3425 DW 14 "Kittel" problem

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3425 DW 14 "Kittel" problem - Loco don't run

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Janne75		#1 Posted : 09 October 2013 12:17:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Hi all, I got yesterday a 3425 DW 14 "Kittel". It has a Delta decoder from factory. I have set the address to 60 and all lights work, but it won't run. Today I measured if the motor gets voltage and it don't get any voltage. So maybe motor is ok. I have to test more and give it some voltage straight from a transformer. Mechanically this Kittel is in good running condition and not jammed in any way. So what could be the reason for these problems? Can Delta decoder be partially faulty as lights and address change works, but motor don't get any power? It is a really nice looking loco and I want to fix it. Cheers, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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H0		#2 Posted : 09 October 2013 12:45:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,474 Location: DE-NW		Hi! With Delta decoders the lights are normally connected to the motor outputs (intensity of lights changes with the speed).
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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Janne75		#3 Posted : 09 October 2013 12:57:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Originally Posted by: H0 Hi! With Delta decoders the lights are normally connected to the motor outputs (intensity of lights changes with the speed). Hi Tom, So could it be then a broken motor? I tested it separately with a white analog Märklin transformer and got only some sparking... By the way motor was installed previously in wrong side upwards as I have a part diagram picture of this 3425. There is very small differences in motors top and bottom sides, but it was installed wrongly. Maybe some polarity problem (+ and -). But when I installed motor correctly it don't run... Maybe there is some hope if lights are connected to motor outputs. Could it be that when lights brightness changes depending of the voltage motor inputs don't get any power at all if motor is damaged? I think that this motor is a cheap one, but there is a flywheel. I hope that it can be installed to new motor. Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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H0		#4 Posted : 09 October 2013 14:37:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,474 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Janne75 I tested it separately with a white analog Märklin transformer and got only some sparking... The motor probably is a DC type (I don't have that Kittel), so it won't work if you connect the motor directly. You need a diode or bridge rectifier to test that motor with a Märklin transformer. If you test the Kittel as a whole with a Märklin transformer, then make sure all DIP switches are set to OFF.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS

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Janne75		#5 Posted : 09 October 2013 15:08:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Hi, I tested it in analog mode as a whole with analog transformer with decoder DIP switches in OFF position and lights work, but motor don't. Broken motor maybe? I set it back to address 60 and tested with good old 6021 Control Unit. Lights work and motor don't. Regards, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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Webmaster		#6 Posted : 09 October 2013 21:39:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165		A 9V battery is a good thing to test a 12V DC motor with separately. Motor pole connections only, no connections from motor to decoder, chassis or such... I myself use an old Trix 12VDC transformer to test DC motors... You can get cheap Trix, Fleischmann or Roco 12VDC transformers on ebay if you plan to test more DC motors... I even use the Trix transformer for electronic experiments with LED's and such since I can set it to about 5VDC with the speed knob...
		Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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jvuye		#7 Posted : 09 October 2013 21:52:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Janne75 I tested it separately with a white analog Märklin transformer and got only some sparking... The motor probably is a DC type (I don't have that Kittel), so it won't work if you connect the motor directly. You need a diode or bridge rectifier to test that motor with a Märklin transformer. If you test the Kittel as a whole with a Märklin transformer, then make sure all DIP switches are set to OFF. Right Tom! I will add that if Janne fed AC directly to the motor (which I confirm is DC/ can type) without disconnecting the motor from the decoder, chances are that the sparking you saw meant that the motor is now fired for good and the output transistors of teh decoder are gonne too . They don't like being fed with AC on their outputs...believe me! Those motors are relatively cheap and not very durable. I have seen many of these being shorted ( carbon deposit shorting the commutator ....) If you don't have the basic knowledge, maybe better to look for someone's help on this one which is somewhat delicate...
		Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!

