Hi Alex,

Welcome to the forum.

When using digital there is no need to use the catenary to power the trains. You can use the normal method of wiring to the track and using the catenary just for show. This is because for a digital you need a good contact between the decoder in the locomotive and the control unit, and the catenary isn't the best option for this*. You do not need your different locomotives on different circuits as you did with analogue operation.

Regards

Daniell

* Official advice from Märklin

Good point John, I'd never considered it like that...

I'd always taken it as official advice from Märklin electrical manuals that you shouldn't do it, I suppose it is a "one or the other idea"... When I get some catenary (after I finish my BCom) I'll give it a try!

Daniell

The operation of catenary with modern digital locomotives is not recommended for the following reasons:
1) Operation of the catenary uses a smaller contact surface than the average third rail slider, which can result in intermittent contact. This intermittent contact can result in the locomotive switching to programming mode, possibly resulting in collision or other such accident on the layout.
2) Because digital operation requires a constant higher voltage than normal analog operation, this can also cause overheating of the pantograph and the wires attached to it, possibly also damaging the circuit board.

A number of newer models are not designed for use with catenary and have pantographs that are not equipped for current conducting.

Alex, if you have decided to use Maerklin track, you may want to equip the layout with DC catenary, which would enable you to simultaneously operate DC electric Loks on your layout as well.

If you are still intent on using the catenary to provide power for a Maerklin digital system, you may wish to look into the possibility of providing a lower voltage so that the output is 14-16V instead of 19-22V.
I have run the 6021 with reduced voltage. I do not know how the newer mobile station or central station will run if powered with less than the recommended voltage.
Some modellers using catenary have reinforced the wipers on the pantographs and added wires to lead the power from the wiper to the inside of the lok. Others use both pantographs simultaneously to obtain a better contact even though this is not prototypical for most countries.

The other downside to using catenary only is that it complicates the provision of power to coach lighting, cars with taillights, etc.

If you decide to power the layout from the rails, you can have a catenary in place (non powered, analog, or DC). I think that Noch has a micro bulb that can be wired and placed on the pantograph to simulate the sparks that occur on a real catenary.

Regards

Mike C

Thanks guys for your recommendations!

do any of you have any ideas on how to wire a mobile station to the catenary, and have you had any experiences with viessmann catenary vs. marklin? It looks like viessmann are easier to put up on a layout, and a little cheaper. Also, does anyone have any type of instructions on how to catenary a turnout? I'm not really sure how it would work.

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate it
Alex

Mike wrote:

The operation of catenary with modern digital locomotives is not recommended for the following reasons:
1) Operation of the catenary uses a smaller contact surface than the average third rail slider, which can result in intermittent contact. This intermittent contact can result in the locomotive switching to programming mode, possibly resulting in collision or other such accident on the layout.

Mike, I have been running locos from the overhead system now for 2 years and I'm sure you have seen my layout, your scenario has never happened to me and so far I've observed the characteristics of the pantographs (contact) have never had an issue with.

2) Because digital operation requires a constant higher voltage than normal analog operation, this can also cause overheating of the pantograph and the wires attached to it, possibly also damaging the circuit board.

no evidence of this at all and I don't know where you get these information from.

I must point out some pantographs are not suited for an overhead system, e.g. my Roco Austrian Luxury set Rh 4010 and I'm going to change the pantograph, any pantograph Märklin produced even from the 60's are suitable.
You quite rightly mentioned some locos do not have an electrical contact to the pantograph and some locos have electrically operated pantos (ESU, Roco)

Tiono,

I'm glad you've switched over to Sommerfeldt and I didn't realize the early Märklin system didn't work for you, the first time a ran locos from the catanary was in 1984 at an exhibition with the Märklin overhead (digital), so I'm going back a few years, to demonstrate it is ok and you don't have to fear all these unfounded remarks.
it is irrelevant whether your track or your wires are dirty or oxidised, it is a condition one has to live with and sooner than later correcting it but in comparison, it doesn't make the overhead wires worse than the middle track.
My overhead system (Sommerfeldt) was constructed between 1980-1984, at a later stage it had been stored at our factory next to an acidic atmosphere and the wires got terrible oxidised, these wires are still functional today after constructing a sandpaper panto and going over and over it cleaned itself again.

