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Offline H0  
#51 Posted : 27 November 2013 21:24:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,468
Location: DE-NW
Maybe the 60822 contains hardware similar to the 60115 track connection box: four diodes and a capacitor ...

When it's shipped then sooner or later pictures will appear here or on Stummi's Forum.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline steventrain  
#52 Posted : 03 January 2014 21:51:34(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 32,685
Location: Northern Ireland
60822 image.

Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline clapcott  
#53 Posted : 03 January 2014 22:16:48(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
60822 image.


No,
That is an artists impression and not an image of an actual 60822

It conveys absolutely nothing of value.

Worse still, is the fact that the cataloge description has not been corrected and is still misleading by referencing the 60822s use with a k83 , even though Marklin Service have replied last year saying that " .. it makes no sense ..."
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#54 Posted : 31 January 2014 20:33:32(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
While continuing to explore the product (m84 in this case) evidence of further shortcomings in the documentation are exposed.

I mention some here so as to group the items together initially, separate threads to discuss them may be spawned as required.

Incorrect:
The m84 has 8 relays (SPST), not 4 as per the marketing documentation (implying SPDT). One for each port.

While the m84 is configured by default to act as pairs (Red / Green when you turn one on it turns his mate off - see CVs) they can also be configured to operate independently. In this configuration a command to a port (e.g. 1Green) will toggle it relay on if it was off or off it was on.
Limitation - As with the m83, with this toggling managed by the m84 it is impossible (currently) to send specific On/Off commands from a controller.

Wiring-wise the center terminal (of a pair) is common, this just means that the whatever voltage used applies to both ports of that pair but it can be used to turn on/off 2 independent loads that use the same voltage (e.g. lights). Each of the 4 pairs could have a different purpose (voltage) e.g. 1R/1G could be 16VAC, 2G/2R could be 12VDC, 3G/3R could be a digital signal, 4G/4R could be a speaker signal (to direct to speakers in 2 parts of the layout)


Missing totally:
The Hobby Light connections are designed for LEDs,
An unlisted feature is that the brightness can be varied. This is a single Dim value that applies to all 16 (hobby connector) outputs of a m84
NOTE: PLEASE TELL YOUR FRIENDS. who may be contemplating using a m84 in a HobbySignal environment that the default/factory setting for this dimming is ZERO - i.e. off

Incomplete:
The CV table is missing references to allow for the configuration of features.
While some may be considered hacking a bit, the information is available (In the m84 CV template of the last CS2 update) and at least one, the HobbyLight dimmer function CV is REQUIRED in order to get the box to work.

FYR:
CV = 38 (name=Hobbysignal Helligkeit = hobby signal brightness)
Values = 0 to 10 (0 = off, 10 = full brightness)


I

Edited by user 04 February 2014 00:35:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline Ross  
#55 Posted : 01 February 2014 00:18:54(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 677
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Peter/All,

Thanks for this great topic as it helps us all try and understand these new products. I have supplied a wiring diagram for LED lighting which I sent to Marklin service asking if it was the correct method, I'm still waiting for a reply.

UserPostedImage

The 1k resistor across the LED is used to suppress the LED glowing in the OFF position. The value can vary from 470R up to 1k. Measure the voltage across the LED and vary the resistor value so the voltage is below the minimum switch on voltage for the LED.
The other 1k resistor connected by the yellow wire is the current limiting resistor.


Below are some comments and questions I sent to Marklin which I'm still waiting a reply

1. On Page 21 of the English instructions the values always require a maths solution.

We recommend the following pulse widths und periods for our turnout mechanisms:
C Track turnout: 30%, 250 milliseconds
K Track turnout: 75%, 500 milliseconds
M Track turnout: 75%, 1000 milliseconds

As a default the pulse width value = 255 (100%) and the period value = 4 (.05sec x 4) should be specified.

I think a table showing the pulse width value (range 0-255) then (%) and the period value (range 0-255) then (%) would eliminate any maths problems for the customer.

2. Settings for individual outputs is misleading and confusing.
CV Meaning, Value, Comment
130 POM Switching Function Turnout 4, red 0 – 18 Switches the “red“ output for the fourth turnout
131 POM Pulse Width 0 – 255 255 = 100 %
132 POM Period 0 – 255 Time interval between the pauses; 1 = 0.05 sec.

For Switching Funtion the value option (0-18 is a range of options) and is confusing as it isn't clear that the Switch value must be entered if present.
As an example CV 130 value=130 not CV130 value=2 for Blinking light 1
and CV 130 value=18 when the switch value is missing for the min. switching with end switch.

Possible Switching Functions
0 128 Everything off
1 129 Dimmer
2 130 Blinking light 1
3 131 Blinking light 2 Parallel blinking light to blinking light 1
4 132 Flash 1 Flashing blinking light
5 133 Flash 2 Double flashing blinking light
6 134 Random task / flickering light Random sequence of pause/pulse
8 136 Zoom Soft turning on/off
9 137 Mars Specific blinking light
10 138 Gyra Specific blinking light
13 141 Tubes Simulates fluorescent tube lights
14 142 Low energy lamp Simulates energy-saving lamps
16 — Max. switching “Period“ indicates the max. switching time
17 — Min. switching “Period“ indicates the min. switching time
18 * — Min. switching with end switch Switching time is “period“ or until the end
position is reached


3. When setting up the decoder address CV1 and CV9 should be included in the table to help prevent errors when in DCC mode.

4. In the English Catalog for 2013/2014 on page 533 it states that the maximum current load is 3 amps. Is this for each output or does it mean 3 amps divided by 8 outputs = 375mA ?

5. In the catalog it states that the m83 decoder can be updated. I can't find any mention in the instructions how this can be done. Please tell me how.

6. Why is there no technical specifications in the instructions stating the maximum current for each output?
Is the decoder short circuit protected?
Is the decoder overload protected?

I hope over time my questions will be answered.

