Hi!

I don't have a permanent layout (yet) , therefore I hardly run my locos at all. But hopefully I will have one in the future and therefore I'm a bit worried when I follow discussions on Stummis forum about the motors in newer Märklin locos.

Exactly which motors do Märklin use today? Are there any standard-motors or is it a new motor for (nearly) every new loco? What is a "hochleistungsantriebe" really? This name seems to be used for nearly every Märklin-motor.

Before we had the 5-pole "HLA", then we got the different Sinus-motors. What replaced the last SDS-motor? I've read about different bell-shaped motors, but they seem to have all come and gone.

When the 5-pole "HLA" and the Sinus-motors were introduced they were followed by marketing which by using numbers and graphs told us how great and superior they were. About newer motors from Märklin you hardly see any information at all. Is it a case of "the less told the better"? Hope not!

In Märklin Magazin 4/2011 they tell us a little about one motor. They don't say much but in the text it says something like "of course high demands on a motors characteristics is reflected in it's cost." What to think then, when one motor in the 37753 costs 15 euros as a spare-part? Why don't we see any proud promotion from Märklin about their motors any more. They've written a lot about the new decoders but I can't find much about the motors. Or have I just missed it?

Would be grateful if someone could bring some light to the matter.

/Torbjörn

There is a discussion in the Dm3 thread saying that the Dm3 came with three-pole motors (like the new V 100). I have neither of those and cannot say whether they have three-pole or five-pole motors.
I noticed that some new M* locos get going with a little kick or jump. This was also reported against the Dm3 - and on Stummi's Forum they blame the three-pole motor (but maybe the load regulation of the new M* decoders is to blame, that would be my guess).

The new BR 45 from Märklin 37455 also comes with a new type of motor. Earlier models had coreless motors (with bell-shaped armature), while the new model has a three-pole DC motor.

Users who use signals to cut off the track power complain that this new model stops very abruptly, much quicker than earlier BR 45.
With digital operation on clean tracks, the acceleration and braking delay of the decoder will be active and stop the loco smoothly.

One user on Stummi's Forum reported that the new loco runs almost as good as earlier BR 45s, but the person with the cut-off signals is not really happy with the new motor.

Read the product description carefully. If it reads "four axles powered" than caveat emptor.

Very well put thank you.

My E 10.3, E 10.12, and E 50 are very good. They all have ESU decoders and SDS.
I'm somewhat disappointed by the E 17 and even more by the Lollo 37740.

The uproar on Stummi's Forum (by a minority) about the new three-pole motors is mainly about the BR 94.5, the new V 100, or the Lollo - and the new Dm3.
Did you watch this video from 7:20 through 7:30? What a smooth runner.
https://www.youtube.com/...&v=2KYoPYaFQTw#t=439

It seems the new three-pole motors came mainly with new 2012/2013 models. Models from 2011 and earlier had better motors - and not all models from 2012/2013 have three-pole motors.
The problem exists with some locos produced this year or last year. So most locos bought in the last couple of years will still have better motors.
The product database only shows "controlled high efficiency propulsion" for many new items because many nice adjectives (like "five-pole", "skewed armature" or "bell-shaped armature") are no longer applicable.

There's a poll on Stummi's forum. There are only 203 votes - 17 % are happy with the new three-pole motors, 40 % want the five-pole motors back, 43 % would prefer motors with bell-shaped armature.
With only 203 votes this poll is not representative.

I decide what I buy with my money. It won't be Mother M's new E 93.
You decide what you buy.

See also:
https://www.marklin-user...n-motors.aspx#post424545

The icon means nothing, the phrase "controlled high-efficiency propulsion with a flywheel" only means you get a DC motor with permanent magnet and flywheel - it doesn't mean you get a five-pole motor.

That's part of the problem: all models are announced with "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" only and you no longer know what you will get.
Ask them how many poles the motor of the V 100 does have - and probably they will reply that they don't know ...

The motor thread contains a link to Stummi's forum where you can see a photo of the disassembled motor of a Märklin BR 94.5. Surprise, surprise - there are only three poles.
And there is the same 5-pole icon in the product description. OK, the RRP is only €329.95.

Here's a link to the post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212

Thanks Tom for pointing this one to us!

Well, if that is the type of "el cheapo" motor Mârklin is putting in some of their so called up-scale loks, we should indeed protest violently.
There is a precedent: the red Arrow railcar had a similar Buhler motor, very noisy and highly unreliable.

During my Märklin Service career until 2005 , I replaced **dozens** of them.

The problem was so prominent that I advised my clients to let me install a nice little Faulhaber motor upgrade instead.
The plastic gears in the same model were also a piece of junk, needing multiple replacements, until I decided to replace them with brass gears of my own fabrication.

But that was in the 1980's!!

Making a mistake is human. repeat it is plain stupid!

Time for a consumers' well worded **Letter of protest!**, no?

Let's write up a petition (English, German, French, Spanish) post it on the web, get as many people as possible to sign up and present it to Märklin's management.

