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john black		#1 Posted : 26 June 2008 14:47:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		In 2005 M released their new booster #60172. Nice - but they never delivered. <u>Since 3 years now</u> [|)] I'm waiting for that thing to build our Grandkids' big layout ... If those amateurs aren't even able to make a simple booster they better go out of the electronics business. And let the professionals do the job They better get their a**es up to the attic, fetch some of the classic molds and make locos & cars the good old way. Which we will gladly buy [:p] (that cheapo china-junk of today we can get at every corner) Couldn't care less (sic!) if that controller reads M, KENWOOD, SONY or whatever ... It must be available - and it must work perfectly [^] So besides all the MFX-trouble - for many "New Systems" is M's biggest flop, ever [xx(][xx(][xx(] Wouldn't surprise me if they replace it ...
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Bigdaddynz		#2 Posted : 26 June 2008 14:57:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,764 Location: New Zealand		John, I think the Systems concept is good, but I think the implementation from Marklin has been very muddled, to say the least. Now we hear rumors of MFX v2, when v1 has not yet been fully implemented. The on again off again relationship with ESU does not help, with things apparently going sour once again. I think Clapcott also ordered a 60172 3 years ago and like you is still waiting. Just as well you didn't try to hold your breath, you'd be dead by now!! It is good that ESU has produced the Ecosboost, which supports MFX, and by reports elsewhere on this forum, seems to work if you wire it up correctly. Still, it would be good to see Marklin sort themselves and this mess out asap, it cannot be helping their business.
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spitzenklasse		#3 Posted : 26 June 2008 15:47:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,573 Location: ,		I agree John! If it isn't broken, then don't fix it!
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steventrain		#4 Posted : 26 June 2008 16:23:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,686 Location: United Kingdom		Marklin said the 60172 will delivery from October 2008.
		Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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H0		#5 Posted : 26 June 2008 17:06:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,437 Location: DE-NW		John, I think the main goal of mfx is to establish a new proprietary protocol. If anyone can do that, a market leader can. IBM tried that with MCA - and IBM produces no more PCs now ... OS/2 also comes to mind ... mfx decoders are more expensive and less reliable than DCC decoders.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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john black		#6 Posted : 26 June 2008 17:57:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black <br />They better get their a**es up to the attic, fetch some of the classic molds and make locos & cars the good old way. Which we will gladly buy [:p] (that cheapo china-junk of today we can get at every corner) Did they really think middle-aged ladies & gentlemen with a good income will buy this [}:)] This newfandangled stuff with its tiny motors and plastic toothpicks is o.k. for kids But then they rather prefer computer games nowadays ... [xx(] Missing the flair and craftmanship such toys are available from a myriad of brands too. With this alone new M will never make the big cash ... But with an additional Classic Line M (again) can sell premium stuff to the adult collectors. Just look at DICKIE-SIMBA GROUP and their highly successful revival of CLASSIC SCHUCO [:p] Since <u>we</u> are the ones with the money. If they want it go back to MARKLIN's roots Well, looking at M's product line a clear missing of historic values is observed ... So for better understanding <u>that's</u> what the real McCoy looks, feels and runs like Lots of the pictures are masterpieces [:p] by The Great Almagik (Al loves this forum and makes no mumbo-jumbo about their use)
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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rschaffr		#7 Posted : 26 June 2008 18:15:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Nice stuff, John. I have a few of those too (plus a number of other oldies but goodies). However some of the premium new stiff is good, too. I love my Insider 01 from last year and the VT08, among some others. As to mfx, for those who want "plug and play" (even some more mature players) it is a good idea, however as you stated Marklin's implementation of the idea has been poor. The things I don't like about it is the lackadaisically way it has been rolled out and the fact that it is a closed system.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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john black		#8 Posted : 26 June 2008 18:24:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		You're right, Ron ... And as David Dewar had stated (many moons back way before me) - controllers aren't exactly their goal. They better lay emphasis on their core business !