Comment on the m83
I think the m83 is well engineered on a 4 layer PCB. The switching components are robust and with the extra options and a competitive price Marklin is heading in the right direction.
Ross
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Ross
Offline sjlauritsen  
#56 Posted : 01 February 2014 19:30:47(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
I got a mail from Märklin. The 60822 is to comply with the EMC specifications in the EU.

"60822 ist dafür notwendig, dass die aktuellen EMV-Vorschriften bei einer externen Leistungsversorgung dieses Decoder auch eingehalten werden. Ein Betrieb ohne diese Entstörung ist aus juristischen Gründen nicht erlaubt."

Basically it prevents electromagnetic interference. As Märklin writes, you are not allowed to use the decoder without the 60822 for legal reasons. Märklin cannot say this, for legal reasons, but you should be able to use the decoder without the 60822 as well. Which also explains why the good people of the Internet can too. :-)
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
Offline clapcott  
#57 Posted : 01 February 2014 22:08:58(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I got a mail from Märklin. The 60822 is to comply with the EMC specifications in the EU.

Basically it prevents electromagnetic interference.


Hi Søren

I'm afraid someone will have to spell this out for me step by step.

If I can use a m83/m84 natively from the track only (which has a distorted power wave form, generating numerous harmonics) , then how is it possible that a cleaner DC power source (66361/5) with less harmonics (theoretically none) is able to result in greater EMI generation?

Where is his EMI really coming from? (or are we talking EMS ?)

Anyone with a m83/m84 has probably have noticed the high frequency audible tone that is emitted from the device. At this stage I put this down to the rectifying circuit, particularly needed for "track fed only" configurations and possibly with the PWM generator being used for dimming.
The most logical explanation for the need of an external interface (suppression unit) in the DC power feed line is to protect the PS from some backfeeding FROM the m83/m84.

Either way it seems to me that the fix, could be fixed (should be fixed = product recall) by a redesign and product recall.
Having to fork out 40E on a device that only costs 35E (plus PS= 50E) screams incompetence.

And all or this does not explain the deficiencies of marketing to accurately describe the product requirements in the marketing documentation. i.e. it is not until a buyer gets the product home and read the user manual that they are even aware of the need for a 60822. Should there be a policy to adhere to a newer? compliance regime, then any marketing department worth their salt would be extolling the virtues of it with a spin that both explains and differentiates (e.g. from competitors with devices of outwardly equivalent functionality)

My apologies if I am missing something obvious to the rest of you.
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#58 Posted : 01 February 2014 22:24:09(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
.... I have supplied a wiring diagram for LED lighting which I sent to Marklin service asking if it was the correct method, I'm still waiting for a reply.

The 1k resistor across the LED is used to suppress the LED glowing in the OFF position. The value can vary from 470R up to 1k. Measure the voltage across the LED and vary the resistor value so the voltage is below the minimum switch on voltage for the LED.
The other 1k resistor connected by the yellow wire is the current limiting resistor.



Ross, I also used 1K resistors in my testing


Quote:

4. In the English Catalog for 2013/2014 on page 533 it states that the maximum current load is 3 amps. Is this for each output or does it mean 3 amps divided by 8 outputs = 375mA ?

I also made note above of the noted requirement for the 66361/5 as the only possible external power source. And therefore with it only able to provide 2 amps, any extra (up to 3) must come from the track. All this does not bode well for the "really" capability of baying (dasychaining) multiple m8x of a single PS

Quote:

6. Why is there no technical specifications in the instructions stating the maximum current for each output?
Is the decoder short circuit protected?
Is the decoder overload protected?

Yep!, information of the utmost importance.
Peter
Offline sjlauritsen  
#59 Posted : 01 February 2014 22:27:57(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
If I can use a m83/m84 natively from the track only (which has a distorted power wave form, generating numerous harmonics) , then how is it possible that a cleaner DC power source (66361/5) with less harmonics (theoretically none) is able to result in greater EMI generation?

I am no expert at all, but as far as I understand, the 60822 is not needed because the m83/84 is missing anything. It is needed because the 66361 PS lacks the functionality of the 60822 (apparently required by law in the EU). Basically if you could find a PS with the features of the 60822 and the same output as the 66361 you would be home free. Some times a PS have a little bulge around the cord before the output-plug. This is the same as the 60822.

No one says that it will actually generate any interference, but law requires the functionality of the 60822 to be present. To me, this is a big difference because it potentially makes all of this purely theoretical.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
Offline clapcott  
#60 Posted : 01 February 2014 23:11:03(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
If I can use a m83/m84 natively from the track only (which has a distorted power wave form, generating numerous harmonics) , then how is it possible that a cleaner DC power source (66361/5) with less harmonics (theoretically none) is able to result in greater EMI generation?

... Basically if you could find a PS with the features of the 60822 and the same output as the 66361 you would be home free.


I have already had a reply from Marklin Service stating that only the 66361/5 can be used and they cannot (will not) furnish me the details for an equivalent

Quote:

Some times a PS have a little bulge around the cord before the output-plug. This is the same as the 60822.

Where are you getting this information ?

Quote:

No one says that it will actually generate any interference, but law requires the functionality of the 60822 to be present. To me, this is a big difference because it potentially makes all of this purely theoretical.

OK, I do understand that thinking, however it only reinforces the idea of Marklin providing a single PS that meets the optimally matched power usage
Peter
Offline sjlauritsen  
#61 Posted : 01 February 2014 23:30:57(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Where are you getting this information?

I base it on the information about the 60822 being a unit that prevents interference (and does only that!). The little bulge on many power supply units from different manufacturers is also there to prevent interference. If you have a laptop, it some times have such a bulge on the power cord. My Lenovo has one, just before the gray plug. (This is just an example, I do not/cannot use a Lenovo PS for the m83/84!)

Lenovo power supply

Quote:
OK, I do understand that thinking, however it only reinforces the idea of Marklin providing a single PS that meets the optimally matched power usage

My guess, and I can only guess, is that the 66361 was made with the railbox in mind, which probably has a built-in "60822". Then along came the m83/m84. Either Märklin had to create a new PS for use with the m83/84 with a built-in 60822 or they could make an "add-on" for the 66361 in cases where it is used together with the m83/84.

