That makes one!

Roland bought it at the normal price, I bought it at the normal price.
In an immanipulated poll this makes two.

With respect to Märklin: 25+% off: good price, 40+% off: bargain candidate (caveat emptor: could be a bargain, could be a lemon), less than 25% off: normal price.

That will make Mr.Sieber Jr. very happy!

Bryan,
My congratulations with your Dutch daughter in law,should safeguard budgetcontrol in the house!
I note all that you are saying and I certainly agree that life is short.
At the age of 58 and looking back at my younger years,it is bitter to note that once you have the money to buy the trains you could not afford earlier,you seem to run out of time to enjoy them to the fullest.
This whole topic started with the announcement that Mr.Sieber wishes to introduce a new productline,also that Mr.Sieber thinks it is time for a change within Maerklin.
As the Dutch saying goes: "nieuwe bezems vegen schoon"/"new brooms wipe clean".
The real meaning of this statement goes well above our personal interests in individual Maerklin models,such as the Br64.
Let us wait what the marketeers have figured out early next year,hopefully we will all be happy about the move.
About cutting in consumer spending: it was our own government who told us only recently to cut spending in order to decrease the national debt,well this has had disastreous results for the building industry and shops in general,people have followed up the request very faithfully.
X-mas shopping: I spent my budget already on some M sixties/seventies heavy metal trains,the F7 Rio Grande double unit and the E41 in green and blue,but perhaps Santa still has a surprise for me,in which case I will opt for M 3310 and M 3184,again good old fashioned non digital non sound heavy stuff.
Kind regards,
Paul.

Was again in the M shop in Rotterdam,it was raining outside.
In the discount corner there is the M 37080 Insider 1999,the "Black Swan" Br10 streamlined steamer.
Asking price is Euro 299.-.
Going price on Dutch internet is around Euro 190.-.
Are you getting my point?

The choice is very personal. In that situation, I could well buy it at 299 euro, because it seems a fair price for a nice loco of that size. There's a lot of bargains on ebay trying to get my attention, and most of the time I pass on them.

How about you? Did you go back home and buy the ebay loco?

Good for you, Paul!

A good pair of shoes is better than a Marklin loco any day!

For €299 you can get it new from a dealer with full warranty - and it's an exclusive Insider Model (now available for outsiders, too). For around €190 you get it used and second hand and have to trust that "near mint" is the truth.
Nice loco, but the sound is not "state of the art".
The loco will get sold one day - for 299 or 279 or 259 or whatever.

That will make Mr Sieber grandson very happy!

That's why Märklin, Roco, and others always invent new digital functions: there are too many of the old models available at eBay - and Märklin cannot compete with the prices. You had the choice between a "new" BR 10 and a BR 10 from eBay - and you bought new shoes.
Shoes can't (always) wait till next year, but locos can.

The new BR64 mfx+ has another motor.
Marklin is not producing SDS motor anymore time,so i suppose it don´t work as usual.
Swedish customer did bought swedish diesel locomotiv T44 and has SDS motor,but it defaulted too often and did had very bad drive.

I think M are at the crossroads in a very difficult economic climate.
M are to decide whether they want to be a volume supplier for the masses or a niche supplier for the few.
If they want to be a volume supplier they need to bring their prices down,it would seem that for the time being Mr.Florian Sieber is heading in that direction,he announced an increase of activities in Hungary,were wages of workers are lower than in Germany.
If they want to be a niche supplier on the long run,producing highly detailed collector trains,they need to sack a large number of people,always a politically laden issue.
Tough times ahead.
Just read that The Netherlands are about to lose their triple A status,another clear indication of a very bad economic climate.
Still,i keep buying things as long as i have a job,and a large number of people do not have that.
Mind you,after 39 years of faithful labour,my current employer only allows me a yearcontract till end April 2014,no guarantees anymore.
It is in this environment that people stop buying entirely.
Over the years i have seen a change in mentality in shipping,nowadays only the officers come from Holland,all other crew comes from the Far East.
In the office,i have seen more and more tasks being diverted to the Far East also.
The one and only motive being cost cutting.
If people say that Hornby trains in China are no good,fine with me.
But how are Maerklin to produce M trains at Hornby prices,needs a miracle if you ask me.

You can manipulate them to want something they do not need. Something like "New" or "World first", "bargain", "sale", "loco of the month", "limited", "strictly limited", "one-time series", "export only", "Insider model", "MHI exclusive".
Or "warm-white LEDs" and "full operational sound" to make owners of the previous model with yellow LEDs and horn sound only want the new model.
Or "telex coupler". Or "mfx+"
This works to manipulate MRR collectors.