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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john black		#9 Posted : 26 June 2008 18:29:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by h-zero <br />John ... mfx decoders are more expensive and less reliable than DCC decoders I see, Tom - thanks. And somehow I have the feeling the old FX-decoders are way more reliable than the new MFX-ones. At least mine are ... [:I]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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David Dewar		#10 Posted : 26 June 2008 18:32:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,450 Location: Scotland		Hi John. I agree that systems has proved to be very badly handled by M. One thing I would say though as it is built by ESU then a lot of the blame must go to them. I cant understand why M are tied into this relationship in particular when ECOS appeared which is in competition to the CS. There must be an electronics firm who can produce a simple thing as a Model Rail controller and a booster which is reliable and available at a resonable cost. I still use my orignal CS which is not upgraded and has not given me any problems but it is pretty basic and as I only run two or three locos at a time i dont need a booster. I have however a plan for a new layout in 2009 and at this time i will have to look at what is available at that time. MFX does not really bother me as after I put a new loco on the layout it doesnt seem to do anything for me which makes me wonder why I am paying so much for it. At present it appears pointless to me but others do seem to like it. Where I might disagree with you would be on the new small motor. I have found the newest soft c sine to be good for running qualities and being small it is easier to fit bigger speakers in the loco if you like sound. It does have the disadvantage that I cant do much in the way of servicing which i used to think as being part of the hobby but again i suppose many others would not want to do this anyway. Anytime I get a new loco I have this great desire to open it up and make it run better does not always heppen of course but it is part of the fun for me. So I agree with your comments with the reservation about the new motor but then we all know how bad the second c sine was so M had to come up with something acceptable. Who knows maybe we will get Toshiba or somebody to make us a decent controller at a fair price. David
		Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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john black		#11 Posted : 26 June 2008 18:44:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Hi David, allow me to agree with your disagreement Seriously, you're right with the 3rd-generation C-Sinus motor [^] It runs nicely and is perfectly suited for small- to medium-size locos [:p] But there's no excuse for deleting their best motor ever, the big 1st-generation C-sinus It was just great for heavy Gators - and they scrapped it just for this MFX-thingy [xx(][xx(][xx(] And frankly - I still don't know with what device to control the Grankids' big layout ... [:I][:I][:I]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Guus		#12 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:01:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,616		Hi John, I agree that the old classic Märklin locos and tinplate coaches are excellent. However time goes on and with that production methods and possibilities. Just as great as the classic models are/were the newer models have their own quality,like far greater detail and their great new C-sine motors. And it's on that last part, that I respectfully disagree with you.My new locos with the small C-sine motors drive silk smooth on the track and can't be beaten with any of the older motors,with the possible exemption of the Maxxon motor,which by the way is also very small. As to Märklin Systems I keep a watchful eye on how it evolves and probably will buy it sometime in the near future.In the mean time my 6021 CU does all the controlling I need at the moment. Kind regards Guus
		Kind regards, Guus
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john black		#13 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:10:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Guus <br />And it's on that last part, that I respectfully disagree with you. Dear Guus - isn't it great we all have different experience and different opinions [:p] And we can discuss all this w/o the slightest trouble. Cos we do respect the other's opinion By saying new systems is a mega flop I may be right or wrong - won't matter at all. Since your item #xyz will run and mine not. Or vice-versa But I still don't know what booster for the Grandkids ... Perhaps I should go for another control system
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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rschaffr		#14 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:11:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Let me chime in on the Soft Drive Sinus motor. It appears to be a real winner. The loks I have with it are smooth, quiet, and reliable. Only time will tell if the reliability is long term (like the old LFCM's which will run forever). I, too, am waiting (still) to decide what controller I will get for my Grandson and for my next generation controller. For now he is happy with the MS and the IB on my Era IV-V layout and the 6021 on my Era III layout do all I need.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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David Dewar		#15 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:15:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,450 Location: Scotland		Hi John. Guus has a good point about the 6021. I still have mine and will not part with it. Is your grandkids layout going to be C track and if so you can give them some turnouts with the M turnout decoders under the ballast. When I use them I think they are great. No wiring to be done and if you go with a CS then it is good for the kids to control. I would think about building the layout with the CS in mind but use a 6021 until we are all sure that M systems are going in the right direction. I cant see M not continuing with Systems even if they have to change the manufacturer... if they did abandon it then they would lose me as a customer as I would not be buying a new controller from them. You could start a thread ' My Grandkids Layout' and keep us up to date with how it goes and I am sure you will get plenty of suggestions as you go along. David
		Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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john black		#16 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:20:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		OK, Gentlemen - you win. You've changed my view on the 3rd-generation C-Sinus motor But I won't give away a feet from my stand re plastic-toothpick drive and MFX ... David: Layout construction won't start before that controller thingy hasn't come clear Also won't invest into that ton of tracks before ... [}:)]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Guus		#17 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:29:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,616		originally posted by John: Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:But there's no excuse for deleting their best motor ever, the big 1st-generation C-sinus It was just great for heavy Gators - and they scrapped it just for this MFX-thingy The old big C-sine was a very clever development,which could replace the old style motor with comparatively easy adaption of the loco,probably with little or no milling of the already existing "gearboxes". The old style gear construction however is in my opinion a very labour intensive part of the loco. It wouldn't surprise me if Märklin chose to redesign their drive train to a set up that's more cost effective to produce. With that you'll also need another motor,also most probably an of the shelf product which further reduces costs. Although I regret the demise of the old C-sine motor just like you do, I think Märklin has succesfully found a worthy successor in the small C-sine motor. I have two Crocs one with the old style C-sine and the other with the new small c-sine motor. The only difference in the disadvantage of the new Croc is its lesser weight ~ 50 grams which make the wheels slip at an earlier point than with the old locomotive. There is still ample torque from the small motor!But for practical reasons this is of no concern. Just my two pennies.... Kind regards Guus post scriptum; John while I was typing my text you posted several answers already ( I'm getting old I guess),so here's a belated thank you for your reply.