I am not sure you could have built the 60822 into the m83/m84, because you are able to connect more decoders together in a chain.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
Offline clapcott  
#62 Posted : 03 February 2014 00:06:22(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Where are you getting this information?

I base it on the information about the 60822 being a unit that prevents interference (and does only that!).

I cannot reconcile the "(and does only that!)" with the Product Database.

"The k83/m83/m84 Universal Supply Unit is for supplying power to k83, m83, and m84 decoders from conventional Märklin transformers or from the 66361 and 66365 switched mode power packs.
One Universal Supply Unit is required per group of accessory decoders (note the maximum power limit!)."


While I do challenge the integrity of this description due to the k83 reference, I would appreciate some substance about the removal of the reference to conventional transformer.

Quote:

The little bulge on many power supply units from different manufacturers is also there to prevent interference.

Yes, I am aware of toroids and balans, .... and the possibility of retrofitting of them
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#63 Posted : 03 February 2014 01:16:52(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Just a bit of elaboration on the addressing methods of the m83/m84 and the noted observation that the address switches MAY no relied on.

With reference to the 74461/65 that uses the same 10 position DIP switch block, in which position 10 was also used to determine MM/DCC protocol format and pos 1-9 defined a binary address ...
- if switch positions 1 to 9 were all OFF (binary address = 0) then soft addressing was recognized by the value set in CV1
- if the switches 1 to 9 made a NON zero address, then that address would takes priority.
In the later mode, attempts at programming of CV1 could be done (although not seen) but would be ignored and the hard coded DIP switch address would ALWAYS win out.

With the m83/m84, CV1 can be written to and will be active immediately even for a NONzero address in the DIP switch block.
This CV1 address will "stick" across power OFF/ONs - UNTIL THE DIP Address is CHANGED.

e.g.
DIP SW pos 1&2 ON = address 3 (port addresses 9-12)
Set CV1 to 4 - port addresses become 13-16 immediately
Power Off/On with DIP SW unchanged (1&2 on implying address 3) - HAS NO EFFECT - and port addresses remain at 13-16
It is not until the DIP SW address is changed to anything other than 3 that the value of the switches is acknowledged and acted up.

This is probably a bug.
It is also a situation that most modellers may not find themselves in, however if a MS2 type controller - without a separate programming track is utilized (to configure Loco addresses for example) it is no longer sufficient to just remove all other locos from the track, the accessory decoders m83/m84 have to be isolated as well
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#64 Posted : 03 February 2014 01:25:04(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
...
While the m84 is configured by default to act as pairs (Red / Green when you turn one on it turns his mate off - see CVs) they can also be configured to operate independently. In this configuration a command to a port (e.g. 1Green) will toggle it relay on if it was off or off it was on.
Limitation - As with the m83, with this toggling managed by the m84 it is impossible (currently) to send specific On/Off commands from a controller.


To confirm also, the toggling effect referred to by sending commands from a digital controller ALSO applies to the manual(analogue?)/direct connect switch terminals 1-8 (user guide diagram pg10 item "7")
Peter
Offline sjlauritsen  
#65 Posted : 03 February 2014 06:29:35(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
While I do challenge the integrity of this description due to the k83 reference, I would appreciate some substance about the removal of the reference to conventional transformer.

I am just the messenger, I am just telling you what Märklin service told me. My question to Märklin was about the 60822 and the 66361 power supply. This might have influenced the answer from the service department, so perhaps they replied with that in mind, and left out what to do if I had an old conventional transformer. I do not know about that.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
Offline sjlauritsen  
#66 Posted : 04 February 2014 08:30:43(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
This is probably a bug.
It is also a situation that most modellers may not find themselves in, however if a MS2 type controller - without a separate programming track is utilized (to configure Loco addresses for example) it is no longer sufficient to just remove all other locos from the track, the accessory decoders m83/m84 have to be isolated as well

Great, it is not just me then! I can confirm this. I thought I was safe using the DIP-switches, but no. I hope an update comes around that will fix this problem, if at all possible.

Yet another reason to always use some sort of isolated track for programming.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
Offline clapcott  
#67 Posted : 05 February 2014 03:16:39(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
As another reference pointer the MM2014/1(English) has a 6 page "part1" article on the "New M83 Digital Decoder" pg 16-21

After a brief introduction highlighting stating the M83 is a radically development from the K83 and summarising some of the new feature, the remaining 4 pages are dedicated to the topic of addressing via the switch block (this article does not cover soft programming)

In the article, a couple of statements are made that I feel a need to qualify

errata - The first line of the section "Numerous possible combinations" pg 18 notes
... in theory 29 = 512 different combinations ...
should read
... in theory 2^9 (2 to the power of 9) = 512 different combinations ...

contentious
.. "The DCC system supports up to 9999 different addresses"
probably just a glib statement as the mobile address range is an oddball 10,240 (40*256 : 40 because not all bit values are defined otherwise it would be 64)
BUT
this does not account for the fact that we are talking about accessory decoders which have their own address space of a lesser 512(9 bits for basic) with a specialised extension offering 2048 (11 bits) in theory. The basic mode is used for devices , like the m8x, that have 8 ports (usually considered as 4 pairs) - thus 2048 pairs or 4096 individual ports are addressable.
Should a controller (by choice or design) use a subset of this it should not be referred to as a DCC support issue, similarly if a system finds a creative way to utilise bits reserved or otherwise defined in DCC - then it is not DCC.

... Addresses above 511 can be used ... setting no longer function by using coding switches ... purely electronic programming....
I read this as a hangover from the wording associated with the 74461/5 addressing. In the context of a 4 port M83, 511 "boxes" CAN be addressed with the 9 position switch block giving 512*4 = 2048 "port pair" addresses in theory (with "box" address 0 reserved, this becomes 2044)

... using coding switches ... In addition, the address cannot be unintentionally reprogrammed
As has been reported, this is not being seen in practice - probably a bug.

