The worst decoder I've ever had for sensitivity was a Lokpilot 2.0 (non mfx). No probs with mfx decoders, 6090x decoders, or fx decoders in other locos. Oh, and no probs with the one Roco loco I have. All on M Track.

5 pole motors are definitely the noisiest. Large and Compact C-Sine are very quiet.

That's my experience.

Thankyou, Mr Hemmerich for all the info on current Marklin products. As the obvious company rep on this forum, you provide a needed service for us, the customers, and do straighten out a lot of miscomceptions we have from time to time. Your discussions on the CS and MFX are particularly noteworthy and leaves us to believe that issues with those systems are being taken care of. If that is so, then there will be a time in the not too distant future, hopefully, when I will forsake my trusted 6021 and go with a CS or whatever is the equivalent system at that time. In the meantime, continue to keep us informed, I'll keep watching, and thanks again. Regards, Bob

Unlike the title suggests I think this topic isn't only about Märklin Systems but has evolved in a discussion about pros and cons of Märklins latest technical developments in general.
The way I look at it, is that there are two distinct subjects of critique/or may I call it doubt:

-Märklin Systems-:
Although I've had only a limited amount of hands on experience with Märklin Systems I strongly believe in its concept.
That said I fully understand other members disappointment or frustration that until now Märklin hasn't been able to deliver the complete system as they intended some time ago.
However this doesn't mean that Märklin System has no potential. On the contrary I think, like Lutz already suggested above, that it has a lot of exiting possibilities all put into one controller. With its mfx capability not having to remember a loco's adress is- although probably a minor aspect- one of the features I like. Having everything in one box is also a nice feature I think. Being able to control more CV's than with a CU is another one.


-Secondly Märklins new SDS motor and design in general-:

Production methods and possibilities change over time and this could also mean that we have to part with the old trusted and admittedly still excellent old way locomotives were build.
Newer methods and nice new propulsion techniques will inevitably replace old concepts as has been the case for years.
The old C-sine motor has, due to its construction and its application in the old models an inherent quality excellently described already by Alberto.
However I think also here modern techniques and sophisticated electronics have made the new SDS to an impressive achievement. BTW ,also the SDS motor is aided by a flywheel in most of the locos I know,although admittedly, because of the different principle in gearing-worm gear in most locs- it doesn't compare to the way applied in the old C-sine locs.
Let a new SDS equipped loco with the latest electronics run along your track and I think you'll all agree that the newest locos have impressive driving characteristics which are comparable with,or even surpass those of an old C-sine loc.

Newer production methods also have made it possible to produce more detailed models,which I like very much. Although the old models have that very special quality and are in general more user friendly in maintenance,they are also symbols of the past,of Märklins history.

That said I realise I've put myself at risk of being accused of having a biased opinion of Märklin.
Just can't help being a Märklin enthusiast!

To be honest, of course I realise there are areas of improvement.In hindsight I think it would have been better if Märklin had issued their new Märklin Systems as a total concept in one big move, probably best after it had matured somewhat more in their design labs.

Kind regards
Guus

The main reason I feel for Marklin systems being a flop was at the start with the Mobile Station. One only has to look through the posts at that time to see the number of faulty units being returned in many cases more than once. That along with the delay in a booster and other bits and pieces was only possible because this is a toy company and is not taken seriously as a provider of anything of any value other than for entertainment and children (including of course us older boys)
Looking at the experienced modellers on this forum most appear to use IB or ECOS and although I have not used these it does appear that they can do more than the CS.
I agree with much of Guus comments and of course as he says he is a Marklin fan and although i enjoy using Marklins toys if they were not there I would be happy with HAG or Brawa and my main miss from M would be C track.
My own CS is fine at present for me and my original MS still works as well as it has done for the past 3 or 4 years. I have only ever had one faulty loco so have no complaints there either.
However one must take into account the views of others (where they are not biased) and this is why Marklin is a loss making business as too many products have not matched their previous excellent standard.
Although this is the best Model rail forum on the net it does not mean for me that I think Marklin is wonderful as other manufacturers have now more than matched their quality.
Marklins owners are aware that their Systems have cost them a considerable amount in time and cash having to upgrade old CS for free and having to replace MS controllers. With German dealers like Lokshop,Kramm etc who a lot of us buy from in Germany not having any CS controllers in stock this year and no new mega start sets available then it is obvious why until now systems has not been as successful as it should have been.
The above hopefully is now in the past and with the winter season approaching when M would hope to increase sales I expect that the CS and a booster will be available as any more years of loss making and our favourite model maker will no longer be with us in its present form.

Can I ask that this discussion which was going along in a pleasant manner stays that way and the usual propblems do not surface again. The thread belongs to John Black and as far as I am aware pictures marked copyright are not welcome and should be posted in another thread. This way pics posted here can be used without any silly problems.

