Hello,

That's a vast topic and it may become sometimes complex.

I don't pretend to provide you answers to all of your question, but I'll try to highlight FIRST some aspects which may clarify things. The beginning of my reply is going to show the 3 main concepts you have to master, before going to manage a layout thru a PC in automatic mode. To better understand some of my writings, I will refer to the software I use to manage my layout, i.e. Rocrail. I don't say Rocrail is the software you have to use, it's only an example. You are totally free to choose the software you wish. Also, my examples use K-Track system, as I don't know about C-Track (You'll have to adapt my answers...)

About Automation, an introduction

For not to rewrite things that are already explained, I will put some links to some of the Rocrail wiki pages. Other software shares the same concepts...Only the way they are implemented may differ...

The main concept of an automated railroad model is what is called a "block". Only one loco/train may be in a block at a given time.
See there: http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=block-en

For a software to know if a block is occupied or free, you need to have (at least 1) "sensor"(s) associated to each block. There are many kind of sensors. The most classic sensor is an input line of a S88/V5217/LDT equivalent. This input line is connected to a piece of track which is able to tell "there is an axle on this sensitive piece of track" or "there is nothing on this sensitive piece of track". For instance, you put a couple of K-tracks 2295 (please adapt for C-Tracks), insert a wire between where the rails are cut, connect this wire to one input line of a S88, provides "O" and "B" on the whole set of rails, put a wagon between the 2 K2295, and on the CS2, the icon representing the sensor connected to the S88 input changes its color...That means there is "something" between the 2 pieces of K2295. This is the basic concept to provide feedback to a CS2, and thru the ethernet cable and IP addresses of the CS2 and your PC, to a software installed on the PC.
See concept on sensor: http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=sensor-en

But there is an other important concept, which is a "route". A route is a segment of a travel which connects 2 blocks together. Generally, a route is oriented. For instance if you have 2 consecutive blocks "A" and "B" the route "AtoB" is different from "BtoA", even is the same blocks are used by these routes. The difference is the direction the train/loco may take.
See concept here : http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=route-en

With these 3 concepts: blocks, sensors and routes, you know the essential of automating a railroad model layout.

Additional useful bits:
-Does a block need to have a signal ?
In the real "train" life, of course YES. The lights of the signal of a block "B" are triggered by the occupancy of bloc "B+1" and "B+2". When a train leaves block "B" (and immediately enters block "B+1") the signal of block "B" is set to red. When a train leaves block "B+1" (and enters block "B+2"), the signal of block "B+1" is set to red, and the signal of block "B" is set to yellow or green (depending of the length of the block)...and so on...To summarize, a block "B+1" drives the logic of the block BEFORE it, i.e. block "B". For a train to be able to leave a block, the next block MUST BE free (i.e. empty). For increased security, sometimes two blocks ahead must be free.

There are also two kinds of logic available with blocks: closed blocks (by defaults all signals are red, and set to yellow or green when needed) and opened blocks (by default all signals are green, and set to yellow/red when needed).

Back to the model railroad, a signal is not mandatory at the end of a block, because it is the software which will decide to stop/slow down the loco or let it go, depending of the occupation of the next block. But for realism, it is advised to put a signal, but it is not useful (in my opinion) for it to cut the power...Let the software do its job...
With Rocrail, the block logic is the "closed blocks" logic. With other software it depends on the choice of the designer...

-What about the turnouts ? All the turnouts implied in an automated driven layout MUST BE driven automatically for the routes to be correctly setup, generally by K83 compatible devices, each turnout/motor having a different address.

-What about the locos ? All the locos you wish to drive with the software (either in manual or automatic mode), must be Digital (i.e have a decoder) and "registered" in the software. If you have a loco with MM protocol, then you have to provide at least the MM address when registering the loco, or the DCC address with a DCC decoder, or some kind of special info when a MFX decoder... After that, when initializing the automatic mode, you put each loco involved in the automatic traffic in a distinct block, you tell the software that loco "X" is in block "B1", loco "Y" is in block "B2"...etc. Then you are ready to start the "auto" mode. The software knows the initial place of each/loco train, and having occupancy feedback from each blocks provided by the associated sensors, it is able to determine possible routes for the various locos and fully drive them...