No-one needs MRR. No-one needs a TV set for life.
But you'll find a TV set in 95+ % of all homes and on the average they run 3 hours per day.

Will we see a Märklin train with LCD doors in the 2014 new items brochure? A model train with a TV set.
IIRC you can buy a TV set from Faller, masked as a drive-in movie theatre.

We'll see what new tricks they use for the new "start-up" series. They just have to make MRR look cool in the eyes of pre-teenagers who never had MRR in their lives.

Selling to the masses is something different than manipulating specific groups of potential buyers.
It would be an insult for most of the forum members to be told that they can be easily manipulated,as if we are brainless creatures having no will of our own.
The only places in the world where people are forced to buy something they do not want are Cuba and North-Korea,and perhaps Zimbabwe.
In the western world we have a free choise as to what to buy and where from.
Suppose you are looking for a new car,nobody forces you to buy a specific make.
Of course,by using the marketing instrument Promotion,makers could persuade you to opt for their product,but that has nothing to do with forcing you to buy an unwanted product,you want it very much,provided the price is right.
I like the new M set of the two Krokodiles,but the price of nearly 700 Euro's is blocking my mind to buy it.
Smart salesmen could try and sell me a fancy BMW for 50,000 Euro's,but is impossible for them to force me to buy it because i simply do not have the money!
You see the difference between forcing and manipulating?
Rather funny when on holidays in Africa,where streetsellers are asking you how much you want to spend on what they offer,in a funny way they understand the basic laws of marketing very well.

Hi Paul please, you have pointed out that you understand the way things work ect, but please. There are people who have 700euros that would not want to spend 700euros on Piko or Roco ect, but want to spend it on two metal Marklin models which give them joy and they can afford to buy. Fair play to them if they want to. There is demand for this type of model made by a very we'll loved old model train maker and Marklin delivered! It is expensive yes. And yes I don't have the money to buy them. But i do allow myself as others do to buy themselves something to add to there collection in there price range. And it is available in a range from Marklin. If someone wants something which is not in the catalogue they can look at other makes ,then it's up to them and there welcome to, as this forum shows. But what I don't get is why you have made a great deal of effort to complain about the class 64 price and Marklin, when you buy old style from ebay which does not support Marklin and the model shops which are shutting down due to on line shopping.
Please understand I buy from ebay myself and I have bought old stuff. But I still buy new from shops and I don't go on about prices. Because if I can't afford an engine I will buy a wagon or a set. If I can't afford them I will save up and buy later!
In short I would like a Mercedes McLaren, but I can't afford one so I bought a Mercedes Smart instead!! If you like Marklin and are impressed by them, new as well as old collector, child or parent, you will go back and get more. High or low price it's good stuff and you will not put People off it on this forum!!!
Marklin needs to increase its market share and the company that has just taken it over will and knows the market in toys not shipping and not artificial limbs which is my line of work as you have mentioned yours!
If they are good at what they do and increase there presence in the high street, they will be able to spend some of that on detailed full sound models, made of metal at a price which reflects the massive cost. It cost to make a locomotive body made of metal and quality finish, from tooling made of steel, unlike some other tooling made of brass which has a shelf life and will only produce a limited amount of body moulds. Also there are less train fans in the world as car transport has removed any chance of travelling by train for a lot of people since the 1960-70s and for a lot more for even going on holiday by rail. Therefore less exposure to little people of massive electric locomotives(I'm to young for steam!) therefore they are not interested unless someone buys one or they like the look of a nice train set in a shop window or there dad/ grandpa has one. An old analogue transformer doss not impress kids in 2013 were classes at school are all done with tech in mind and there lives at home are totally indulged in iPods and iPads and even phones.The world has changed and model trains are and will be a part of it as my little 9 year old girl proves. But you do need a sales man or adverts to sell them,! Even the cheap toys need that!

In Märklin TV episode 62 Florian Sieber already mentions a new product line for children:
"Mir liegt ganz klar die Gruppe der Sammler mehr am Herzen, das ist unser Brot-und-Butter-Geschäft, das sind ganz wichtige tolle Modelle, die wir hier machen und die Kunden, die wir bedienen sind die, die uns auch am Leben erhalten.
Und ich glaub, alles was wir machen für Kinder, auch vielleicht in der Zukunft, müssen wir immer berücksichtigen, dass diese Kunden, diese treuen Kunden, gerade die Insider, dass die uns jahrelang unterstützt haben und das die jahrelang der Firma Märklin und der Marke loyal geblieben sind. Und diesen Kunden schenken auch wir unser erstes Augenmerk.
Und das hält uns aber nicht davon ab, glaub ich, eine zusätzliche Linie, ein zusätzliches Standbein zu entwickeln, auch bei Märklin, das wiederum auf Kinder abzielt."