... revised Techniktipp (technology tip) 305....
not sure about the "revised" bit, but the one currently in print at
http://www.maerklin.de/m...faq/Technik-Tipp-305.pdf
makes no reference the m83 or a binary addressing table.
I do think a table or App(calculator) is far better than a wordy 2 page description, so I refer you back to the attachment in a previous post above
in the meantime https://www.marklin-user...-reading.aspx#post429327

While the article makes reference to an address range of 1-2044 (which is observed in operation), the marketing database says 1-2040

Edited by user 06 February 2014 21:13:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline pschloes  
#68 Posted : 09 February 2014 00:05:48(UTC)
pschloes

United States   
Joined: 01/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 14
I am needing to use multiple decoders to connect my older k track solenoid switches to a CS2 & I have settled on using the m83. Has anyone used the m83 with an external power supply & if so, has anyone used a cheaper supply (i.e. from radioshack) ... if so what specs?
Thanks!
Offline clapcott  
#69 Posted : 09 February 2014 22:10:24(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: pschloes Go to Quoted Post
has anyone used a cheaper supply (i.e. from radioshack) ...

Yes, but I must stress it is impossible to guarantee any extrapolation up to max load and worst case operating conditions

Quote:
if so what specs?

This is an outstanding issue and one that I suspect will only addressed by building a list of working situations

Marklin state that the external power source must be their 66361/66365 power supplies (Ex MS2)
These power supplies have a 2A rating yet the 60831 is noted ad supporting a 3A capacity.
These power supplies have a 18V output, yet the base of the 60831 (nowhere else) states 19V

the "requirement" (as documented) for a 60822 and its function/capabilities are still an unknown, as the product is not available yet
the use of 60821s may also need to be taken into consideration.

Other unknown consideration relate to the baying/daisy-chaining of multiple 60831/41s and if the 3A rating noted is specific to a single 60831 or relates to the total current allowed for the whole chain.


Personally, I am tending to consider the 60831 as a dual purpose product and thus wiring in 2 different ways.
- For momentary (traditional) loads like points and signals where only one is being activated at a time, I see power coming "through the red" being supplied by a dedicated booster
While having an external power option sounds good, the logistics of wiring each and every one with its own PS causes the idea to loose its lustre.

- For advanced function mode , where loads a constant (Light features, motor controls) I think the external PS is mandatory. However, the logistics of assessing the power requirements and wiring up potentially one PS per m83 needs to be thought through when it comes to locating items under the layout.
A number of modelers will say that all you need is a single big 19V DC power supply and to run a pair of wires around the layout and tapping off to each m83. While this is possible, manufacturers like Marklin cannot quantify the unknown, as it relates to compliance requirements for safety, health, interference etc and therefore we are unlikely to see anything from them in writing other than "not covered under their warrantee"

I am forever hopeful that the 66361/66365 restriction will be extended, at least to their 60061/60101. In doing so they may have to bring out a variant of the 60200 with a fixed 2.5mm DC power connector(s), in order to be able to meet commercial compliance requirements.
Peter
Offline flying_arch  
#70 Posted : 16 February 2014 10:23:14(UTC)
flying_arch

Malaysia   
Joined: 06/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Malaysia
Hi guys,

Bought the decoder m 84 yesterday for my hobby signal and layout lightings. Unfortunately, the decoder did not turned on. There was no lights from the decoder. Very strange. Can I directly use power supply from MS2 ie 66361 to check the monitor lights? Appreciate your assistance. Thanking in advance. :)
User is suspended until 23/08/2019 10:37:50(UTC) Goofy  
#71 Posted : 16 February 2014 10:32:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,004
Originally Posted by: flying_arch Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

Bought the decoder m 84 yesterday for my hobby signal and layout lightings. Unfortunately, the decoder did not turned on. There was no lights from the decoder. Very strange. Can I directly use power supply from MS2 ie 66361 to check the monitor lights? Appreciate your assistance. Thanking in advance. :)


Yes you can use MS2 with digital box as power feeder to m84.
Just simple follow how to connect with two wires,brown and red to m84.

DCC means Digital Command Control.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline clapcott  
#72 Posted : 17 February 2014 00:00:14(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: flying_arch Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,
Unfortunately, the decoder did not turned on. There was no lights from the decoder.
Very strange.

I will presume you are referring to the lights (qty=8) next to the outputs - and that the 2 input lights, next to the Red and Brown wires are on/blinking and indicating that there is a connection with your controller.

If this is the case then what you are observing is the normal - out of the box from the factory state for these units.
The output/relay/led does not activate until you address it.

A logic disconnect needs to be made with the old k84, where EITHER the red output OR the green output would switch though to the common (middle) connection. In the m84 EACH output is controlled by separate relay and they can , potentially , be both off or both on.

The configuration of the m84 from the plant has all relays off but defined as pairs, so once you start using them they will subsequently behave like a k84 unless you reconfigure the operation of the unit.


If my starting presumption is incorrect, please provide a more succinct description of your symptoms


Quote:
Can I directly use power supply from MS2 ie 66361 to check the monitor lights?

a) Yes :Field experience has shown that a 666261 can be connected directly without the 60822 mentioned by marklin to be compliant

b) No: The monitor lights do not NEED an external power supply to work
Peter
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Offline flying_arch  
#73 Posted : 17 February 2014 13:36:30(UTC)
flying_arch

Malaysia   
Joined: 06/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Malaysia
Dear Clapcott,

Yes, the lights just above the red and brown terminal at the decoder did not turned on. I tested the decoder at my test layout hooked on ms2 and the track.

I dont understand your reply in regards to programming the decoder using the old k84. I dont have the decoder. Can you address it using CS 2 or MS 2? My knowledge on electronics is skin deep and I dont know what relays is :(

Appreciate your assistance. Thank you.
Offline clapcott  
#74 Posted : 17 February 2014 20:53:25(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: flying_arch Go to Quoted Post
...
Yes, the lights just above the red and brown terminal at the decoder did not turned on.

I tested the decoder at my test layout hooked on ms2 and the track.