One important thing to remember: If you have "N" blocks in your layout, you'll be able to drive automatically only "N-1" locos (a free block ahead is mandatory for a train to leave a block).

For a good understanding of these concepts, I suggest you to setup a simple "squared oval" layout (without any turnout and signal) on a workbench, put a block on each side of the oval with one or two sensors in each block, register 3 locos, get a software of your choice, and try some automatic mode with 1, then 2, then 3 locos together...have fun...and let your imagination flows...

It's better to try on a workbench before going to alter an existing layout, especially if you don't have any experience on automated railroad (or find a friend which already knows automating and allows you some testing). Don't be too hurried ! In case you make mistakes, you'll have a lot of work to redo your layout, so try to avoid it by taking the necessary time to think...

The things you'll have to decide for your layout are:

-Where do i put the blocks ?
-If very long straight lines, how many blocks in these long lines ? Beware: more blocks allow more trains at the same time, but if blocks are too short, trains will always start and stop too quickly...
-how many sensors per block ? (in my opinion, two is a good choice, but it depends on how the software manage the blocks)
-signal at block exit ?
-facility for the software to mix manual and automatic traffic ?

About Automation, an introduction: The end

Now, back to your remarks & questions...
- The more track blocks the better
not always...in automatic mode, if you have too many blocks and too many trains, the trains may stop and start too frequently...
- There should be a minimum of two contact tracks within each block (one on entrance and one on exit) and many people advise more than two
it depends on the software you are using... even with one sensor, you may achieve interesting behavior...but as a general rule, 2 sensors are preferable : one at the block entrance, one at the end of the block -not after the block)
- There should be a contact track after each switch on each of the divergent tracks
??? maybe if you wish to go in manual mode ??? but in automatic mode, no need; the software will cope with the block arrangement and the various routes connecting the different blocks
- track blocks should be as long as longest train
yes
- contact tracks should be as long as longest car (length b/t two axles)
in my opinion, it should be long enough for the sensor to trigger, but to avoid reliability problem, your assertion may be ok...
Question 1)
Answer: The use of a third sensor depends on the event it represents. This may differ thru various software. With Rocrail, a 3rd sensor may be used to get a very low speed until the signal at the end of the block where the train will stop, or to stop a short train right now.
Question 2)
Answer: it's not useful to waste money in braking modules. The software is doing the job for you, with blocks, sensors and routes...
Question 4)
Answer: In my opinion if the block is long enough, then you have room to put a 3rd sensor to have a slow speed when reaching the end of the block, in case the train must stop; otherwise, 2 sensors are enough
Question 5 & 6)
Answer: It's sometimes difficult to mix automatic and manual traffic with a software...But you may also program it in automatic mode to go to sidings (this may be a subject for a later article)
Question 9)
Answer: I'm not sure to really understand what you mean. In my understanding, a set of contact track connected to a S88 input IS the sensor which generate an event of occupancy or non occupancy. After that, the software deals with that event...

I hope my answers will have helped you, but they may also have generated many more questions...

Cheers
fabrice

Yes, you're right.

Because the real controller of your layout is the software. The CS2 acts only as a hardware transmitter.
In my opinion, the CS2 is a very poor automation manager...And I think it's rather normal, because a dedicated software for managing automation is very complex and I don't see M going that way...

In the past for my first layout "Trossingen", I had doubled the wiring for blocks with real insulators : with a relay on each block I was able either to continuously provide the power, or let the traditional mechanism of cutting the power when signal is red. I've used it 2 or 3 times, then later I've always used the automation provided by the software, and I think I will never go back...

One last advice when entering the world of automation driven by software : If your pleasure mainly comes from using knobs, pressing buttons to switch turnouts, etc... you may be disappointed when using a software... Of course, you may interact with your trains using the mouse of your computer in "manual" mode, but it's different !

On the opposite side, if you want to run 10 trains simultaneously with elegant speed decrease and complex courses, only a software can allows it...Possibilities are infinite !