		Kind regards, Guus
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john black		#18 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:36:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Guus <br />The old style gear construction however is in my opinion a very labour intensive part of the loco. And it's exactly this what makes the difference between a marklin loco and any other They also take away lotta cash from us for the new ones ... [}:)]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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rschaffr		#19 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:42:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		John: I prefer the old gear drives, too, but I am an old fossil and generally resist change. However, the cardan drive is quieter and allows for more realistic modeling of the cab and firebox on steamers since it takes up so much less space. I am concerned, however as to long term reliability of them. Mfx is another issue...I don't need it but I can see how many would like the feature.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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Guus		#20 Posted : 26 June 2008 19:46:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,616		originally posted by John: Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:And it's exactly this what makes the difference between a marklin loco and any other Point taken!To be honest that is exactly among others ,one of the qualities I like so much in HAG. Kind regards Guus
		Kind regards, Guus
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john black		#21 Posted : 26 June 2008 20:02:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by rschaffr <br />I prefer the old gear drives, too, but I am an old fossil and generally resist change. However, the cardan drive is quieter ... I am concerned, however as to long term reliability. Ron, that makes two old fossils [:p] Re plastic cardans - I just hate 'em. Made from trash but we pay a fortune for it [xx(] When it comes to reliability just ask David for his ROCO experience ...
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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john black		#22 Posted : 26 June 2008 20:04:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Guus <br />Point taken! To be honest that is exactly among others one of the qualities I like so much in HAG. And again I've to agree with you, my captain [^][^][^]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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dntower85		#23 Posted : 26 June 2008 20:25:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,218 Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA		I prefer the old motors as well. Even when I was a child of about 10 or 11, when I didn't know parts were available or where to get them, I was able to make my own motor brush from a larger peace of carbon. Now many many years later I don't have a clue as to how to carve a piece of sand into a C-cine motor controller circuit.
