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Offline Rinus  
#1 Posted : 24 June 2013 20:46:12(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi all,

I'm struggling to get RocRail going automatic mode. I've registered all Loco's and switches. Most sensors are implemented as goes for the Blocks.

However a few questions remain unanswered:

1. How to execute the auto route generator?
2. When to execute the auto route generator? Which preconditions need to be there (blockwise?)
3. How to configure if a track is one way or both directions?
4. How to install the latest version? Mine looks pretty old compared to the rocrail wiki version.
5. RocRail Wiki tells me "After you create the blocks for your layout, you should create routes that link each block with the other blocks around it. Then you should go back to each block and set the events for all the routes that are linked to this block." How do I link blocks with other blocks???

Help is welcome!

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#2 Posted : 24 June 2013 23:01:36(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
HI Rinus,

Well, it may takes a bit of time to answer accurately to all your questions.

I won't be online tomorrow, but I'll try to add more answers later. So, for a quick answer:
1) Menu file/analyze/analyze
2) It is advised to use the route generator when all your blocks are defined. The route generator computes all links between available blocks. So if later you add more blocks, then the route generator should be run again to add missing routes. I must confess that when I used the generator in the past, sometimes not all new routes weren't generated and/or some parameters I added previously to the old routes were reset. But, you must experiment new versions of Rocrail as a new generator has been rewritten recently...
3) This one is easy : when you draw straight sections, you may choose "straight, or "direction", or "both direction". The "direction" implies a straight section with a direction arrow, which indicates the direction of traffic. Of course "both direction" means the section is bidirectional. By default, if you don't tell any direction, the section is bidirectional. So, if you have unidirectional traffic is some sections, it is mandatory to use the direction arrow. Depending of these directions the amount of routes generated is not obviously the same. In Rocrail, each route is unidirectional, so if you have bi-directional sections twice the amount of routes must be generated.

Let's have a simple example: a single oval and a station with two parallel tracks delimited by a couple of switches: B100 is station lane 1, direction from right to left (put a direction arrow in Block B100), B200 is station lane 2, direction from left to right (put a direction arrow in Block B200), B300 is the single lane representing the rest of the oval (either put a double-arrow somewhere in the oval -more for understanding, or don't put it as it is the default).
UserPostedImage
The routes generated are : B100->B300 (counter clockwise), B300->B100 (counter clockwise), B200->B300 (clockwise) and B300->B200 (clockwise). NO routes are generated for B300->B100 clockwise, as the direction arrow in B100 prevents it. Same rule apply (NO route) for B300->B200 counter clockwise due to the direction arrow in B200.
See my post #336 in Trossingen https://www.marklin-user...ossingen.aspx#post389397 for the synoptic with direction arrows, which describes which blocks are unidirectional or bidirectional.
4) go there: http://rocrail.net/software/rocrail-snapshot/ and load the version corresponding to your OS.
5) As a quick answer I'd say it's an old explanation. As the generator will provides automatically all links between blocks, this sentence seems to me to be a bit obsolete.

Hope you'll find some answers to your questions.
In case you need it, i can provide you my configuration for "Trossingen" (only 2 xml files, not so big)

Cheers
FAbrice
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#3 Posted : 25 June 2013 23:13:28(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Hi again Rinus,

Just a complement to point 5), 'cause while rereading now my answer with less hurry, this answer is not complete.

5) a) When you use the feature 'analyze', then it generates all routes that link each block. No need to create the routes manually which link the blocks together...because it's already done by the generator.
5) b) But one thing remains to be done (generally), it's the assignment of the events to the blocks, depending on the various routes. I've said "generally" because I've never tried to setup block events before routes are generated.

I've enhanced a bit the example:
UserPostedImage

-2 sensors per block are added.
-more direction arrows added in B100 & B200 (if not, 6 routes are generated Confused , instead of 4 Cool )
-the 4 routes are generated

You have now to assign each event (associated to a sensor) in each block, depending on the routes
To ease the process, use the generic routes called "all" and "all-reverse"; "all" means routes entering from the "+" side of the block & "all-reverse" means routes entering from the other side of the block.

Results with pictures:

UserPostedImage
this one is straightforward: one route only in the "all-reverse" direction; s100-2 is associated to "enter" event; s100-1 is associated to "in" event; for "all" direction, sensors & events are empty (not shown)

UserPostedImage
this one is also straightforward: one route only in the normal direction; s200-1 is associated to "enter" event; s200-2 is associated to "in" event; for "all-reverse" direction, sensors & events are empty (not shown)

UserPostedImage
now the trick is here; as B300 is bidirectional, you must enter data for "all" and "all-reverse", and swap the meanings of each sensor

UserPostedImage
for the opposite direction, meaning of sensors are swapped

Cheers
Fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline Rinus  
#4 Posted : 26 June 2013 21:19:27(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi Fabrice,

Outstanding! iIve been reading your replies and they help me a lot. Will implement them next weekend.