But it's up to you

Cheers
Fabrice
PS: you may see an example of automation here: https://www.marklin-user...onnected.aspx#post426844

Lasse and Fabrice,

Thanks for your suggestions.

I have studied both your layouts and they are awesome.

I have initially planned upgrading to digital with the CS2 to run the trains automatically and the more I research the more I am leaning towards control via software as I am becoming aware of the limitations of the CS2 memory and automation.

Lasse-Are the infra-red detectors used because you have M track and a contact track is harder to come by with M track or is there another reason?

Lasse and Fabrice--Why did each of you choose the software you use? Can Train controller software be used on a Mac? (I will probably need to choose a software that is Mac compatible.)

Laxman

Hi Laxman,

Yes I opted for IF sensors on the M track, but mainly because I had already ballasted around the tracks.

Very easy to make contact track with C tracks but not sure how to do with M tracks...

Traincontroller is windows based. Can run on a MAC but you then of course need to install Windows as well.

Traincontroller is a paid software. The GOLD version has quite extensive functions and programming facilities (e.g. use of flagman - i.e. virtual sensors that monitor real sensors and can initiate all kinds of actions). I initially opted for this program (started with bronze) as I found the user manual very friendly and well written. I thought if the company is putting so much effort behind a English user manual (it's a German company) these guys not what they are doing.

My advice is - if you area already in favour for automation - you will be better off (cheaper as well) to design your layout for PC control from the beginning. If you already have a spare computer all you need to start with is one of the freeware programs - sensor tracks and S88 modules (which you need in any case for automation via CS2). Making routes and schedules is so much easier with the PC software and you will be able to break and stop the trains in a prototypical manner (more smoothly and accurately than with braking modules).

Brgds - Lasse

Hi Laxman,

You are correct - all you need is switches to be digitally controlled (either by K83 or with their own decoder), S88 feedback modules and contact tracks.

No brake modules or K84 to switch off/on power. So yes, it would be cheaper if you don't have to buy a separate PC.

I am using a Sony laptop (5 years old) but still fast enough to run my layout without any problems.

It's fairly simple to make a small schedule for a train following a specific routes, if you got some basic PC understanding.

In train controller you can also (with one click) initiate spontaneous run. You tell the train to go in which direction and it will take random routes. What I really enjoy with PC software is to run some of my trains in automation and the e.g. take a diesel from the roundhouse and drive manual to the goods yard to pick up wagons. I then have to follow the signals and can only go on blocks that has a green light. A bit like in the real world!

I installed lots of feeders (probably too many)! I just spaced them out so that's why in many of them they will be in the middle of the block. They could have been anyway.

On this video I did a fairly basic automation of my shadow yard. First train departs - when it arrives it will trigger the next train to depart (in this case the oldest train that have driven).



Brgds - Lasse

All, great and very informative thread. I am finished designing my layout and now I'm deciding on the electronics. The PC interface sounds very appealing. My question is if I go that route (no pun intended) do I still need a CS2? If not what could I use as it sounds like the PC interface can replace the CS2.

Thanks again for the great info.

I just want to bump this excellent thread and say that I am thrilled to discover that PC control allows for slow breaking without having to install breaking modules or insulated blocks.
This alone seems well worth it.

It is possible to use the 6021 control unit together with PC control.
I would not know what kind LAN to connect to a 6021.
Or is the CS2 or ESU Central Station essential?

Perhaps a list here of what different controls M-users have used to connect to and run PC or Mac based route and train control software would be beneficial.

Thanks again for the great advice from Lasse and Fabrice and to Laxman for asking.
Curious to know how Laxman has progressed with his 'studies'.

- Mark

ps. It would be great if we could email notifications from threads without having to post on a thread.
Alas, I would not want to burden our dedicated webmaster with extra work managing our 1/2 million posts!
Thank you Juhan!


Added:
Similar topic from Fabrice - More great info on PC control of your layout
https://www.marklin-user...ftware---Tips-and-tricks

Hadn't seen that! Sorry.
I will try that and wait for a post on a thread to see if I get a notification.
Thanks again Juhan!
- Mark

Thank you Alan,

That's exciting news.
Do you know anyone who is currently using or writing a program of their own?
It would useful to have something to use as open source and can be shared.