If you have neither of the 2 indicators above the Red/Brown blinking/pulsing then
- there is no connection to a digital controller
- or it is faulty.

This is a most fundamental indication, at this stage no configuration of the m84 is going to help, the Brown light will blink regularly, regardless of the address, as long as a digital signal is detected. If you get the read and brown wires around the wrong way the both LEDs will blink rapidly.

If you are sure the wires are connected correctly from the MS2 RailBox and the MS2 is on (not "stop") and is OK (able to control other locos), then there is something wrong with the m84.

Please record the serial number of the m84
Peter
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Offline flying_arch  
#75 Posted : 18 February 2014 01:22:20(UTC)
flying_arch

Malaysia   
Joined: 06/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Malaysia
Thank you very much for the reply. I have sent the decoder to the shop. Might have to wait for a replacement then. 👌
Offline clapcott  
#76 Posted : 26 February 2014 01:19:09(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
...
While the m84 is configured by default to act as pairs (Red / Green when you turn one on it turns his mate off - see CVs) they can also be configured to operate independently. In this configuration a command to a port (e.g. 1Green) will toggle it relay on if it was off or off it was on.
Limitation - As with the m83, with this toggling managed by the m84 it is impossible (currently) to send specific On/Off commands from a controller.


To confirm also, the toggling effect referred to by sending commands from a digital controller ALSO applies to the manual(analogue?)/direct connect switch terminals 1-8 (user guide diagram pg10 item "7")


Some further explanation is needed for this.

The m84 is actually a 8 port device with each port having individual capabilities.
It is actually an Additional Feature of the item that allows the the activation command of one port (e.g. 1Red) to cause a deactivation of an other(s) (i.e. 1Green)

The emphasis here is on "others" - note the plural , meaning none, one or more.
Note: to use a single port (toggle mode) - as well as changing the code for the port mode, you will also need to disable the turnoff mode of his mate

Within the CVs available, there is an additional CV for EACH of the eight ports that acts as MASK to indicate what additional devices to TURN OFF after you have turned on the primary port
The CV#s are #136 to #143 for ports 1(1Red) to 8(4Green) respectively.

The "bits" (named Right to Left for human convenience) of the value for the mask are weighted as such
- bit 1 = 1 = port 1 (1R)
- bit 2 = 2 = port 2 (1G)
- bit 3 = 4 = port 3 (2R)
- bit 4 = 8 = port 4 (2G)
- bit 5 = 16 = port 5 (3R
- bit 6 = 32 = port 6 (3G)
- bit 7 = 64 = port 7 (4R)
- bit 8 = 128 = port 8 (4G)

Thus , the factory default for port 1(1R) CV#136 is 2, meaning - when I press 1R, turn it ON AND turn OFF port2(1G)
Conversely the port 2(1G) CV#137 value is 1, meaning - when I press 1G, turn it ON AND turn OFF port1(1R)
...
...
for port 8(4G) CV#143 the value is 64, meaning - when I press 4G, turn it ON AND turn OFF port7(4R)

UserPostedImage

So now we have a feature - how might it be used?
One thought that comes to mind is within a fiddle yard, with 8 roads, each with a dead section. It is possible to set up the m84 so that a single button press would liven the relevant dead section AND make the other 7 dead/safe.
For example yard #4 (= 2G) uses CV#139 to determine the followup action. By setting this CV to a value of 247 ( 1(1)+2(2)+4(3)+16(5)+32(6)+64(7)+128(8) ) , the other 7 yards will be made safe.

An extension to this, is another feature of the m84 port that allows for a pulse, or minimum on time (mode 17). In the above scenario, by qualifying the port with a time for 10 seconds, the appropriate yard could be livened up long enough for a train to exit and then automatically return to a safe state.

As with other distributive processing, there is no feedback to the controller for it to display the actual state of the items ports correctly!

NOTEs:
- Refer to the m83 documentation for the CV No.s and the mode values, some do not work (Zoom/Mars) as they have no meaning for a on/off relay, however the blinks and flashes do.
- A qualification on the m83 documentation is that the period multiplier for the m84 is one-second (not 0.05 of a second) - thus a value of 1 means 1 second.


What can you imagine doing with these features on your layout?

Edited by user 27 February 2014 23:23:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline steventrain  
#77 Posted : 04 March 2014 20:15:47(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 32,685
Location: Northern Ireland
Programmes M84 with Control unit 6021.


http://mediencms.maerkli...Programmierung%20M84.pdf
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline clapcott  
#78 Posted : 05 March 2014 04:42:58(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Programmes M84 with Control unit 6021.
http://mediencms.maerkli...Programmierung%20M84.pdf


I had been expecting some elaboration on this from Marklin, however I had hoped that it would be via an update to the original manuals (for both the m83 and m84) along with other needed clarification.

Sometimes Marklin have a story to tell but they are slow to recognize the fact that, not only will telling it display their prowess but it will reduce, if not eliminate, confusion.

So for those that are still asking the WHYs, here is some of my personal observations

Why M84 only? and not the M83
Firstly, the process in the document is the same for the m83 as for the m84!

IMHO, the reason for the specific m84 focus has to be related to the belated awareness that ...
a) the M84 Hobby signal ports were (mistakenly?) set to OFF by default and
b) that the CV# table for the M84 does not include reference to CV#38

Why is the 6021 process for these M8x units different from the Loco decoder process
I will go out on a limb here and give credit to Marklin for finding a POM (equivalent) mechanism that allows for the configuration of an individual M8x unit without having to un-wire all other units from the layout.
(Note: the DCC POM option/capability for the M8x has yet to be seen on Marklins CS2/MS2 so in fact this MM capability is ahead of the competition)

The FIRST important difference between the traditional 6021->LocoDecoder programming and the new document is step 3
3. Press a button on the Keyboard for the output to be changed (example: 1).
By adding the need to activate an address on the target unit - the configuration process will be started on that unit ONLY

My observations are thus...
This step does not need to be at step 3 as shown. I had worked out that performing it between step 1 and 2 was more convenient.
After further observation it appears that the last (MM accessory command) address will be used - even if that command was sent prior to the last power off.