One other question. As you might know Im using Uhlenbrock Lissy as sensors. Ive got them working. they detact a train and the specific sensor shows up in Rocview and Rocrail server. there is hwoever one problem: the sensor on rocview turns red at occupation (which is good) but does not automaticaly turn to normal again after the sensor is free.

Do you know how to arange this?

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 26 June 2013 21:27:18(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: Rinus Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice,

Outstanding! iIve been reading your replies and they help me a lot. Will implement them next weekend.

One other question. As you might know Im using Uhlenbrock Lissy as sensors. Ive got them working. they detact a train and the specific sensor shows up in Rocview and Rocrail server. there is hwoever one problem: the sensor on rocview turns red at occupation (which is good) but does not automaticaly turn to normal again after the sensor is free.

Do you know how to arange this?

Rinus


HI Rinus,

To be honest, I know nothing about Lissy sensors, so I can't help you on that topic...
Try to scan Rocrail forum and/or post a query...

Cheers
fabrice
Offline Rinus  
#6 Posted : 29 June 2013 16:47:14(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi Fabrice,

Do you have to asign al individual track pieces to a block?

UserPostedImage

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#7 Posted : 29 June 2013 17:45:57(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Rinus,

..No, never ! only remove 4 straight tracks to insert the block, and that's it !

Remember, it's only a synoptic, it's NOT a track plan! It's not useful to put 10 or 20 pieces of straight tracks to delimit a block.
See there : http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=goldenrules-en

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline Rinus  
#8 Posted : 01 July 2013 21:34:32(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi all,

Spent most of the weekend reworking my rocrail plan.

Reworked the blocks ... adressed the level conectors ... updated rocrail ... reworked the entire plan on efficiency ...

Unfortunately in the proces I did some damage to the plan (copy and paste) so I lost quite a few configs for the sensors and switches.

So I need to re-configurate some sensors, switches, signals before I can do the auto generate routes.

Here are the results...

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Some questions that remain:
If a block is to short for a train to stop, do you specify that with the option "wait - no"?
In case of linking a signal to a block, does one enter the signal at the end of a block or before the block begins?

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#9 Posted : 01 July 2013 22:39:13(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Rinus,

1) Generally, if a block is too short for a train to stop...then it's not a block ! The concept of block is a section of tracks protected by a signal at the end of this block, followed by another block and so on... If the block B is followed by a block B+1 and the block B+1 is not empty, then a train entering block B must stop at the end of block B.
Having said that, I know there is a special feature called "block groups & critical sections" (see http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=blockgroups-en ) you can use in some special cases. I've never used it before, so you'll have to carefully read the doc and experiment...

The "no-wait" option for a block means "don't stop if next block is empty".

2) In my understanding, a signal associated to block B is located at the end of a block (roughly speaking, where the "in" sensor is located). It protects the exit of the block. The entrance of block B is protected by exit signal of block B-1.

HTH
Cheers
fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline Rinus  
#10 Posted : 04 July 2013 09:33:15(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi fabrice,

Thank you again!

When I ran the track analyzer yesterday evening the only issues that occured where signals and switches with no adress (no motorola adress but port, bus, adress...Cursing Cursing Cursing Cursing ). I'll fix that this weekend and the try to auto generate some routes.

Regarding the signalling I see it the same way. However I noticed that sometimes it is seen the other way around: signal at block start guarding the entry of a block. Signal at block end however is more logical practical.

Concerning the block definition I now try to define every track between two switches as a block. Perhaps it would be an option not to do that and let rocrail sort this herself?

One new question: Whats your set up in stations? How do you define that certain trains stop and wait for lets say a minute? With the 'wait' function?

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#11 Posted : 04 July 2013 20:30:53(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: Rinus Go to Quoted Post


...
Concerning the block definition I now try to define every track between two switches as a block. Perhaps it would be an option not to do that and let rocrail sort this herself?

One new question: Whats your set up in stations? How do you define that certain trains stop and wait for lets say a minute? With the 'wait' function?

Rinus


Hi Rinus,

1) About defining blocks for each set of tracks between switches : you may do it, but my advice would be "stay with the current set of defined blocks, and experiment the behavior in automatic mode"; then if you're not satisfied, you may add later new blocks, and regenerate new routes consequently. The drawback may be "too much blocks, not enough smooth movement of the trains", but it is also linked to the number of trains you expect to run simultaneous...the only rule is to experiment to find the right balance between number of blocks and number of trains...

1bis) By the way, don't forget when you'll add supplementary blocks that each new block must have at least one sensor. If not, the block is useless.

2) Yes, you're right, the "wait section" in the "details" tab of a block will allow you to specify a wait time (fixed, or random, or no wait, or a wait time associated to a loco - see loco properties for the later). See http://wiki.rocrail.net/....php?id=block-details-en and http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=loc-details-en

Have fun
Fabrice
Offline Rinus  
#12 Posted : 03 August 2013 21:20:07(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi all,

tried to go automatic mode today, but the first attempt failed ... Crying

This is what happend:
1. i positioned a train on the track near the sensor fo the 'in' event of a block
2. registered the train to the block and the block turned red
3. pressed auto mode button in rocview
4. double clicked on the occupied block for 'start'
5. I saw in rocview that a reservation for a route was made (yellow path to next block)
6. after several moments the train went off (Laugh )
7. passed the next block and kept un running .....