Funny thing is: the five-pole DCM armature cost €29.50 as a spare part. You can get the whole 60941 motor for €29.50.
You can get the motor of the Dm3 for €15 as a spare part.

So obviously trusty old five-pole DCM is too expensive and they can save a few bucks with the new maintenance-free can motors (no user-serviceable parts inside ).

Like any other brand on the markets, Märklin did always have its advantages and disadvantages. Like every other model train firm, Märklin did always have certain quality problems. This does not necessarily mean poorly manufactured items, but also items which were far from being state-of-the-art.

Märklin stuck to tin-plate much longer than any other firm. Okay, that's not a quality problem. But in the 1960s, nicely detailed plastic coaches with interior furnishings became standard, while Märklin still presented poorly detailed tin-plate coaches which didn't have any furnishings at all as new toolings! They could have provided their tin-plate models with more details, but they just haven't...

At the same time, Fleischmann presented nicely detailed steamers such as the BR 01 and BR 50 with lots of really fine details. But what did Märklin? Their new BR 38 model presented at the same time looked like as it came from a tooling from the late 1940s or early 1950s. It came with molded headlights and without any brake rods.

Also in the 1960s, many Märkliners changed to 2-rail DC because they had grown tired of the outdated M-tracks. Märklin realised this much too late. If K-tracks would have come earlier, many of these model train enthusiasts would have stayed with Märklin.

In the 1970s, Märklin introdouced more plastic coaches, but detailing of these coaches remained poor. Even the quality of printing (i.e. lettering) did not always match standards set by Märklin themselves before.

In the 1980s, Märklin became a digital pioneer. But in the 1990s and early 2000s, they just forgot to further develop their digital technology. ESU and Uhlenbrock set new standards at the same time. Decoders became smaller in size, but could handle more adresses. Compared to this, Märklin's decoders were still "giants" not fitting into small locos, and could still handle only 80 adresses.

Other firms had similar problems. As Fleischmann became an expert for H0 gauge steamers, at the same time detailing of their coaches remained poor. And Roco? In their early years, they used to much plastic. Eventually, they turned to more metal parts.

But don't forget: it was Märklin who was one of the "plastic pioneers" in the 1950s. Their BR 89 and BR 24 are the best known examples for this. From the 1960s until the 1990s, Märklin presented a lot of nicely detailed locos which had "only" a plastic body. And don't forget all their excellent plastic freight cars!

This metal ideology came only with Wolfgang Topp in the 1990s. But he was also the man who turned Märklin into an "exclusive" premium brand for adult collectors, focusing on retirees and neglecting young customers. All the years before, however, Märklin had always been a firm providing affordable (and reliable) items for a family hobby, a hobby for people of all ages. Just as the other "big players" such as Roco, Trix or Fleischmann did back then. That's what Märklin should become again!

Regards,
Florian

.....Quite frankly I don't understand what's the matter with your "ever-going-never-stopping-unrelenting-unstoppable" ranting over Märklin (...) quality!.....
etc...etc...etc...

The recently (cheaply) retooled BR 24 models are all made in China... Shall I start preparing again for more Zinkpest infections?

Blaim against chinese worker...not Marklin!!

Moved off topic posts on 3 pole motors from Marklin 2014 New Items thread.

I bought a 29040 start set so I could get a couple more lokos with different road numbers. The Br 50 has the time tested DCM/HEP/5 star motor. I suspect the E40 has a three pole can motor. Most of you know I replace my MFX decoders with ESU decoders and run them with DCC format. When I changed the decoder in the E40 I picked "Marklin 5 star" in LokProgrammer to set the motor regulation CVs. The loko ran well, but not great. There were small lunges up and down at speed step one. Barely perceptable, you might even persuade yourself it wasn't happening. Remembering Tom said that Hag uses three pole can motors, I then picked "Hag motor" in LokProgrammer. It now runs great. This is not a commentary on who's decoder regulates better, I only do a quick test to confirm the loko runs before the MFX comes out and the ESU decoder goes in. It is a commentary on the performance of a three pole motor and that they can be made to run as well as a five pole motor. It is also worth noting that even though it was a start set loko, three pole motors appear to be more prevalent in Marklin lokos.

Tom, to days world of selling is praise your own product even if it is crap and this goes not just for the modeltrain manufacturers , its the car industry, the food industry, today you will not find an add about the safety of a motor vehicle, how many air bags it has got or is it petrol or diesel, has it got a spare tyre, what you will see young girls getting into and out of the car and they show you a GPS (which are useless) and the colour of the car.
here in Australia one of the big Supermarkets Coles advertises fresh meat and Deli products, their meat is crap and has been for as long I remember, once every 6 years or so my wife tries a piece and it hasn't changed.

I'm happy to announce I've bought all my locos years ago and I'm happy with them but if I buy any more Märklin locos I will definitely make sure they don't have an El Cheapo motor in it.

John

Hi all,
May go OT on this but please bear with me,....