		DT Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
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john black		#24 Posted : 26 June 2008 20:46:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		- good one, Darrin! Serviceability is a factor not mentioned, yet. Especially in our modern times throw-away society [xx(] And still more when the supplier has an uncertain future ... We can only repeat - reviving M's Classic Line would certainly strengthen their back Again, SCHUCO is the very best example for this - they sell more than they can make !!! And it would cost 'em nothing at all (except for they had thrown away [:0] the old molds ...) No one shall say we'd only criticize. This great world forum does also deliver solutions ... [:p]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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biotechee		#25 Posted : 26 June 2008 21:23:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/12/2006(UTC) Posts: 338 Location: Doylestown, PA		I grew up on a bunch of M from the 50's- an ST800 was one which was handed down to me. That sucker runs and runs and sounds like a freakin' tank when it does. So be it. It is awesome! I have to agree with John about some things- especially the new electronics and focusing on your core. That said, I love a lot of the newer stuff. They run quietly and well, from what I can ascertain. Longevity? Well, who knows now? Regarding the plastic cardan shafts- they don't bother me because I believe one could fashion a suitable metal version- heck, if we have members here who can construct a bicycle from staples and such, surely metal replacement cardan shafts are a no brainer! What bothers me about the newer stuff is the gears. Plastic gears don't do well over time, especially when exposed to load during such time. I remember an old Tamiya RC car I had - The Boomerang - It had AWD via a metal shaft from the main motor case to a drive case up front. The issue with it was the main drive gear driven from the motor shaft gear. The motor shaft gear was metal and the main drive gear was plastic. Under hard running (load), the plastic gear would strip so quickly it wasn't even funny. If there had been a metal replacement (or if it had been metal from the start), I would not have had to spend $15 every other month to get a new bag of spares which included this stupid plastic gear! I guess from a business standpoint, they made a lot of money on spares!!! Bottom line, I would like to see the elimination of plastic gears altogether. I think that is the weakest link that would be hard to fix, electronics excluded. Just my humble opinion! Jim
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perz		#26 Posted : 26 June 2008 21:50:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		I don't think "Systems" is a "MEGA FLOP", but it is at least a disappointment. Some things are good with it, some things are bad or too limited. But the most annoying thing with it is its "proprietary" nature. Because it is "proprietary", the bad things will "infect" the good ones. I think mfx is a very good track protocol. But it does not help as long as the only available decoders are expensive and unreliable, and have some other flaws too. And it does not help that mfx is good as long as the only Control units that can send it have limitations that exclude them from use in many of the more demanding applications. It is not a law of nature that mfx decoders should be expensive, unreliable etc. It is maybe a law of Märklin or a law of ESU, but not a law of nature. DCC decoders are not cheaper because of the DCC protocol, but because there is competition.
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Davy		#27 Posted : 26 June 2008 22:03:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		The old motors from Marklin are going to disappear and I don't mind this at all. All other trainfrims makes motors which need little or no maintenace at all. That is the future. And systems is no disappoint what so ever. The only thing is that it is not complete yet and you don't have to buy the Marklin mfx booster you can buy the Esu version.
		M-track with a CS2.
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rschaffr		#28 Posted : 26 June 2008 22:13:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br />The old motors from Marklin are going to disappear and I don't mind this at all. All other trainfrims makes motors which need little or no maintenace at all. That is the future. And a sad one it is. We are abandoning rock sold reliable construction for cheaply made items that will maybe last a few years if we are lucky. i agree with John on this one. Bring back the heavy, reliable motor frames. Just because others are going cheap, doesn't mean Marklin should prostitute it's good name to follow. If they want to go to a shaft drive, Marklin could have designed a more robust one to increase relaiblity. Well, keep the SDS motor, but hook it up to a more robust transmission at least.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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john black		#29 Posted : 26 June 2008 22:36:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br />The only thing is that it is not complete yet and you don't have to buy the Marklin mfx booster you can buy the Esu version. That's one of the pillars of this topic - years later M's New Systems is far away from complete [xx(] And your "advice" for using an alien booster is cold comfort in case of a grilled CS M's warranty conditions state: "Warranty claims become null and void and no warranty or damage claims shall be accepted in those cases where parts neither manufactured nor approved by Marklin have been installed etc. ..."
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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rschaffr		#30 Posted : 26 June 2008 22:39:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Right on, John. We will have to see if the supposed October release date for the Marklin booster is met or just another broken promise.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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john black		#31 Posted : 26 June 2008 22:45:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by rschaffr <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br />That is the future. And a sad one it is. We are abandoning rock sold reliable construction for cheaply made items that will maybe last a few years if we are lucky. ... Ron, I can only agree with you.
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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perz		#32 Posted : 26 June 2008 23:49:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by rschaffr <br /> And a sad one it is. We are abandoning rock sold reliable construction for cheaply made items that will maybe last a few years if we are lucky. i agree with John on this one. Bring back the heavy, reliable motor frames. Just because others are going cheap, doesn't mean Marklin should prostitute it's good name to follow. If they want to go to a shaft drive, Marklin could have designed a more robust one to increase relaiblity. Well, keep the SDS motor, but hook it up to a more robust transmission at least. Is this statement based on reliability tests or other hard facts, or just on a "feeling" ? Honestly, I have no clue at all whether the new designs are good quality or just junk. Has anybody had any issues with broken gears yet? I am very interested in any qualified feedback about the durability of the new SDS loks compared to the old DCM ones, since I am responsible for running our "company layout" and I don't want to replace loks too often there.