Optimized google translation of the German text (not the official Märklin translation from the English episode):
"I clearly have the group of collectors more at heart, this is our bread-and-butter business, which are very important great models that we do here and the customers we serve are those who also keep us alive .
And I think everything we do for children, even perhaps in the future, we must always bear in mind that these customers, these loyal customers, especially the insiders that have supported us for years and were loyal to Märklin and the brand . And these customers also get our first attention.
But that does not stop us from, I think, an additional line, also with Märklin, which aims at kids."

And here's the "official" English text from MTV:
"I clearly prefer the collectors, this makes up our main business. It's the great models that we produce and the customers buying them who keep our company alive.
So whatever we produce in the future, also for children &c., we must always keep in mind that those most loyal customers, and the club members in particular, have remained true to their brand.
Consequently we devote most of our energy to them.
Nevertheless I don't think this deters us from developing additional product lines like those focussing on the kids."


So it's clear as mud: they realized the big mistake they made with the overpriced BR 64 and other high-priced models and are now aiming completely at the mass market and the children.

The world around us is changing,as i told you even my socalled USA shoes come from China,this is global trading in action.
Everyday of the week containerships arrive from the Far East fully loaded with consumer goods of all kinds,we all have it at home without perhaps even knowing it.
The likes of Ikea are shipping hundreds of containers of furniture to Europe per annum,or did you think they were making it in Sweden?
For the same token selling behaviour of the public has drastically changed.
Internetselling has become very popular and about each and everything can be purchased virtually without having to go out in the rain and snow,how handy!
Maerklin themselves have understood this by selling via internet.
As i explained before i see no reason to support companies,Maerklin or any other company,just for the sake of it.
In your logic the fact that a Maerklin shop exists is reason enough to buy from that shop to support the poor guys running it,even if their prices go through the roof.
This has nothing to do with the free market principle as is common in the socalled free western world,where competition ensures that suppliers are not getting a monopoly.
I am surprised that you fail to understand this.
How does your other shopping behaviour look like i wonder.
Are you prepared to pay any given price for a car,couch,or jacket just to please the shopkeeper?

There are some global trends in action and it seems these are unstoppable.
If that means that local shopkeepers go out of bussiness well that is bad but reality,nothing remains as is.
The Maerklin shops were invented by Maerklin as part of the P for Promotion in the marketing mix.
As soon as M finds out that the concept does not work,M will will play it differently,simple as that.
Even cars are nowadays sold via internet,apparently the car makers do not care less about all those poor cardealers going broke,do you?

What i do not understand from you guys that apparently you like to get ripped off in a M shop because you like M so much.
If they sell the Black Swan at Euro 299.- whereas the going price is Euro 190.- i think they should no longer be running a shop.
I think Maerklin understands this.

The clothes industry is a nice example of the way we are getting ripped off day by day.
It is a well kept secret that the profit margins in that industry are extraordinary.
In the current "buyers strike" shops are able to sell at 30/40/50 pct discount,which makes you wonder what they have put in their pockets before the crisis.
Are you going to tell me that i should buy specific brandnames to support those shops?!

Coming back on the Br 64 again,unlike some other people on this forum i do not have the money to buy fancy state of the art locomotives in M shops.
Instead i buy 60/70s stuff on internet for a fraction of the price,these items remind me of my youth in the early sixties when there was nothing at all,no money,nothing.

You must have read that Mr.Sieber has announced increased production in Hungary.
Why do you think that is?
Do you think Mr.Sieber likes the Hungarian people so much that he wants to ensure jobs overthere?
Do the production efforts in Hungary help the German people in any way?
Would the real reason not be that wages are lower in Hungary as compared to Germany so that something can be done about the price setting of Maerklin?
Do you really think Maerklin is a charity organisation who is just in operation to please us?
Is it not so that Maerklin are a commercial organisation which will do all possible to survive,like any other commercial company?

In the old days,Dutch shippers liked to ship with a Dutch shipping company.
Not any more,if a Chinese shipping co.can carry containers cheaper,the cargo will go that way.
Price is the guiding factor.
I am sure that German forwarders like Schenker,who offer hundreds of containers per month, will only ship with Hapag-Lloyd if the price is right,no national sentiments.
And this economic reality would not be applicable to Maerklin?
You must be joking!

I've said it before: They cannot reduce their German workforce before 2019. So the new jobs in Hungary replace jobs that were in China so far.
And wages in Hungary are higher than wages in China.
So do you think that more jobs in Hungary will allow them to reduce costs?
The move improves quality and allows timely production, independent of contractors that may or may not deliver on time. And they need fewer containers to get their stuff "shipped" (from Hungary probably on trucks, maybe trains - from China on ships).