So, the M8x units must be CONSTANTLY listening for any address and if it sees one of its own then, in addition to performing the required operation, it will prime itself just in case, sometime in the future a programming sequence comes along. If the unit detects an address that is not one of its own it will defuse the primed state and ignore any future attempt to enter the programming mode.

The SECOND important difference is with the closing steps - especially step 15
15. Press a button on the Keyboard for the output to be changed (example: 1).
Normally (on a decoder reconfigure) pressing the stop key (step 14) will end the process and drop the decoder out of programming mode. With the M8x devices it is important to "finalize" the process by performing this step - untill you do so the M8x will stay primed for programming.

The ramification of not doing this finalization step becomes clear if you are in the process of configuring multiple devices.
For example, if I had completed configuring module 1(1-4) up to step 14 and now wanted to do module 2(5-7) I would start the second units process by entering an address (for example 5) and then continue with the 6021 reset - entering the "80" and pressing reverse while pressing go.
HERES THE RUB - because I had not completed step 15 and tested one of the addresses (1-4), module 1 still thinks it is in programming mode and will respond, along with module 2, by entering the slow flash stage - awaiting a CV number.

As I mentioned above - this can even be observed after an extended power off - something in the M8x unit remembers that it is in programming state.

But WHY - I hear you cry ?
This is speculation ... but here goes ...
Because the 6021-Register programming sequence incorporates a couple of Power Off/ON cycles AND we want to select a specific module by the last used address, there is a need to retain the state within the m8x unit - at least for a short time. But of course if you retain a state across a power off/on, you have to provide a mechanism to reset that state. The designed way to do this is by activating one of its recognized addressed as soon as possible after you power off and power back on.


Peripheral comments
Because the 6021-Register programming sequence uses power off/on's, having an external power supply totally negates this and therefore programming can not be done with one connected. (THOUGHT! - maybe something for the 60822 to do?)

Not mentioned in the new document (but mentioned in the other 6021 programming document http://mediencms.maerkli...ogrammieren_mit_6021.pdf ) is the reminder that the 6021 does not like "00" so in order to enter a "0" value for a CV you make use of "80"

Just in case there are some newbies out there with regard to 6021 programing, when marklin say ...
1. Press the “Stop” and “Go” at the same time until “99” blinks in the display
This means press and hold the "Stop" and "Go" UNTIL THE DISPLAY GOES BLANK.
AFTER you release the keys , you will observe the "99" blink in the display.

The steps 6 and 9 references "the diode"
6. The diode on the M84 will blink ...
9. The diode .....

This "diode" is actually the pair of LEDs adjacent to the Red and Brown command wire terminals. When in programming mode they will both blink in unison.

The reference to "blink slowly" and "blink rapidly" are legacy terms and while representative in their description are wrong.
For the M8x units the slow blink (approximately once per second). the rapid blink is actually a "double blink" over the same period


.......................___________ UserPostedImage
|_____________________|...........| Blink

.......................___.....___ UserPostedImage
|_____________________|...|___|...| DoubleBlink

Edited by user 09 March 2014 21:54:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#79 Posted : 12 March 2014 22:31:22(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
CS2 update is available with the ability to program the M8* devices with POM (DCC only)
Included with the CS2 update files is a MS2 update (to v2.1) - I have not found any indication that an Accessory POM feature is included

Some observations (of CS2 tool)
- updates can be seen to take effect immediately - recommend having the function ON when you enter CV mode in order to see them (helpful if you are "playing" to find a nice blink rate)
- the only indication of an update is the right led (by brown dot) pulsing on for marginally longer than a normal "command blink".
- the graphic for the switch block now shows the correct values based on the decoder type
- - Old Multidecoder = k83/k84 6083(0)/6084(0) : 8 pos 2pos/3state
- - New Multidecoder = m83/m84 60831/60841 : 10 pos binary
- - Old Inst. decoder = 74460 : combo 8 pos 2pos/3state PLUS 2 pos binary
- - New Inst. decoder = 74461/5 : 10 pos binary

- help files in English do not exist
- when editing a keyboard accessory, there is no (helpful) reference to m83,m84,60831,60841 - the catch all term is "New multifunction decoder"
- The POM implementation does not allow for reading CVs - only writing
- There is no screen indication of a POM write failure (e.g. device not plugged in or wrong address)
- no help in the tool for MM programming.
- reverse lookup of switch block settings not available (as a tool)

No sign of any ability to update the code on the m83/m84
Outstanding issues
- address CV#1 can be overwritten when a hard address is set in the switch block
- feature to allow individual ports to turn on or off specifically - not just toggle
- POM read
Peter
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#80 Posted : 19 April 2014 20:08:28(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
the "requirement" (as documented) for a 60822 and its function/capabilities are still an unknown, as the product is not available yet

The April / May issue of Märklin Magazin (on pg. 21 first column) states that:

"The decoder can also be fed from a separate switched-mode power pack 66361. In addition to this power pack, a suppressor unit 60822 would be required. Important: Without the use of this extra unit, compliance with the regulations on electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) cannot be guarantied. Please therefore never fail to use this electronic unit."

It then states that further information will be available in one of the next issues of the magazine.

I would guess this means that you can use it without the 60822 - on your own "risk"?
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#81 Posted : 19 April 2014 22:24:52(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
It's in the product database now.

60882
UserPostedImage
Offline clapcott  
#82 Posted : 19 April 2014 23:42:58(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
It's in the product database now.

60882


I think you mean ..
60822
These 6088x enhancements? are another storm in the making, but I suggest they should have their own thread
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#83 Posted : 19 April 2014 23:52:19(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
the "requirement" (as documented) for a 60822 and its function/capabilities are still an unknown, as the product is not available yet

The April / May issue of Märklin Magazin (on pg. 21 first column) states that:

"The decoder can also be fed from a separate switched-mode power pack 66361. In addition to this power pack, a suppressor unit 60822 would be required. Important: Without the use of this extra unit, compliance with the regulations on electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) cannot be guarantied. Please therefore never fail to use this electronic unit."