So with over 30 years experience, I think I can put my 2 cents to this topic to advise others or at least make some important points about the reliability, durability and
sturdiness of a properly constructed catanary.
if there is any failure, I can assure you its not the wires, not the heat, not the panto but consideration has to be given to locos which aren't suited for it.

I would be the first person to advise someone if I think with my 50 years experience there is something wrong or it wouldn't work but I'm also the first person to advise you plastic housing aren't that bad what they used to be,
Pantos need the same care as sliders and pantos are sometimes made of an inferior material than sliders and the fact is there aren't many manufacturers who make proper catanary systems and the rest is telling customers not to use the system as a power supply. some of my locos the panto wiper has to be cleaned on a regular basis just wiping over with a fine sandpaper.

Mike wrote:

The other downside to using catenary only is that it complicates the provision of power to coach lighting, cars with taillights, etc.

please explain

for those who have interior lights but don't like to use a slider for each carriage may use a wire or a electrical coupling (provision for one wire) to connect the middle contact through the whole train

in most cases interior lights or the marker lights are fed from a slider , my interior lights/markerlights are fed from the loco's decoder via 4 pin electrical couplings and this may be for some to expensive or unacceptable because you wouldn't be able to unhook each carriage.

We all have our own ideas and solutions to problems, I'm for one, if there is a problem, find the problem and fix it; sometimes we are faced with complications and this forum provides all in all a genuine support for those who need help.

John

in most cases interior lights or the marker lights are fed from a slider , my interior lights/markerlights are fed from the loco's decoder via 4 pin electrical couplings and this may be for some to expensive or unacceptable because you wouldn't be able to unhook each carriage.


John

Could you explain this in better detail?

Who makes the 4 pin couplings and where do you get them? Are they better than the M electrical coach couplings?

Since I use circuit tracks for the time being I am extremely limited on my ability to use sliders for interior lighting

Thanks

Laxman

Hi!
The Märklin catenary is made by Viessmann, but Märklin should be easier to install if you want to use power from the catenary (with Viessmann masts, catenary is mounted on isolating material and you have to add Y wires for safe contact; "Märklin" masts have conducting pins giving safe contact also without Y wire).

Another reason why you should not use the catenary live on a digital sytem is that it acts as an antenna more easily than the centre rail or studs, which is shielded to a certain extent by the two ground tracks on either side of it.

This makes it more likely that stray currents be induced in the signal path from other sources, creating interference which can affect the function of the decoder.

another myth theory, I like to know how many more members are disputing or challenging the overhead system in conjunction with a digital system, I have 15 locos running in close proximity and had no function failures of any decoder unless the cause Ray is exploiting comes from an unknown source within the decoder.

if anybody thinks or likes to pursue the installation of a catanary it would have to be done in the same manner as you connect plugs and sockets, Märklin catanary (old), or any connection which has to be tight and functional and in the case of a catanary, a solid contact is neccessary.

Laxman,
the electrical coupling in question comes from Roco and is inserted into any coupling shaft, my interior lights are Led's and there are plenty of them in each carriage (up to 12), they are connected in a series of 3 and therefore need 4 resistors. if you have them all in line they will draw a higher current.

When I connect the Roco coupling to a loco, I make usre there is room for the 4 wires to be accommodated.

1st wire = ESU colour = red for slider
2nd wire = blue = common ground (DC) = flicher free operation of led's
3rd wire = Aux 1 = partly lit interior, e.g. toilets and some compartments, marker light
4th wire = Aux 2 = rest of the interior lights
the reason I've separated the interior lights, there aren't many trains which have all the lights on when going through the country side and you only will find all the light on when going or coming into a station and even than some lights could be off (compartments)
My train consist usually has about 12 to 14 carriages and 6 of these carriages are powered by the loco decoder (72 led's),