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rschaffr		#33 Posted : 27 June 2008 00:00:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Perz: No, it is just an observation on the flimsy appearance of the device. Marklin made their name by designing robust systems that can take a lot of use and abuse. Would be interesting to see a reliability run on one of these new loks as Loxx did a few years ago.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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Bigdaddynz		#34 Posted : 27 June 2008 00:08:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,764 Location: New Zealand		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by h-zero <br />IBM tried that with MCA - and IBM produces no more PCs now ... OS/2 also comes to mind ... Yeah Maybe, but MCA and OS/2 were actually very good products. IBM just didn't know how to sell them properly. BTW we still have a couple of OS/2 machines at my work - OS/2 rules!!
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Webmaster		#35 Posted : 27 June 2008 00:42:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165		OS/2 rules indeed... Too bad it was commercially killed by MS, who spread a lot of dung about it (even if they made it from the start) while promising a "better OS real soon now" - which came in late '95 and was not as good as OS/2 at all... Ooops, off-topic - shame on me...
		Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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john black		#36 Posted : 27 June 2008 01:12:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Shame not at all, Sir - just stay where it's nice and friendly Especially our "bestest" webmaster of this galaxie has the right to enjoy a bit of freedom & relaxation
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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David Dewar		#37 Posted : 27 June 2008 01:13:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,450 Location: Scotland		Regarding cardan shafts I can only hope Ms dont go the way of Roco. I see no reason why they cannot be made to last and the cost of metal against plastic may be more but not that much for what is a fairy small but important item. I do have some hope for Marklin systems mainly because my CS has not given me any bother for the past three years and although i have a layout 18 feet by 8 feet I have not needed a booster. Mainly this is because the track design is simple and I can run three locos without any trouble. As I said I look to M giving me a booster for a new layout in 2009 and if they dont then I will look at other controllers. l liked the oily smell from the older Marklins and enjoyed cleaning the motors etc. Now i find i am more invloved in lighting coaches to provide flicker free with minimum noise from pickups and setting up level crossings, and the Faller fun fair and car system could provide a hobby all of its own. With increasing costs I am now much more selective in what I buy and despite the very high cost of HAG I have enjoyed the locos I have from them.. they really have that solid feel and look like they will last for ever. David PS isnt nice to have a thread where we can discuss and both agree and disagree without problems
		Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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john black		#38 Posted : 27 June 2008 01:16:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		[^]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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clapcott		#39 Posted : 27 June 2008 01:24:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Juhan, I don't think you are that far off topic. While I disagree with the sentiment by h-zeros\'s original post, there are correlations. MCA may be proprietory but it was derived from a mainframe architectural experience that just wasn't needed by a personal user - read $ v benifit - who wanted (or even knew) what bus-mastering was. PnP inherited a lot of the concepts because people finally got sick of the manual work involved with ISA type drivers and the investment in that sort of discipline could be weighed against the mid/long term support/resourse costs. (sounds similar DIP switch addressing v autodetection to me) I see this aligning with the DCC competition argument expressed above. i.e. mFX was bidirectional "out of the blocks". In the price comparison with DCC above, was it made against only bi-directional chips? or is this a miscomparison with mFX, like MCA having to bear the cost of a feature whose time is "not yet here" or that users don't fully appreciate/want to pay for. Has the DCC world even resolved there differences about which variant of the bidirectional protocol to use ? re OS/2 - As you state - up to v2.x this was a combined uSoft endevour. Sound familiar? like ESU<>Marklin ?? uSoft saw more market share with the flashy front end GUIs (chasing Apple) while IBM wanted a robust business worker. Oh and by the way MCA may have been prorietry, but a 3rd party could still license it. EISA died a quicker death than MCA On topic, I do not think it is the 60172 that is the flop - it hasn't been released yet and I for one want a product that will work. The flop is in the marketting and PR machinery setting false expectations and failure to communicate. The reference to October2008 is one example - this information should be stated on the website ( http://www.maerklin.de/d...iefertermine_preise.html ) not a rumour or blog. OS/2 rules