I suggest that anyone reading the MM technical articles as though they are gospel should go see a psychiatrist

Occasionally they offer tidbits with a hint of some far off vision, but usually they contain inaccuracies that, unfortunately, call into question the integrity of the rest of the article. The verbose and waffly composition doesn't help the ease of reading - much less the uptake of what pertinent information may be hidden within.

As it relates to the 60821/60822/60831/60841 I am in two minds at to whether these articles have some recovery intent for poor product management and product development or if they are part of the conspiracy and are just seeding more misinformation.
Peter
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#84 Posted : 20 April 2014 07:10:20(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
I suggest that anyone reading the MM technical articles as though they are gospel should go see a psychiatrist,

You know, I was debating myself whether or not to update the thread with this information, simply because I was not sure how I might get punched in the face. Now I know. I do not think you are being very nice.

I think the article makes perfect sense when comparing to what else I know about the decoder and the 60822.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
Offline clapcott  
#85 Posted : 21 April 2014 00:09:51(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I do not think you are being very nice.

I wasn't trying to be nice.

IMHO Marklin are furnishing their customers with incomplete and mis-information, therefore those customers should know about it.
I have attempted to add perspective as experience provides it - I hope other will do the same so that we can all be better informed.
In too may instances the information has thrown up more questions than answers and I am still waiting.
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#86 Posted : 24 April 2014 01:16:12(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Purely for awareness of what Markllin is communicating about the m83/m84 (warts and all)

The series of m8x articles currently being run in the MM are available online (german only)

Art 1 http://medienpdb.maerkli...1_Digital_MM_2013_06.pdf
Art 2 http://medienpdb.maerkli...2_Digital_MM_2014_01.pdf
Art 3 http://medienpdb.maerkli...3_Digital_MM_2014_02.pdf

extrapolate as and when available
Peter
Offline andreasapo  
#87 Posted : 11 May 2014 16:04:40(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
I am trying to connect a C-turnout with motor 74491 to a M84, but I am not getting anything out of it.

Is it possible?
How should the wiring be?

Can I use it at the same time with the Hobby Signals?

Please help me, as this is driving me crazy and I can't move on with my project.


Thanks

Andrea
Offline Danlake  
#88 Posted : 12 May 2014 10:58:58(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,414
I have been trying to keep myself updated on this post, but I must admit that half of it I simply do not understand (could be a language barrier as I find some of the text difficult to understand)Blink

I do appreciate the effort and research being put into the topic.ThumpUp

However, for me the whole speculation of what the units may or may not do is making it confusing to read through.Scared

I would prefer a post of what I can do with it now and actually fault observed so far with these unitsBigGrin

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
User is suspended until 23/08/2019 10:37:50(UTC) Goofy  
#89 Posted : 12 May 2014 18:07:55(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,004
Originally Posted by: andreasapo Go to Quoted Post
I am trying to connect a C-turnout with motor 74491 to a M84, but I am not getting anything out of it.

Is it possible?
How should the wiring be?

Can I use it at the same time with the Hobby Signals?

Please help me, as this is driving me crazy and I can't move on with my project.


Thanks

Andrea


Motor 74491 is an switch magnet motor and you must use momentary contacts m83,not m84 which are permanent contacts.
If yours motor has been connect with m84,it´s possible that you have already burn out motor...
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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Offline andreasapo  
#90 Posted : 20 May 2014 20:26:46(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
Anyone has any idea on how to set the m84 so that input 1 would trigger both output 1r and 2r??

In other words, I have a contact track and I need to trigger 2 signals. One has to turn red and the other green, or viceversa...

Also pairing output 1 and 2 would do the job, but by setting CV#34 to 0 I don't get anything...


Please help me out here...
Offline andreasapo  
#91 Posted : 27 May 2014 22:42:21(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM

The m84 is actually a 8 port device with each port having individual capabilities.
It is actually an Additional Feature of the item that allows the the activation command of one port (e.g. 1Red) to cause a deactivation of an other(s) (i.e. 1Green)

The emphasis here is on "others" - note the plural , meaning none, one or more.
Note: to use a single port (toggle mode) - as well as changing the code for the port mode, you will also need to disable the turnoff mode of his mate

Within the CVs available, there is an additional CV for EACH of the eight ports that acts as MASK to indicate what additional devices to TURN OFF after you have turned on the primary port
The CV#s are #136 to #143 for ports 1(1Red) to 8(4Green) respectively.

The "bits" (named Right to Left for human convenience) of the value for the mask are weighted as such
- bit 1 = 1 = port 1 (1R)
- bit 2 = 2 = port 2 (1G)
- bit 3 = 4 = port 3 (2R)
- bit 4 = 8 = port 4 (2G)
- bit 5 = 16 = port 5 (3R
- bit 6 = 32 = port 6 (3G)
- bit 7 = 64 = port 7 (4R)
- bit 8 = 128 = port 8 (4G)

Thus , the factory default for port 1(1R) CV#136 is 2, meaning - when I press 1R, turn it ON AND turn OFF port2(1G)
Conversely the port 2(1G) CV#137 value is 1, meaning - when I press 1G, turn it ON AND turn OFF port1(1R)
...
...
for port 8(4G) CV#143 the value is 64, meaning - when I press 4G, turn it ON AND turn OFF port7(4R)

UserPostedImage

So now we have a feature - how might it be used?
One thought that comes to mind is within a fiddle yard, with 8 roads, each with a dead section. It is possible to set up the m84 so that a single button press would liven the relevant dead section AND make the other 7 dead/safe.
For example yard #4 (= 2G) uses CV#139 to determine the followup action. By setting this CV to a value of 247 ( 1(1)+2(2)+4(3)+16(5)+32(6)+64(7)+128(8) ) , the other 7 yards will be made safe.

