the better the safety will be. A block is delimited by a signal at both end. Say for example you have a main station with 5 tracks. If you want to use the tracks in any direction, you should have 10 signals (2 per tracks), block 1 will be on track 1, block 2 on track 2, etc...Inside of each main block, you can determine "sub-blocks" that are used to slow down progressively the trains. I personally use two sub-blocks for each of my tracks in my main station, but three would even be better, especially in the case of your pretty large layout.

If you want, could you please post a sketch of the layout you want to manage by computer. It would be easier for me to divide your layout in blocks if I have a sort of blue print. When the blocks are thought carefully, it would be then easier to create routes and itineraries with whatever software you will choose.

Best regards,

Pierre

Hi Ian

I you want to be prototypical there should be a free section between trains.

What I call the change section shouldn't be longer than 9 cm. From my experience I know from experience that a second pick up shoe (eg from the first coach behind the loco) entering that section causes a short when the first hasn't completely left the section.

Of course you can easily cut the flex track completely to make the desired length. But it's easier to use 2 times a 4,5 cm piece.

Hi Ian,

Yes – that should work. With 8 blocks and 4 trains you will always have 1 block free in front of the train.

I think Piet is talking about the section if you use a brake module, where you would normally divide the block into 3 sections (one of these are called the change section).

The brake module is not necessary but will give a smooth stop and acceleration.

There are some good general advise in above post but no one actually puts forward the solution you are after; the CS2 to control the trains and ensure a train will not enter an occupied blocks (monitored by S88).

As I said it my previous post – I’m not sure it’s that easy. I think we need the advice from some CS2 users who actually is using something similar?

I know some creative automation can also be done by using a K84 decoder to disable a sensor (e.g. used during shuttle mode).

The guy we need to ask about all this is Mr. Clapcott. Maybe drop him a PM?

Brgds - Lasse

Hi Ian

You should also send AndreasK a PM as his layout has a block control system managed from his CS2. He will be able to add practical experience of getting the system to work. Also his experience now that it is installed and running.

Hello Ian,
I wanted to also mention the aspect of operational reliability. The contact tracks are very reliable, yet they will have a long "ON" signal when the entire length of the train goes over it. This will trigger the change in signal aspect and any switches (points) you may want to include in your control circuitry for the same long duration. Marklin has changed the switch motors (point motors) so they will not burn out with long signals but their reliability remains a question mark. (see complaints about C-track switch motors, K track not much different).

Harvey mentioned reed switches instead of contact sections which is a good idea. It has a shorter "ON" signal. Switch tracks triggered by the loco's pickup show also give momentary contacts yet they are relatively unreliable ( do not switch, get stuck after switching and will not return to original position., sometimes work/sometimes not etc.). The option I am pursuing is using a track current as an "ON" switch element in the S88 system. This is also momentary ( length of shortest track, i.e.. 90 mm or so (must be longer than longest pickup shoe)) yet also with bombproof reliability. Viessmann and LDT supply units that function as current detectors for S88 systems. The only drawback with this approach is that pickup shoes for lighting under passenger wagons will also give an unwanted signal.

No system is without its drawbacks.

Fkowal

Hi all,

Thanks again for the help and advice.

Lasse...PM sent.

Ian.

Hi Piet,

Thanks, no doubt I'll have plenty more questions to come...

Ian.

Hi all,

Since the block system using a CS2 and K track is new to me I plan on building a small test track, this will be a simple oval and I would split that into 4 blocks and control 2 trains, this allows me 1 clear block between trains and would be a similiar setup to what I plan for the layout.

Also I would like to use the brake module 72442 for each block, and do not want to use any signals.

So, how do I set out the contact tracks for each block, and how is it all wired together.

I hope to make the contact tracks myself, but for the rest I'd need some kind of list so to order what parts are required.

Any help/advice much appreciated.

Ian.

Hi Michel,

Thanks, just the kind of information I'm looking for.

Plenty of reading there, understanding it, well that's a little more difficult...

Will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again.

Ian.

Hi Lasse,

Thanks very much.

I shall get the parts that I need ordered this weekend.

Ian.

Hi Glenn,

I'm glad we had the discussion last weekend, the basic idea has just evolved a bit.

Ian.

Hi all,

Parts delivered from Lokshop, still waiting on the 60882 s/m88, not delivered from Marklin yet.

Ian.







....

Hi Ian,

My starting point is creating the block lenght, installing the insulators and then installing the feeder wires. I use 18 AWG wire (American Wire Gauge) ((metric 0.75 mm)) for the feeders and 14 AWG wire ((metric 1.628)) for the bus. Most importantly is having everything going to a central location and labelling all the wires so you can trace them when a fault occurs.

One word of advise whenever connecting wire to any devise make sure that the power is off. You will need a wire terminal bar to have all the wires connected to. Use smaller wires from the wire terminal bar to the devices.

Michel

Hi Ian,

Sorry I got carried away,forgetting about the test track, Best is to wire it up and see how it works!

Michel

Hi all,

Making a start....

Ian.




....

Hi Lasse,

I've had that T299 for around 5 years, but she never ran well on my M track layout (used to stick on the points/switches), so first run on K track, that's her running round with 3 clicks on the CS2.

Ian.