As stated before,I have been impressed by HAG 3-poles motors,maybe the ball bearings in the motor(?) Also,I have converted old Fleischmann ring motors,and small can(3-pole) to digital,all ran fine and without fine tuning (CV's). I think that the right decoder can run a 3-pole better. Now,other factors can impede performance,gearing,etc.That said,I have had M loks ran great out-of-the-box,a few,....not so much,...
Of course,I have also run Trix and a lot of DCC loks right out of the box and nary a problem.

What was my point again?

Dirt

Most of the time I talk about models I have tested.
I do not have the instruments to proof it, but from my observations I dare say that the current Märklin mfx decoders do not have a load regulation that is state of the art. I've said it before: the load regulation is good enough for good motors, but comes to its limits with not so good motors.

Today I made some test runs with three Märklin Ludmillas: one has the factory-installed fx decoder, one has the factory-installed mfx decoder, one was converted to ESU V4.
The best and smoothest runner was the loco with the ESU decoder, the worst and jerkiest runner was the mfx loco - worse than the loco with fx decoder.

Same with Märklin TRAXX locos: I have one with factory-installed mfx decoder and it runs worse and jerkier than the TRAXX locos with fx decoders. I presume TRAXX and Ludmilla use the same motor type.

The Lollo 37740 shows the same jerkiness when starting at speed step 1 from a stand still like the Hobby locos TRAXX and Ludmilla with factory-installed mfx decoders. A BR 216 from a starter set with fx decoder (and five-pole motor) runs much smoother than the Lollo with mfx decoder.

The new Lollo is quieter than locos with the old five-pole motors and it runs much better than locos with 6080 or Delta decoders. But still it starts jerkier than earlier Märklin models or locos from other brands.
I know from hearsay that many do not notice this jerkiness - some notice it but don't mind. That's life. People are different.
I notice the jerkiness. I will avoid it in the future. Märklin's new standard motor exceeds all their requirements. Fine for Märklin. It does not meet my requirements for non-hobby locos.

I spake from my own experience.

I remember a certain Mister Mayer (Meyer?) . 10 yearsago I've had telephone exchanges with him. Very friendly.
Rare in Maerklin: He also speaks French ! Is this still the same Mr. Mayer (Meyer?) who speaks correct French language ?
It is true that the performance of an electric motor depends on several factors: the quality of the coil, number of turns, diameter of the copper wire, etc. ...
Specially those small motors : it doesn't depend on the number of poles only...despite that it is an important factor.

when they are new, all electric motors are working properly. (At least in the expected field of performance)

Seeing the pictures it looks so cheap : what Marklin can say about the longevity of the engine ?
Performance after 100 hours will be the same ?
How will rotate this engine after 100 hours? 300 hours? 500 hours ? ....well... I do not think I could go beyond /i]...
I remember some intensive comparative tests : some Maerklin models fitted with former Maerklin three poles motors could work about 2000 hours without any serious breakdown . ( [i]Knowing that even in case of serious failure we could replace parts..)

During the last 12 months I have bought 5 new Marklin locos. All have excellent finish and run well and reliably, so I have not experienced this "loss of quality" I hear about. A couple of these might have been in the shop for a year or so.

37741 DB V160 - 30 euro can motor
37001 OBB 2048 - 20 euro can motor
39023 DRG 18.3 - 120 euro SDS motor (Smoothest runner)
37616 DB 261 - DCM motor (noisiest and least smooth runner)
37165 DB 94 - 30 euro can motor

The 3 locos on my list with cheap motors are much smoother and quieter than the Br261 with the DCM motor. The SDS powered Br18.3 is of course the best runner, but not by so much that the extra 100 euro is noticed!

My criteria for smooth running are that the loco start easily at speed step 1, accelerate without visible steps to operating speed, and not exhibit jerkiness while running at any speed. Additionally, it must not be too sensitive to dirty track, which can be difficult to gauge unless compared at the same time to other locos.

That´s way i did critical about this motor here in the forum for some years ago.
It was just simple too expensive by produce them.
No wonder why Marklin did bankrupt...
Today they make sure to avoid from fiasco again.
SDS motor will not return back again to the new models...that is so sure about!

Not very happy about this fact too...

BR45 used to always come with Maxxon motors... they were quite expensive to replace, but then they partially justify the premium price that a BR45 model demands...

Now, it's like you're buying a downgraded model for the same price... but this seems to be the case for ALL recent Marklin re-made models.

I have for the past few months been actively searching and buying SDS motor lokos with a 39*** part number.
I have to replace the decoders with ESU V4s to eliminate the dreaded MFX, but I am very happy with what I have bought.

ABSOLUTELY !
Even with a good electronic regulation : decoders are cheap today. Cheaper than any mechanical improvement...
And what about the service life of those new motors ?





The worst is in their attitude
In the description or presentation of the model, they are careful NOT to announce the change of engine or NOT to describe the type of engine ...do they feel embarrased ?
When Marklin was replacing 3 pôles by 5 pôles or installing C-Sinus or SDS instead of classical motor .... they did not fail to mention it & to provide a description. (proudly !)
They have an attitude of disdain for their customers , they show a big lack of esteem .
And that is the worst of the worst !
(We don't even know which models will be fitted with 3 pôles, now with all this changes on the sly we don't even know about any type of motors ! ...)