Have you seen the 6051 interface available online?

- Mark

There are a number of recreational developers around.

The whole point is that modelers can write a program the way they want it.
Therefore, I am not sure if open source sharing of code is all that beneficial, except maybe for the interface setup and then only to copy and paste.
Usually once you have got over the connection hurdle you run in your own direction.

You would do well by identifying your preferred development environment

you may wish to checkout JMRI , although that is not overflowing with Marklin chatter.


If you wish to continue using your 6020/1 I would suggest investigating the LocoNet adapters (Uhlenbrock sell both a 6021<>Loconet and a PB<>Loconet option)

This offers the advantage of bi-directional awareness - the 6021 does not provide the ability to query a loco or accessory state - or a short detection

Comment: CS1 and CS2 use IP(ethernet) but different protocols

Hey Mark,

Thanks so much for your post. As an update, I have completely rewired my layout using only contact tracks and am currently using CS2 and PC control with iTrain software. I chose iTrain as it was the only one I could find that was truly Mac compatible.

I have been very happy with my choice to change to PC control. The options to run trains are quite extensive in iTrain and I am sure just as extensive in a program such as rocrail which Fabrice is an expert at or TrainController. The learning curve was not that difficult although it took a bit of time. I think the trickiest part is setting up the connection bt the CS2 and the PC.

To be honest the only problems I have had are with regards to the C track turnout motors 74490 and 74491. I had very many problems with them not working reliably and have since gone to shorting them out across the microswitches ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkt5h4b0WGE this is excellent you tube video by Oscar Tamayo on how to do this) and have increased my reliability.

With regard to signals and station platforms, PC control is great as you can choose where you want the trains to stop with realistic braking and no need for braking modules. There are no separate power blocks ( the traditional M method ). Only feeder wires and contact tracks. You will need at least one contact track per block ( I use two--one entry and one exit ) for most blocks.

I cannot give any advice concerning the 6021. I can say, however, that the nice thing about the programs ( iTrain, TrainController etc) is that the programs are written and instruction manuals are provided and all you need to do is read them and then choose the options/settings you want for your particular situation.

Best of Luck and keep us updated on your progress.

Laxman

My reference to bi-directional was in regards to the PC knowing (and displaying) what happens on the controller hardware AND that the controller hardware (except throttle knob) reflected what happens on the PC.

The 605x will only provide sensor information

However, you raise a good point as to the locomotives direction. The 6050 is not able to specifically instruct a particular direction. It has a speed command and a reverse command. These are sent to the controller, who has the responsibility of overlaying the two in the command that goes to the track.

you are advised not to use 6080 decoders that do not support even the controller combined command.



No the unit is UHL63830, however I have only ever seen it stocked as part of the 64830 kit. (The unit also includes an IR receiver and the kit provides the remote unit)
Ref
http://www.uhlenbrock.de...LocoNet/ICD95992-001.htm!ArcEntryInfo=0007.5.ICD95992
and
http://www.uhlenbrock.de...A64-01D.apd/Bes63820.pdf


UHL have a PC to loconet adapter 63120 (USB), but you may also find the RR-Circuits equivalent locally.
Of interest may also be the Faller161351

These offer plenty of variation and versatility because of the things you can do on the LocoNet.
Personally I retain an interest purely as it allows a bridge the Accessory devices like UHL TrackControl, various S88 solutions, LISSY etc.

If I was only or primarily interested in train movement I would continue with or invest in, the CS (1 or 2) .
- The CS1 has a sniffer port for reading MM from the likes of a 6021
- The CS2 needs a 60128 to do the same.

Having enough space for so many turnouts and blocks is unrealistic for many of us, though it is nice that in todays digital world, one controller can manage that much.
In the old analog days, that required so much wiring, and manual switching operation or reed/citcuit contacts. It was a major engineering undertaking. Today so much is plug and play.
Does it make us less cognative of technical skills? Even not having to enter addresses manually as with a 6021 controller, I forget which items have which addresses. Of course rather than having them written down ina log, you just open the edit menu and see what they are for the article or Loco.