David

I must admit Lutz, that I haven't opened the Roco loco to see what's inside it. It is the 69685 BR182 Taurus in DB red colours. All my other Marklin locos are pretty good sensitivity wise (and other wise too). I have one 60901, several 60760, half a dozen or so locos with mfx decoders, and quite a few older locos with their factory fitted decoders, including a 39560 Crocodile with large C-Sine motor (boy do I love that loco!).

Right, Sir - we got no use for copyright stuff we can't refer to [xx(]
And especially not for pics on ugly guys [xx(] (<u>we</u> prefer ladies ... )
Thus according to our topic copyright they 're to remove.

I am completely mistified by the percieved problems with the new systems. I really like the CS and new locomotives / accessories.

I muuuuuch prefer CS and MS to anything to do with 6021. intellibox. FRom reading mnay posts I have come to the conclusion that many people who are having problems with CS/MS are probably the same people who cannot program their VCR to record and playback shows. Then the whine and complain about the product.

I am very happy with the new items and models that Marklin is offering.

Am I disappointed with a few items - sure, but Marklin has hit some very nice "Home Runs" for sure.

Well said David (NZ) Amazing how after one post another topic heads south.

Johns topic is that M Systems is a flop.

Complete disaster with the original MS
Still no booster three years on
CS to be sent back to M to be upgraded.
No stock available.
Costly for M for upgrades and replacements of MS

Thus can only be a flop. BUT

These items are made by ESU so it is not all Ms fault if their supplier is poor.
My own MS and CS are fine and I have had no faults with either so from my own point of view I have no complaints


BUT this does not mean that the product is successful as it clearly is not by the number of people on this forum who have had faulty goods and will not buy the CS because there is no booster.

Just because if you are at sea and your boat is not sinking when most of the others are does not mean that the boats are great ... or like two people here you dont care who drowns as long as it is not you

As for the new motor the two locos that I own fitted with the soft sine are excellent.

David

PS pleased to see somebody called Sierra is setting up his own forum with Lutz which I trust will be copyright and means we can carry on with our discussion in peace

Some bickering aside , this has been a really interesting topic.

My opinion;
Marklin Systems is not perfect (to be honest, every system will have their own bugs) and some implementation issues could have been better. But as to whether Marklin's idea to expand the capabilities of their system had been in the right direction, I completely agree. I do prefer the features of current System as opposed to limitations of the old digital systems (6021, etc.)

I guess it's like comparing with older version of Windows to newer one. (I still prefer Windows 98 in some aspects, but I have to admit the newer XP is far more stable). Newer system with their technologically more advanced features often came at a cost of a few problems / bugs that was not used to be an issue with the old one. For example, when you already have a crowd of locos on your layout, a new mFX loco might not choose to auto-detect, unless it was put on a programming track.

Some other inconvenience that I note, is that setting up older 6090x locos in the CS is actually way quicker than waiting for an mFX loco to auto-detect (up to 2 minutes). But then again, on the track, there is no denying that MFX locos have the more superior driving characteristics (as far as my experience goes), 6090x locos could not hope to match the acceleration / decelaration smoothness, and speed steps flexibility of mFX.

Then we also got issue with the strength of mFX signals vs the size of layout, which is of course, not necessarily a problem for the old 6090x.

As for locomotives, of course, everyone here would testify as well that the new SDS locos are completely superior in terms of driving characteristics and smoothness, to anything Marklin had offered prior.

My only wish is that rather than offering too many locos with some limited sound functions (horn only), I think Marklin should allow customer to choose between similar models with full sound functions AND ones with no sound function at all which will save customers a few more bucks compared to 'horn only' models.

Tim

THey should follow HAG, they Offer AC Digital sound and Non Sound of all models as well as DC Anologue , DCC with and Without Sound.

Nev

Interesting comments.
Like 39010 v 39015 for example.
Good arguments here, I can see the benefit of cost-savings plus there are those who want no sound period!
I wonder how many would like just a horn sound? I can't imagine many as if you are going to have a speaker then yoju may as well have the works. Yes?

To be honest though, I am neutral.
I have most of mine sound-equipped but I do not expound this to be the be-all and end-all for everyone.

Macca, the ESU EcosBoost is your pick if you require mfx detection in your boosted sections (see the separate forum thread on the EcosBoost), or if you are happy to be without mfx detection on your boosted sections, then the 6015/6017 boosters can be used with the CS.

Macca, the EcosBoost is capable of sending the mfx registration data to the CS. That is, if you put a mfx equiped loco on a section of track controlled by the EcosBoost, the EcosBoost will feed the mfx details of the loco to the CS, just the same as if you put a mfx loco on a track section controlled directly by the CS (or MS for that matter). So no, it is not dependant on whether the loco has sound or not - there are mfx locos equiped with sound, and there are mfx locos that do not have sound.