During this brief moment I noticed that once the train had left the firt block nothing happenend in rocview. Not even when the next block was reached. The initial block remained occupied.

Very strange especially since in hand mode the occupancy of blocks changed as expected.

Any idea what I did wrong??

BTW i also experienced some problems with the server which I posted on the rocrail forum. I did not start up any more.

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#13 Posted : 04 August 2013 08:54:17(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Rinus,

Well, I can't help you a lot as I don't have a layout at hand...It's only from my memories...
1. OK. The train/loco must makes the in sensor "active". Be sure "Auto" mode is off.
2. OK. You drag the loco from the loco list into the block
3. OK. When looking into the server window, you should see many lines scrolling describing the signals to be set in "red" position
4. OK. Personally, I use a right click into the block, the select "start loco", but the double-click should operate in the same way
5. OK, fine
6. How long does it take to start ? Is it because you have set a random timer for the block (see "details" tab for the block). If yes, set a "fixed" wait of 5 sec. just to test...
7. OK... Does a new route has been set to yellow to reach block B+2 (B is the start block, B+1 is the next block) ?

Some (possible?) explanation for the red color of the start block which remains a bit longer than expected: The start block will become "clear" only when the "in" sensor of block B+1 will be reached. See http://wiki.rocrail.net/...hp?id=sensors_and_blocks and look at the "event table" for the "in" sensor. This behavior is clearly stated...

I've also seen in rocrail forum you've sorted out your server problem . Fine !

HTH
Fabrice

...Mmmh. Just seen your second thread if RR forum. Which blocks are "start block" (B) and "next block" (B+1) (and possible "next-next block"(B+2)) ?
Are the sensors OK for these 3 blocks ? Do you see the state of the sensors changing in the server log ? Do at least one route exist for going from B+1 to B+2 ?
Offline Rinus  
#14 Posted : 04 August 2013 10:23:44(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Rinus,

Well, I can't help you a lot as I don't have a layout at hand...It's only from my memories...
1. OK. The train/loco must makes the in sensor "active". Be sure "Auto" mode is off.
2. OK. You drag the loco from the loco list into the block
3. OK. When looking into the server window, you should see many lines scrolling describing the signals to be set in "red" position
4. OK. Personally, I use a right click into the block, the select "start loco", but the double-click should operate in the same way
5. OK, fine
6. How long does it take to start ? Is it because you have set a random timer for the block (see "details" tab for the block). If yes, set a "fixed" wait of 5 sec. just to test...
7. OK... Does a new route has been set to yellow to reach block B+2 (B is the start block, B+1 is the next block) ?

Some (possible?) explanation for the red color of the start block which remains a bit longer than expected: The start block will become "clear" only when the "in" sensor of block B+1 will be reached. See http://wiki.rocrail.net/...hp?id=sensors_and_blocks and look at the "event table" for the "in" sensor. This behavior is clearly stated...

I've also seen in rocrail forum you've sorted out your server problem . Fine !

HTH
Fabrice

...Mmmh. Just seen your second thread if RR forum. Which blocks are "start block" (B) and "next block" (B+1) (and possible "next-next block"(B+2)) ?
Are the sensors OK for these 3 blocks ? Do you see the state of the sensors changing in the server log ? Do at least one route exist for going from B+1 to B+2 ?


Hi fabrice,

Thank you for your response. I've also posted in the RR forum. Last night I really want to solve this.

I'll have a closer look at the set-up of the (Lissy) sensors. I think I did something wrong there.

Allthough the sensors detect the train (seen in the server info) this information seems not to result in a action/status change of the blocks.

I'll keep u posted.

Rinus
Offline French_Fabrice  
#15 Posted : 04 August 2013 14:31:01(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,489
Location: Lyon, France
Rinus,

Had a quick glance on your xml file...

A lot of routes are missing (only 24 found) !!! for instance, no route from "innsbruck 1+" (and for each innsbruck-x) to "innsbruck uit"; no route to/from Steinbach; no route to/from St Jodok, etc....
You should regenerate with the "analyze" the missing routes...It may be (part of) the explanation...

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline Rinus  
#16 Posted : 04 August 2013 14:55:04(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Rinus,

Had a quick glance on your xml file...

A lot of routes are missing (only 24 found) !!! for instance, no route from "innsbruck 1+" (and for each innsbruck-x) to "innsbruck uit"; no route to/from Steinbach; no route to/from St Jodok, etc....
You should regenerate with the "analyze" the missing routes...It may be (part of) the explanation...

Cheers
Fabrice


I know. Uploaded the wrong xml Blushing
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