the red wire will than provide power for an extra function decoder in the 7th car and this decoder will than supply the rest of the carriages.
a function decoder has normally 4 aux functions, 2 of these Aux functions (Aux 1 + Aux 2) will go to the end of the train, including the last carriage which has the markerlights.
the best way of installing a function decoder is in a bord car or restaurant car and this will hide the decoder completely.
the Aux functions 3 + 4 will than supply light to e.g. restaurant or Bord car, this could be on one hand table lights and interior lights, etc. etc.
one thing is crucial: the connection up to e.g. the restaurant car the only wire to be connected is the red wire otherwise the current will interfere with both decoders and instead of attaching a Roco coupling on both sides you could use a Märklin electrical coupling (1 wire)
the only reason I've added 2 circuits to the interior lights a.) more prototypical and secondly b.) 1 wire would have been unused.
another tip is: when installing the electrical couplings, mark the coupling underneath, I do it with a white marking pen (dot) because the coupling connections, different colour wires will only work if the same colour wire line up. it will not cause any trouble but the carriage which is connected the wrong way there will be no lights for the following carriages.
my wire configuration is as follow:
Roco coupling connected to the right hand side of the carriage: top right pin = red, bottom right pin = blue, left hand top pin = Aux 1, left hand bottom pin = Aux 2.

When installing the interior lights, all wires have to be extended from the left hand coupling to the right hand coupling except the carriages next to each other which has a function decoder (as outlined above). the common wire = all your resistors come of that wire, Aux 1 + Aux 2 your other led connection circuits.

What happens when you've got a push pull train and you have a drivers cab: instead of placing the function decoder into the e.g. Bord or restaurant car the function decoder is placed into drivers cab.
You now have access to the head lights and reversing lights, your Aux function 3 + 4 can e.g. Aux 3 = interior lights and for instance you could have interior light for the drivers cab = Aux 4.
Aux 1 + Aux 2 are now going the opposite way back to the 6th, 5th what ever carriage and the same procedure has to be applied: no connections between these 2 cars only the red wire.

the third option would be ( a bit more expensive) to place a decoder in each carriage, you only would need a single connection (Märklin electrical coupling) but you could a.) use a different function decoder number, b.) use Aux functions for each carriage but this example is for modelers who have their own ideas what they could use these functions for, just another option, e.g. Telex coupling for instance. compartments blinds going up and down, doors open and what ever else you can think of, the sky is the limit

An ESU decoder can easely supply the current for up to 8- 10 carriages (12 led's in each carriage)

regards.,

John

My reason of powering electric locomotive thru catenary:

1. I want to be able to run 2-rail electric locomotives without adding pick-up shoe, which sometimes is not possible due to its undercarriage design. By powering the catenary, I expand my choice of electric locomotives beyond the 3-rail offerings.

2. I hate the screeching noise from the pickup-shoe of some of my Marklin locomotives when passing over K-track turnouts. By removing the pickup shoe of the electric locomotives, at least I have less shoe noise. I have a Marklin #3331 BR-140, converted to digital. Its pick-up shoe emits "tick-tick-tick" sound when running on C-track. I removed the pick-up shoe, powered thru catenary, and that sound disappeared.

3. I'm planning to add a section into my layout, using 2-rail (DC) tracks for realistic appearance without the center-studs. But of course, only electric locomotives will be able to pass this section.

4. I use 4 mobile stations; one unit is supplying power to the 3rd rail (the center-stud), one unit as its slave. One unit is supplying power to the catenary, another one as its slave. (The catenary is isolated from the 3rd rail). Therefore up to four person can control the train concurrently within the same layout (but two of them can only control electric locomotives, and two of them can only control steam locomotives).

Ray,

I respect your comment and we all like to help people with questions or queries.
One also can add to make things more difficult for a person to go along this path by inflicting negative comments about a system which has to have some skills to be able to achieve this goal.
Ray wrote:

It's an extra hassle and an additional failure mechanism. It's just bad practice.

If we don't explore things further we might as well stay with analog and I'm sure there are enough members here which must feel that way by keeping it simple, they don't come across as many problems with digital locos or digital systems.