		Peter
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john black		#40 Posted : 27 June 2008 01:27:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br />our "company layout" Wow. Now I know what I've missed all the time ... [:p]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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H0		#41 Posted : 27 June 2008 02:04:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,437 Location: DE-NW		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by h-zero <br />IBM tried that with MCA - and IBM produces no more PCs now ... OS/2 also comes to mind ... Yeah Maybe, but MCA and OS/2 were actually very good products. IBM just didn't know how to sell them properly. BTW we still have a couple of OS/2 machines at my work - OS/2 rules!! When IBM's OS/2 2.0 came out, there were no computers fast enough for it (this brings Vista to my mind ...). I worked several months with MS OS/2 2.0 beta 3 - that was pretty fast on the computer I had at that time! The final OS/2 2.0 was shockingly slow even on computers with 16 MB RAM (and that was much those days). OS/2 was the successor of Windows. And Windows NT is the successor of OS/2. Back to the topic: there are rumours about mfx2. Will this be just a CS with high res colour display? Or some real New Technology? Is ESU out or in? No statements from M*, but many contradicting rumours. AFAIK MCA was a patent bought by IBM. Both EISA and MCA were flops, VL bus lasted only one season. Now there's PCI and AGP. I hope we won't get such a quick succession with MRR protocols. With MCA expansion cards were registered automatically with the BIOS. A great feature - but Win 9x with PnP was as good with ordinary ISA cards. OS/2 with WfW 3.11 was as expensive as MS DOS 6.22 with WfW 3.11 - and the people bought MS DOS though OS/2 was much better ...
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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john black		#42 Posted : 27 June 2008 02:06:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by biotechee <br />Regarding the plastic cardan shafts - they don't bother me because I believe one could fashion a suitable metal version - heck, if we have members here who can construct a bicycle from staples and such, surely metal replacement cardan shafts are a no brainer! Bottom line, I would like to see the elimination of plastic gears altogether. I think that is the weakest link that would be hard to fix, electronics excluded. Jim - agree with you except for the part re construction of replacement cardans by myself. Firstly I don't have the skills for such, and secondly I don't own an UNIMAT, sorry ... [:I]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Webmaster		#43 Posted : 27 June 2008 02:09:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165		Peter, I was at an IBM SAA seminar in the very late 80:s, where they showed us the new graphical interface for OS/2 1.2 (or was it 1.3..) that had been developed by IBM in their labs for human interaction... It had a revolution, the buttons gave the impression of movement when pressed... Since IBM & MS were still bound by contracts back then - who snatched that idea and got it to market first? Microsoft of course, with Windows 3.0.... I really liked OS/2 2.x, it ran Windows 3.x faster & smoother on a 16 MB 66MHz PS/2 machine in a virtual machine than Windows did native on the same machine... It took a while to boot the OS/2, but still nothing compared to NT and it's evolutions like XP & Vista... There was even a BSD X-like GUI for OS/2, and then it was blindingly fast graphically... Ooopps... Off-topic again... Even if there are some similarities with the mrr hobby regarding "wild west" tactics from manufacturers who are supposed to co-operate, like it was in the last decades of the last century with PC:s...
		Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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perz		#44 Posted : 27 June 2008 02:10:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br />our "company layout" Wow. Now I know what I've missed all the time ... [:p] If anyone else wonders: https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...ault.aspx?g=posts&t=8681 Regarding cost of the mfx decoders vs DCC decoders: Why do everybody believe there is a technical reason for this? There is really nothing in the mfx protocol that would make the decoder design more difficult or expensive than a decoder for DCC. Rather the opposite, I would say. The really difficult task in a decoder is the motor regulation anyway. Decoding the protocol is trivial in comparison. The feedback circuitry may cost a few cents extra vs. a decoder without feedback, but it is really a matter of cents here, not euros/dollars. I see a few reasons why mfx decoders are more expensive: 1. Limited volumes compared to DCC decoders. 2. Lack of competition due to the "proprietary" approach. 3. Decoder hardware designed to support advanced sound functions even in decoders without sound. None of this is a law of nature. It is a law of market. If mfx was open it would be possible for any DCC decoder manufacturer to drop in mfx support as well. They would probably still charge more for the dual function decoder. Not because they needed but because they could.