The older 6017/6015 boosters however do not support the 2 way communications between a mfx loco and CS, so they will act as they would if they were connected to a 6021 controller, i.e. you can control the loco, but the loco will never send its registration details to the CS.

Good posts and glad we are back to where we were.

Tony what is the Mega set you have on order. I was not aware of any new ones available but if the locos are what I want then I may also order.

David

Hello everybody!


If the booster support mfx feedback than you can put a new loco on the track wherever you like - and it will register itself; and any mfx loco can be programmed anywhere on the track.
(That's only theory coz I don't have boosters with feedback.)

If the booster doesn't support mfx feedback, then you can register new locos only on tracks powered directly by the CS; this also applies to changing settings of mfx locos.
You cannot enter the settings dialogue for locos on the booster sections - and it can take several minutes after the loco returned to a CS powered section until settings are accessible again (seldomly you even have to remove the loco from the CS database to have it re-registered to gain access to the settings).
(That's my own experience with my 66045 "boosters".)

With or without feedback: the loco runs on mfx protocol with up to 16 functions and up to 126 speed steps (so far I've seen 128 speed steps only for DCC locos).

Frostie, I haven't seen a VCR in years and many stores don't even sell them these days. By the way, when I still had a VCR, I did program it without help of any kind. Amazing isn't it. And I don't even own a CS and still use that antiquated 6021 controller. Glad your CS works so well but your experience doesn't seem to be universal. You could be right, however. It's encouraging and I'm sure M will work it all out. Regards, Bob

John, you don't own this forum - I do... Everyone has the right to express their view, even if you may feel offended...

Am I clear enough?

David, If I know Macca well enough, it will be the 29840 set with the BR55 and BR85 locos. He has wanted one of these for some time, and was rather jealous when I told him our club had just received one!! [:p][:p]

BTW, Dale, while being rather blunt, is absolutely right in his points, there is not much the CS does that you can't do with a good piece of software and an Intellibox, or maybe even a 6021/6051 combination. However, for me, the CS (in its fully upgraded state) gave me dual control, touch panel screen, mfx, ethernet interface, and capabilities equal to the Intellibox (other than no support for DCC). At the time I was looking to buy a controller, I was tossing up between the Intellibox and the CS. Possibly, if I had already had an Intellibox, I would most likely have not worried about the CS, which I think seems to be the general reaction of those who have Intelliboxes. All in all I'm happy with the CS as it is, although the ability to have a slave CS unit would be great (for remote secondary control on a large layout).

Maybe these and other features will appear in the new controller rumored to be under development by Marklin, along with a new 'mfx2' protocol, new decoders (as I mentioned previously). I guess all will be revealed in 3 - 5 years time.

David, there is talk of an Intellibox II, in fact you can see a picture of it on Uhlenbrock's web site:-

http://www.uhlenbrock.de...www/3/6/I78F9D0B-001.htm!ArcEntryInfo=0007.0.I78F9D0B&NewServerName=DAVID-IHS

Yes, people certainly seem to have confused themselves here. The mfx protocol is a track protocol. It does not have anything to do with the CS PC protocol other than the fact that both can be handled by the same device, the CS.

As you point out, the CS is just a Linux based computer. Märklin may have missed a huge opportunity by neglecting the potential with this. There are lots of skilled programmers in the Linux community, and more than few of them are prepared to work for free if they find the task interesting enough. With a little bit less closed attitude from Märklin, a lot more could have happened in much shorter time.

I fully agree!!

huh ? there is no rfid and mfx does not indicate position (which is teh most critical part of feedback). I cannot even parse your sentence. What are you trying to ask ?

I was under the impression, not being an electronics engineer, that any component that can recieve a signal, and send one back to the host, is RFID. Am I wrong? They exhist in retail bar code skews now. UPS uses them. A package can be tracked it's entire journey. Radio frequency identification. It sounds like the same technology to me.

Dale I understand your point re a computer screen I have three computers here(for business) and I just want a model rail controller with a screen similar to the size of the CS but with decent colour and graphics. The Commander looks like an improvement but the manufacturer is not known for producing items on time (bit like M and the CS i suppose)

My main problem with the IB is nobody seems to sell them in the UK and I do not know of anybody that has one locally that I could see so I would be buying blind. However as you say the interface and the choice of decoders etc does appear to be a plus point. Also anybody who owns an IB seems to really like it and nobody has considered it to be a flop as with M systems. So I will keep an eye on Uhlenbrock.

John : Gee my man just opened 32 emails supporting your views ... did you send them all yourself Anyway as you say all hail Juhan and the guy that wants to open his own forum. One thing I will say for Lutz he does at least talk about the topic and give a view... if it could be just be put in a more reasonable manner then we could have an interesting discussion.... meanwhile how are the plans for the grandkids layout.

David

The CS has plenty of power for that, one thing you can do is use a Delta control as a booster just for the turnouts and signals, there are plenty of topics around telling you how to do it.