By adding anything to your layout will cause problems one way or another and the catanary system is part of it and I think the conversation can go from playing with trains, operating trains or enjoying trains as a whole and an enjoyment can mean different things to different modelers.
I've looked at a German modeler living in Florida and he is building this huge layout and he doesn't care whether the layout will ever be finished he just likes building a layout] and he doesn't care how long it takes him to do it.

My interest in the Overhead system came mainly from displaying our layout at exhibitions and it gives onlookers another perspective how locos can be run on a layout, something different and more challenging.

some days I ask myself why have I build such a big layout, why have I installed catanary
and on other days, I say to myself this looks terrific and so does the catanary. I admit it isn't simple but doing it the proper way I haven't had any regrets and it looks like there are others who have gone down that path.
Its like a doctor being a general practitioner or you work as a doctor in the emergency department of a hospital and I'm sure there are other ways of having a simpler choice. there are people who own 8 or more cats and I'm sure there is a simpler way by just owning 1.
to days society is geared not to go outside a square because it is to dangerous, children are mollycoddled, danger signs are on everything these days, not suitable for children under 3 or not recommended under 12 years of age yet we have violent movies on our box every night and they can be watched with the supervision of an adult.
video games are of similar nature, violent scenes but they are suitable for kids under 3 or over because there aren't any parts small or dangerous enough to fall off.
When I advertise my locos on ebay I get a warning sign: not allowed in the USA: ball bearings and one has to explain, the ball bearing is pressed into the brush plate and therefore can't be removed to form a part on its own.

John

Hi!
Those dining cars normally get their power from the loco. The pantograph on the dining car is used only when the train stands still without locomotive. So for prototypically correct operation, you cannot use this pantograph to feed interior lights.

Hi Tom,

I know you are absolutely correct about this, but obviously Marklin bought out the 42173 with continous, non prototypical running in mind

John

Thanks for the info.

I had never really given much thought to lighting the passenger car interiors beyond the simple light's on or off, but now you have definitely piqued my interest with variable lighting options.

In regard to the original discussion of powering the catenary, I am glad to know that it can be done with digital and may have to give it some thought.

When I was a boy, I was always amazed that the M locos could run off the ovhead system. We could not at that time afford any catenary from M, so I tried to make my own getting so far as to make some masts from wooden dowels, then attaching and bending a heavy gauge wire into triangles as the support arms. I could never get a wire adequately attached to the arms I had constructed to be able to get a working catenary. So I did the only thing I could do which was to wrap one end of a long wire around the loco pantograph and attach the other to the red socket of an old blue M transformer and drive the loco partway around the track powered by its pantograph tethered to the transformer by a wire! So I have always wanted to have a layout that I could power the locos from the catenary.

Has anyone ever had a powered catenary and powered middle rail where one was analog and the other digital? Or is that option just really asking for electrical problems and blown digital components?

Laxman

Hi
As a lad I used to run my centre rail constant live and run the lok from the catenary as the slider was broken on my 3011.
This way my coach lights were on all the time.

Mike

For a short while whilst I was in the middle of converting from analogue to digital I ran the track as digital and the catenary as analogue.
I was using an old Marklin CS1 for the digital and a Marklin white transformer 6647 for the catenary.
The rails were a common return for both systems.
It worked well without problems. One important thing to remember though. You MUST hit the stop button on the digital controller and set the transformer to stop before sorting out derailments or putting stock on or off the track. This is because, especially when handling tinplate coaches, it's easy to accidentally brush them against the catenary and the centre studs thus connecting the outputs from the two control systems together. This would not be good for the digital system. I've always assumed this is why Marklin don't recommend it since they have to allow for some of their customers being more 'clumsy' than others.

Now that I've finished converting my electric locos I no longer need to do this. I do still power the catenary as well as the track from my controller though (controller is now an ESU Ecos) and this works fine. I use old and less than perfect M Track and I find the catenary gives a much more reliable pickup than the sliders especially across multiple points and crossings. Most of my eLoks have the sliders removed.

This is not a recommendation - I'm just saying what works for me.

Good luck with whatever you decide. The important thing is to have fun.