An extension to this, is another feature of the m84 port that allows for a pulse, or minimum on time (mode 17). In the above scenario, by qualifying the port with a time for 10 seconds, the appropriate yard could be livened up long enough for a train to exit and then automatically return to a safe state.

As with other distributive processing, there is no feedback to the controller for it to display the actual state of the items ports correctly!

NOTEs:
- Refer to the m83 documentation for the CV No.s and the mode values, some do not work (Zoom/Mars) as they have no meaning for a on/off relay, however the blinks and flashes do.
- A qualification on the m83 documentation is that the period multiplier for the m84 is one-second (not 0.05 of a second) - thus a value of 1 means 1 second.


What can you imagine doing with these features on your layout?



Hello,

Is there also a Turn On mask? From entry one can I turn on 1R and 2R for example? Where did you find all these data?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Andrea


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Offline clapcott  
#92 Posted : 24 August 2014 03:46:39(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: andreasapo Go to Quoted Post

... Is there also a Turn On mask? From entry one can I turn on 1R and 2R for example? Where did you find all these data?

Andrea


Hi Andrea,

I am unaware of a "Turn On Mask"

The data about the "Turn Off mask" is from the MagCV file for the 60841 that came with the CS2 update at the beginning of the year.


p.s. If you are quoting someone elses post, please leave the quote tags in place

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#93 Posted : 24 August 2014 04:16:10(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
FYI, Catchup update.

1) For those who downloaded an original 60841 manual, you may be interested in doing a refresh.
The 60841 manual currently available has a date code pf 0814 and includes an added page and bit of data ...
- CV38 is documented
- New page (English pg 14)
- - elaboration on Hobby connection and reference to CV 38
- - schematic for the use of the external trigger ports.

note/comment
- as shown on page 14, the Circuit track implies a return circuit through the rail.
Be aware, therefore, that if the m84 is receiving its digital from a separate booster/system the Browns/Rail must be commoned (if the boosters allow this)

2) 60821/60822 were expected for delivery by the end of July, however the Aug update to a delivery schedule pushes their availability to Q4/2014

3) The CS2 "mouse piano" , in the keyboard setup/configuration panel, for the m83/m84 is still wrong (it shows the same as for a 74461/5)
Peter
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Offline river6109  
#94 Posted : 24 August 2014 04:22:40(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,498
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Peter, for some one not completely familiar with all the settings could the instructions be confusing, especially following instructions ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline clapcott  
#95 Posted : 24 August 2014 04:28:36(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Workaround instructions removed - refer to user manual instead of CS2
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#96 Posted : 19 September 2014 21:49:47(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
60821 now shipping

Name of product = Motor Control

Comments:
Purpose? When compared to a k84/m84 = unclear

The default port mode for a m83 is 18 , which results in a pulse to the solinoid (signal/turnout)
m83 port mode set to 17 is for "Minimum Switch Time" - allowing for running for a "longer" time but not continuous
Question: is mode=129 (continuous on) supported ??

There is no "max current per m83" specification available. This (500mA per portpair) implies a capacity of 2 Amps
But this ties in with a 66361/5 36VA (=2 Amps) so only one m83/m84 can be used in a chain.

No specification (other than Max=500mA) is given for the motor to be used. As Marklin do not have a motor to compare with some measurements are needed.

==========================================================================
ref
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60821_betrieb.pdf

Connections for Motor Control and Required Settings
The motor control is connected to the terminal clips for turnouts on the m83 decoder. Maximum load for motor control is 500 milliamps.
The required CV settings for operation can only be adjusted in the DCC mode. When doing this bear in mind the operating instructions for the m83 decoder (Pages 20-21). The settings remain preserved and in effect in MM/fx.

UserPostedImage

CV-Settings: min - max
Switching Function Turnout, red = Value 17
Pulse Width (Regulating speed) = Value 1 -255
Period (Regulating time) = Value 50 - 200
Switching Function Turnout, green = Value 17
Pulse Width (Regulating speed) = Value 1 -255
Period (Regulating time) = Value 50 - 200
The CVs arrange themselves according to the turnout connections to which the motor control is connected. The rotational direction of the motor can be adapted by swapping the wires at the terminal clips for the motor control
Peter
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline clapcott  
#97 Posted : 19 September 2014 22:00:45(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
FYI, Catchup update.
3) The CS2 "mouse piano" , in the keyboard setup/configuration panel, for the m83/m84 is still wrong (it shows the same as for a 74461/5)


This has been addresses with CS2 v3.7

Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline NewMB  
#98 Posted : 21 September 2014 09:57:42(UTC)
NewMB

Germany   
Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 668
Location: Erftstadt
I have just received the 60831 m83 Decoder (well, 2 weeks ago). Anyone wants to see some pics and/or some details from the instructions, please let me know. Would be happy to help.
User is suspended until 23/08/2019 10:37:50(UTC) Goofy  
#99 Posted : 21 September 2014 10:22:25(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,004
Originally Posted by: NewMB Go to Quoted Post
I have just received the 60831 m83 Decoder (well, 2 weeks ago). Anyone wants to see some pics and/or some details from the instructions, please let me know. Would be happy to help.


It´s very nice of you...but we do already have pictures and supports togehter with info here.

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline clapcott  
#100 Posted : 03 October 2014 12:10:02(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,224
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
UserPostedImage
(above image) Full BoM of 60821 product item as delivered
- 1 x ziplock plastic bag with lable
- - ziplock not sealed
- - Contents noted as "4 x 197537 Turnout motor front end circuit board"
- - (at the time of writing, this "single item" was not available on the "Marklin Shop" as an item or spare part)
- 4 x "Turnout motor front end circuit boards"
- - note: the third item shown, had its heat shrink removed after delivery.
- 1 x Instructions (as per downloadable) p/n 197540 with date code 0514
- 1 x Warranty Card - 608067 with date code 0413

UserPostedImage
(above image) Closeup of a single circuit board with "protective heat shrink removed"

UserPostedImage
(above image) Perspective image showing 4 of the circuit board installed/connected to a m83 (60831)

Edited by user 10 October 2014 21:50:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by clapcott
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