3 users liked this useful post by jvuye		BrandonVA, Janne75, H0
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Janne75		#8 Posted : 10 October 2013 13:02:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Originally Posted by: Webmaster A 9V battery is a good thing to test a 12V DC motor with separately. Motor pole connections only, no connections from motor to decoder, chassis or such... I myself use an old Trix 12VDC transformer to test DC motors... You can get cheap Trix, Fleischmann or Roco 12VDC transformers on ebay if you plan to test more DC motors... I even use the Trix transformer for electronic experiments with LED's and such since I can set it to about 5VDC with the speed knob... Hi Juhan, I will try the motor today separately with a 9V battery. I hope it still works . Cheers, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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Janne75		#9 Posted : 10 October 2013 13:09:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Originally Posted by: jvuye Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Janne75 I tested it separately with a white analog Märklin transformer and got only some sparking... The motor probably is a DC type (I don't have that Kittel), so it won't work if you connect the motor directly. You need a diode or bridge rectifier to test that motor with a Märklin transformer. If you test the Kittel as a whole with a Märklin transformer, then make sure all DIP switches are set to OFF. Right Tom! I will add that if Janne fed AC directly to the motor (which I confirm is DC/ can type) without disconnecting the motor from the decoder, chances are that the sparking you saw meant that the motor is now fired for good and the output transistors of teh decoder are gonne too . They don't like being fed with AC on their outputs...believe me! Those motors are relatively cheap and not very durable. I have seen many of these being shorted ( carbon deposit shorting the commutator ....) If you don't have the basic knowledge, maybe better to look for someone's help on this one which is somewhat delicate... Hi Jacques, I tested only the motor by feedind AC to it separately disconnected from loco, but as I have not bought it as new it is possible that someone else has tested it wrongly. I will try the motor today with a 9 V battery and if it don´t work then I replace the motor. But if there is no power coming to motor connections and decoder is damaged it will be a display cabinet queen then . I like the looks of these "Kittels" so much that then I just buy a DW 8 Kittel 3425 and have this DW 14 Kittel 3425 as spare loco body. Regards, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.

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Janne75		#10 Posted : 10 October 2013 20:17:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Hi again, I tested the motor separately today with a new 9 volt battery. First nothing happened, but then I tried to help and spin the flywheel with my fingers and suddenly it started to spin . But I'm not sure if it should start spinning this way and need more voltage to even start spinning on it's own? I took two pictures of the motor and the Delta special decoder Märklin 67410 (VER1.0 07/95). There is a chip with 70117B on it. So is it then a 6603 special version decoder as 6603 has 701.17 chip? It has not soldered wires in it and it has instead three sockets which connects to some pins to power this Kittel. I will upload the pictures later here so you can all see how they look like. I also took pictures of all my locos that have been bought after I sent my loco pictures in spring. These pictures can be seen in My Locomotives thread soon (maybe tomorrow). This time they are 640 x 480 so I hope they are ok now? Regards, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.

1 user liked this useful post by Janne75		BrandonVA
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Webmaster		#11 Posted : 10 October 2013 21:17:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165		The 70117B is a common chip for deltas, and I suppose the decoder board has an additional electronic "H-bridge" with diodes, resistors and 2 transistors compared to a standard Delta decoder since it feeds a DC motor. However, it feels like the motor could be a bit "rusty" so to speak - or maybe it has been oiled a bit in the factory with the famous 90's Märklin oil that hardens and acts as a glue after a while... The DC motor should spin freely at 9V.... I suggest putting a tiny bit of silicone oil at the bearings, ie where the motor shaft ends are visible...
		Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Janne75		#12 Posted : 11 October 2013 06:53:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Originally Posted by: Webmaster The 70117B is a common chip for deltas, and I suppose the decoder board has an additional electronic "H-bridge" with diodes, resistors and 2 transistors compared to a standard Delta decoder since it feeds a DC motor. However, it feels like the motor could be a bit "rusty" so to speak - or maybe it has been oiled a bit in the factory with the famous 90's Märklin oil that hardens and acts as a glue after a while... The DC motor should spin freely at 9V.... I suggest putting a tiny bit of silicone oil at the bearings, ie where the motor shaft ends are visible... Hi, Ok. Thanks from information . Motor is not jammed in any way and spins really freely when I rotate it with fingers from flywheel. Maybe I need a new motor. I hope that there is still motors available for it and with gears and flywheel as they are not removable from it. Here is two pictures of the motor and the decoder: Regards, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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eduard71		#13 Posted : 11 October 2013 14:05:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC) Posts: 297 Location: Santiago		You can use an electronic cleaner spry. The problem with this type of motor is that they get stock by the old oil if you do not use it for a long tme. I have had this problem with my kittel and my red arrow that have the same type of motor. You can spry the cleaner even with the motor running. You will see how it starts to go faster, then you will not need to help the motor again to start it. https://www.amazon.com/C...words=electronic+cleaner You can buy this kind of spry in your electronic shop. I hope it helps you. Regards Eduardo

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Janne75		#14 Posted : 11 October 2013 20:40:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,556 Location: Finland		Thanks Eduardo! I will try your method to spray electric contact cleaner first. I don't have spray at home so I will buy it soon. It can be that this spray fixes the problem, if I'm the lucky winner . Regards, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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