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john black		#45 Posted : 27 June 2008 02:17:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Another wow, Per. How could I 've overlooked such lovely detailed treasure ... congratulations [:p]
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Marty		#46 Posted : 27 June 2008 02:58:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/05/2008(UTC) Posts: 272 Location: USA		Did I miss something with the review of the E50 on this forum? I thought the cardan drive shafts were made entirely of metal. I have to study the picture again (I don't have any of the new shaft-drive stuff). I thought there was really nothing to complain about with that lok. Aren't all the shaft-driven Maerklin loks equipped with metal cardan shafts? Just asking ... [8)]
		Marty
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Davy		#47 Posted : 27 June 2008 04:10:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br /> Quote: Originally posted by john black <br /> Quote: Originally posted by perz <br />our "company layout" Wow. Now I know what I've missed all the time ... [:p] If anyone else wonders: https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...ault.aspx?g=posts&t=8681 Regarding cost of the mfx decoders vs DCC decoders: Why do everybody believe there is a technical reason for this? There is really nothing in the mfx protocol that would make the decoder design more difficult or expensive than a decoder for DCC. Rather the opposite, I would say. The really difficult task in a decoder is the motor regulation anyway. Decoding the protocol is trivial in comparison. The feedback circuitry may cost a few cents extra vs. a decoder without feedback, but it is really a matter of cents here, not euros/dollars. I see a few reasons why mfx decoders are more expensive: 1. Limited volumes compared to DCC decoders. 2. Lack of competition due to the "proprietary" approach. 3. Decoder hardware designed to support advanced sound functions even in decoders without sound. None of this is a law of nature. It is a law of market. If mfx was open it would be possible for any DCC decoder manufacturer to drop in mfx support as well. They would probably still charge more for the dual function decoder. Not because they needed but because they could. The volumes off mfx decoders are much greater then from any other firm that makes DCC decoders. Also the quality is probarly better. Marklin makes more money then all the other two rail firms in Europe. Why do you think almost every firm makes AC trains. They do that not for fun but for survival. The two rail world is still there where Marklin was more then 10 years ago. Most two rail drivers are not digital at all. And reason nummer two DCC is not yet user friendly. It is still to much for advanced and technical two rail drivers. You can say maybe freaks. And Marklin has probarly already sold more CS then Esu with their Ecos will sell in 10 years. And the amount of mobile stations is also very high. So in this prospect systems is a hit for Marklin. Mfx lokound locs are doing very well. And the old days are over and they will never come back and I didnot like the noisy old bad driving Marklin locs. You have to live with that our else you can do something else. And mfx is not a closed system at all. Everybody can get the interface protocol. And I think it is good that marklin does not make everything them self anymore. Let other firms make the parts for systems and let Marklin make trains.
		M-track with a CS2.
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rschaffr		#48 Posted : 27 June 2008 04:24:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br /> And mfx is not a closed system at all. Everybody can get the interface protocol. Really??? Can you provide a URL that describes it?
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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Bigdaddynz		#49 Posted : 27 June 2008 10:10:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,764 Location: New Zealand		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Webmaster <br />Peter, I was at an IBM SAA seminar in the very late 80:s, where they showed us the new graphical interface for OS/2 1.2 (or was it 1.3..) that had been developed by IBM in their labs for human interaction... It had a revolution, the buttons gave the impression of movement when pressed... Since IBM & MS were still bound by contracts back then - who snatched that idea and got it to market first? Microsoft of course, with Windows 3.0.... I really liked OS/2 2.x, it ran Windows 3.x faster & smoother on a 16 MB 66MHz PS/2 machine in a virtual machine than Windows did native on the same machine... It took a while to boot the OS/2, but still nothing compared to NT and it's evolutions like XP & Vista... There was even a BSD X-like GUI for OS/2, and then it was blindingly fast graphically... Ooopps... Off-topic again... Even if there are some similarities with the mrr hobby regarding "wild west" tactics from manufacturers who are supposed to co-operate, like it was in the last decades of the last century with PC:s... Sorry off topic again, but I agree with our webmaster. We ran 400 users off an IBM file server with only 32mb of memory running OS/2 Warp Server (v3.0). Try doing that with Windows Server xxxx! BTW, the current versions of Windows still have quite a chunk of legacy OS/2 code in them. OS/2 still rules
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Bigdaddynz		#50 Posted : 27 June 2008 10:20:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,764 Location: New Zealand		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br />Everybody can get the interface protocol. Sorry Davy, but tell that to Frank (fvri), the developer of LocCommander! See Frank's 3rd the last post in this thread about his troubles in getting information about the CS and mfx protocol: https://www.marklin-user...s&t=8149&whichpage=2
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