And I'm afraid that many delayed M* products are the result of transferring production from China to Hungary. I think the Köf II in H0 suffered from this, but also many Z gauge and I gauge items.

A Märklin Big Boy is expensive (€600 street price incl. VAT). But IMHO the 37993 was worth that money.
The BR 64 from Roco has a similar level of price and detailing as the Märklin model - I think both are worth the street price.

A dealer who has a new BR 10 (37080) is in a no-win situation: at €190 he will get less money than he paid himself. While asking for €299 he may have to wait a long time to get money at all.

Another reason: the delay of sea transport.

There was a media hype about a new-born polar bear baby a few years ago - and Steiff (at that time with production in China) could not react quickly with stuffed polar bears while the hype was hot.

I had a guided tour through the factory at Göppingen.
The guide showed us the rooms where Märklin store their moulds, all clean, safe and dry and labelled, ready to be used again.
The guide told us that it's different in China: after a production run, the moulds are stored out in the open, under a plastic sheet. They get dirty, may get damaged, parts my get lost or may never be found again.

It's only hearsay and it's off topic, but relates to the expansion of the site in Hungary.

Märklin is now shipping the Köf II with Telex coupler announced in January 2011. A wild guess: this could be the first Köf II made in Europe and there may have been problems with the mould (or maybe there were problems with the Telex couplers?).

40 pct of the worlds freight travels by rail????????
Who told you that????
Every day of the week 10,000 TEU (=10,000 x 20 ft container) containerships depart and arrive from ports like Rotterdam and they go all directions,from Asia to the USA to South America to Australia.
These ships form the backbone of freight transportation over the globe.
The likes of Maersk are having at least 3 sailings a week to and from Rotterdam.
And what about cargo coming from the USA and South America,how does that arrive by rail??????
Is there a tunnel under the ocean i have not found yet???

The factory is in Hungary because the production costs there are lower than in Germany otherwise M would have kept total production in Germany,right?
Please do not mix up the China angle with the Hungary angle,two different issues.

That's a long story. After German unification they closed a site in Western Germany and started production in Sonneberg (1991). Sonneberg was closed in 2007 and production was shifted to China and Hungary. 400 workers left in Germany. IIRC there once were 1600 in Germany.

German workforce is stable since the insolvency. Recent growth in Hungary is the result of transfer from China to Europe. Yes, labour was too expensive in Germany - and quality was too bad in China, and the winner is Hungary.

Funny, this topic started with an announcement about making Märklin more interesting for children & youngsters, and has deviated in all kinds of directions...

My input:

1 - I'd happily pay 299 Euros for a new item to a trusted dealer where I can get service & warranties rather than 199 for a used one from Ebay.

2 - The BR64 is an excellent piece of work, well worth the about 250 Euros I paid for it... It's not like a 3000, if I may put it that way...

3 - Goods transportation... Import/export goods usually go by plane, or in containers on a ship if delivery speed is not of importance or product manufacturing is scheduled on a long-term basis and end price/product has to be optimized.

By sheer consumer goods volume per trip, the huge container ship wins big time even if the trip is very slow...
But all these containers can't stay in the harbor, can they?
So they have to be distributed by train, lorry and so on to reach the next point in the logistics chain...
So the same goods that goes by ship also uses other means of transportation.
Then the same goods has then to be transported further into domestic zones, usually by train, lorry or plane...

And finally, in the domestic zone, the consumer goods as well as domestic goods are transported by lorry or vans to the destination point so the receiver can get it...

I'd actually say that the domestic postal services handle more consumer goods than the container ships...


That was just consumer goods, which a small part of the total world logistics...

Let me just say that there are lot of other things transported by rail & lorries, either to ports where a ship can take bulk transports, to airfields for quick transport, or directly to refinery plants... Mining, food and much else...

So the big container ships, how big & impressive they may ever be, are just one part in the big worldwide logistic puzzle, and then usually for finalized consumer goods - but there is so much more to haul, than just Märklin locos, toasters, Toyota cars & iPhones before they get into that final transportable shape...


I work at a company that supplies logistic systems to some big companies in different areas (including beer... ) who rely on efficient logistics as a competitive business factor, so I have some basic knowledge about how it can be worldwide...

Paul, whatever the subject, it's always about you being right, isn't it?

I find some of your posts in this thread offensive, please watch your behavior.

Marco

I wonder if that means they will do some more budget range models of modern prototypes, For instance SNCF BB27000 electrics which are running in various country's like Germany and into Switzerland. Or may be a GM66, Or may be just plastic body stuff like the piko budget stuff. Who knows

And... Any more news on the product line this topic really is about?