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Offline H0  
#1 Posted : 12 December 2013 09:35:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

If a model comes with prototype sound (sound decoder) then ideally you would here the prototype sound only, no noise from model motor or gear.

But reality shows that noise from model motor or gear sometimes interferes with the prototype sound or even hides it at full speed.

How was your worst experience in that area? Noises from the wheels/tracks do not count, this poll is only about noises from motors and gears.

These are the poll answers I would have liked to enter:
1. I have (a) model(s) where the model noise hides the prototype sound at full speed.
2. I have (a) model(s) where the model noise severely interferes with the prototype sound at full speed.
3. I have (a) model(s) where the model noise disturbs the prototype sound at full speed.
4. I have (a) model(s) where the model noise is hardly audible at full speed with the prototype sound on.
5. All my sound models are so quiet that I do not hear model noise with the prototype sound on, not even at full speed.
6. I don't have any locos with prototype sounds (sound decoders).

YAF only allowed shortened texts in the poll above.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mbarreto  
#2 Posted : 12 December 2013 10:13:09(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 977
I voted on 3 (disturbs) and I am refering for locos with the 5 pole DCM, like for example the BR96s.
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline Janne75  
#3 Posted : 12 December 2013 10:37:54(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,538
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
I voted on 3 (disturbs) and I am refering for locos with the 5 pole DCM, like for example the BR96s.


I voted also on 3 for the same reason. I have some sound locos and also 37967 Gt 2x4/4. Usually almost all locos except some SDS ones have noise.

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 12 December 2013 11:08:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
I voted on 3 (disturbs) and I am refering for locos with the 5 pole DCM, like for example the BR96s.
This poll is about your worst experience - and most often this will be 5-pole DCM (but tiny can motors running at high RPM can also disturb the experience with their whining sound).

The question between the lines: does it make sense to buy locos with sound if you know that motor and/or gear are of a noise type?
IMHO a sound decoder does not always make models more attractive.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 12 December 2013 14:25:52(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,777
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the poll. It raises many associated discussions.

I find that some of my sound locos are OK at low speeds but get drowned out at higher speeds by the motor/gear sounds. For this reason I think Marklin should move away from the traditional DCM/FCM motors and all wheel gearing for new toolings (as I believe they do).

In my opinion sound is not a great asset in my locos, and I never add sound to a loco that comes "silent", though I have bought some sound locos and will continue to get the occasional example, especially when they are not offered without sound. I especially disagree with full sound on models of electric locos. To have an artificial humming sound seems a bit pointless, when it makes already its own humming sound anyway....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline arcanjo  
#6 Posted : 12 December 2013 15:51:44(UTC)
arcanjo

Portugal   
Joined: 14/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Portugal
Hi all!

I voted on 3. I don't have a huge number of locos, but my worst experience so far was with a BR 221 (ref 37820 weathered). The running of the motor partially eclipses the operating sound. It is not lack of oil or maintenance. It was already like that, fresh out of the box.

Regards!

Miguel
Offline Andrey  
#7 Posted : 12 December 2013 18:06:55(UTC)
Andrey

Russian Federation   
Joined: 03/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 641
Location: Moscow
Hi!

I voted # 3. The most frustrating experience I've got with 37361 Ae 6/6.
Offline CarlosAlberto  
#8 Posted : 12 December 2013 18:40:13(UTC)
CarlosAlberto

Portugal   
Joined: 04/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 91
Location: Portugal
This poll is about your worst experience - and most often this will be 5-pole DCM (but tiny can motors running at high RPM can also disturb the experience with their whining sound).

The question between the lines: does it make sense to buy locos with sound if you know that motor and/or gear are of a noise type?
IMHO a sound decoder does not always make models more attractive.


Hi.

Does make sense!

No bother to me earing that caracteristic noise from the cog wheels, specialy on heavy freight locomotives...

I like that on a locomotive, as much i like full sound!

5-pole engines are the most trustfull ones to me. Indeed SDS are the most silent ones...

in this case, the model noise interfers at minimum speed (like a class 44\50)
Regards
Carlos
... 51 years living with Marklin at my side.
Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 13 December 2013 05:56:24(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
I grow fatigued of seeing some people complain about the noise of Maerklin models in one topic but then complaining about the lack of traction or lack of pulling power on other models in other topics or forums.
Traditional Maerklin loks have a signature noise that may be a little louder than some other models. This is partly due to the design of the motor and party due to the fact that the metal shell actually increases the resonance of the sound.
It is a compromise that most modellers are willing to live with. It would be nice to have seen more and more models delivered with the C-sine motor as that was pretty impressive (IMHO). The mini-sinus was ok but not quite as impressive.
I have a few ultra quiet Roco loks that are impressive when the sound decoder is in use. Since most of my trains are 6-7 coaches long, I do not have any issues with traction or pulling power. However, my Maerklin loks can probably push two Roco loks heading in the other direction.
You have to admire each of your loks for it's positive features and not to pay too much attention to the minor flaws or perceived shortcomings. For example, that whisper quiet lok where you can hear the slider clicking on each stud. It is still a wonderful lok.
This is the best advice that I can give each of you to make the best of your modelling experience.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 13 December 2013 09:13:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Traditional Maerklin loks have a signature noise that may be a little louder than some other models. This is partly due to the design of the motor and party due to the fact that the metal shell actually increases the resonance of the sound.
This poll is not about Märklin sound locos, it is about frustrating sound locos.
We all know Märklin locos with old-style motor/gear are noisier than new ones.
When a Märklin loco appears in the catalogue for the first time with sound, there is a "Want Have" factor about sound. But when the loco arrives, you may find that motor/gear is too loud to enjoy the prototype sounds at mid speed or prototype speed.
At least that is my experience. And judging from the poll I'm not alone.
I'm cured now with respect to one manufacturer: seeing Märklin's V 60, BR 80 or BR 86 does not trigger any Want Have feelings inside me.
Sound and digital functions still sell - ESU and Roco also jumped on that train.


Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
It would be nice to have seen more and more models delivered with the C-sine motor as that was pretty impressive (IMHO). The mini-sinus was ok but not quite as impressive.
That motor was too expensive.


Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
However, my Maerklin loks can probably push two Roco loks heading in the other direction.
Roco usually sacrifice one or two powered axles with their "AC" versions to make space for the slider.
But with most models tractive effort should be similar between Märklin and Roco. Other brands don't reduce the count of powered axles with their AC versions.
With respect to tractive effort, Märklin has made some shelf queens recently. For Märklin's E 17 (two axles powered, quiet gear with wormdrive) the MRR magazine MIBA measured a tractive effort of 330 g with cab 2 forward and 181 g with cab 1 forward. For the BR 50.40 with 5 powered axles, it was 164 g. For Märklin's BR 94.5 (5 powered axles) it was 97 g. For the Gützold 03.10 (DC version) they measure 271 g.
Quiet locos can be strong pullers, noisy locos can be weak pullers.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
You have to admire each of your loks for it's positive features and not to pay too much attention to the minor flaws or perceived shortcomings. For example, that whisper quiet lok where you can hear the slider clicking on each stud. It is still a wonderful lok.
This is the best advice that I can give each of you to make the best of your modelling experience.
Roco make the quietest sliders I know - and Märklin and Piko make the noisiest one.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Webmaster  
#11 Posted : 13 December 2013 18:44:35(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,133
I may be totally the wrong audience for this poll, but I like prototype noises - but I like the model motor noises too, unless they are too rough as with older c80 and 3-pole Märklin motors and such... With the newer higher frequency decoders, most motors are quiet enough for me...

To be honest I still think that the "prototype sounds" are an addition to, and not a replacement for, the noise a model makes... Smile
But I'm not a purist so I accept a lot, since most noises are feeble reproductions of real sound through small speakers... BigGrin
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 13 December 2013 19:14:46(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
My worst noise offenders are actually a few Roco loks made around the time of Roco's troubles. The earlier models were delivered with the new Flusterschleifer. The subsequent models came with a replacement slider, since Modellbahn GmbH was not authorized to use the Flusterschleifer. Of the loks from that period in my collection, only the 69666 Re 474 came with a newly designed slider that was slightly better. The Re 4/4II models came with sliders that make a "click" sound with every stud they contact.
I will at some point replace those sliders with the corresponding Flusterschleifer. Unfortunately this involves replacing the wiring and soldering the new wiring to the printed circuit of each lok. It may be possible for a skilled person to detach the cable and simply solder it to the new slider on the bogie. To do so would require the removal of the wire attached to the new Flusterschleifer.

Regards

Mike C
Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 13 December 2013 19:44:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,777
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
I may be totally the wrong audience for this poll, but I like prototype noises - but I like the model motor noises too, unless they are too rough as with older c80 and 3-pole Märklin motors and such... With the newer higher frequency decoders, most motors are quiet enough for me...

To be honest I still think that the "prototype sounds" are an addition to, and not a replacement for, the noise a model makes... Smile
But I'm not a purist so I accept a lot, since most noises are feeble reproductions of real sound through small speakers... BigGrin


I totally agree. There's also the fact that the sounds don't come and go as a train goes by, which is what a real train would do. If you're standing by the track the sound should grow in volume until the train is passing you, change slightly in frequency as it passes due to the doppler effect, and then diminish as the train recedes from you. On model trains the sound is just as loud wherever it is on the layout, unless you have a train room measured in hectares!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Janne75  
#14 Posted : 14 December 2013 11:15:43(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,538
Location: Finland
Hi all,

I voted too early as after that I bought my so far most noisy sound loco. My 37862 has more noise than any other of my sound locos at full speed, even when I adjusted it's top speed to prototypically in scale 1:87 around 80 km/h. I would vote "2" and not "3" because of this. If it is running slowly it is less noisy than some others, but the noise level increases more with this than others. I have to say that I set sound volume from 255 => 220 as in my opinion some sounds were too loud with 255 setting. But running sounds could have been left to 255. Individual sound level settings for different sounds are not unfortunately possible as this is Märklin mfx and not Esu.

Sorry for offtopic, but I wanted to share my current feelings. I'm happy with this newest BR 86 as it runs better (smoothly) and is less noisy than the previous ones even when it has the same 5-pole DCM motor.

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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