Paul

Paul wrote:

Now that I've finished converting my electric locos I no longer need to do this. I do still power the catenary as well as the track from my controller though (controller is now an ESU Ecos) and this works fine. I use old and less than perfect M Track and I find the catenary gives a much more reliable pickup than the sliders especially across multiple points and crossings. Most of my eLoks have the sliders removed.

this is exactly what I found: more reliable.

John

I think a few people have got a common ground without realising it.
If you use the old metal turntable powered from a separate transformer then you will have a common ground since one of the connections from the transformer goes to the base of the turntable to which the track is connected.

Paul

Digital power includes both AC and DC voltage. It is possible that the constant voltage of digital operation can cause the fine pantographs to overheat. That heat can be transmitted by wire to the decoder/IC circuit which can cause damage. On many recent models, the selection of overhead or center rail is accomplished through the selection of jumpers on the PC board. The older loks with manual selection of power source had more wiring, which effectively protected the sensitive parts from heat damage.

I would be cautious about using any modern E-Lok with ESU or other modern decoder and PC board when powered from the catenary.

The other thing to consider is that the modern single arm pantographs are often less stable in 1/87 than the classic scherenstromabnehmer (scissors) pantograph and may have a weak direction where they are more prone to snagging or other incident. The old 7219 was especially problematic for me in the past.

From Experto.de: Oberleitung bei der digitalen Modelleisenbahn
Bei der digital gesteuerten Modelleisenbahn ist die Mehrzugsteuerung hingegen schon "inklusive" und wird durch die Digitalzentrale und die Digitaldecoder (Empfänger) in den Triebfahrzeugen gesteuert.
Zudem ist es generell nicht empfehlenswert, eine digital gesteuerte Modellbahn-Lokomotive über die Oberleitung mit Strom zu versorgen, denn der elektrische Kontakt zwischen der Oberleitung (Fahrdraht) und dem Dachstromabnehmer ist für die zuverlässige Übertragung der digitalen Steuerkommandos einfach zu schlecht.

"Catenary at the digital model railway
In the digitally controlled model railroad the multi-train system is, however, already "inclusive" and is controlled by the digital central station and the digital decoder (receiver) in the locomotives.
In addition, it is generally not recommended to provide a digitally controlled model railway locomotive on the catenary with electricity, because the electrical contact between the overhead line (catenary) and the pantographs is just too bad for the reliable transmission of digital control commands."

Regards

Mike C

Can't we just agree that it's not recommended but some people can do it if they set up the catenary carefully and are willing to take the risk?

I know that John, Tiono and others take great pride in demonstrating that it can be done, but that does not change the facts. There are reasons why Marklin and others don't recommend digital operation by catenary, and these reasons have been discussed here already and are valid. Otherwise why would Marklin make the recommendation? If there was no risk Marklin, I'm sure, would gladly promote it as another advantage of using Marklin over other systems!

The whole point of this thread was to answer Alex's question about the feasability of running digital on the overhead. I feel that he has been given advice which may not be right for someone who is new to Marklin and new to operating with catenary (by his own admission). I sincerely hope that he is not disappointed if his experiments result in failure, or even worse, expensive damage to locos or controllers.

I'm not happy that my sincere advice is belittled and passed off as my being too careful. I wasn't going to post any more in this thread, but Mike's last post reminded me that not all of us are as gung-ho with our expensive models as others obviously are.

...and now I will shut up about it!

After following this topic for some time, I feel I must join the debate, and state from the outset that I agree completely with John.

I have been using the catenary to power my electric locos for over 40 years. When digital came on the scene, I initially followed the advice of Lenz (I chose DCC because I had fitted all my Marklin locos with Hamo magnets back in the 1980's and operated them with DC using an old Hammant & Morgan Duette) and did not attempt to power the locos through the catenary. The locos worked (I was using only 2 rail at the time ( a long story) but they did not run as smoothly or as reliably as they had previously done with the catenary and I was considering giving up DCC.

After some discussions with a retailer at an exhibition in Canberra in 2004, I decided to tr(y powering the locos through the catenary. At the time, I was using the old pressed metal Marklin system which was soldered at the joints due to age and tarnishing/rust. The system worked immediately; the locos ran smoothly and reliably as they had before, with the added advantage of the fine control that is possible with digital/DCC. I was also able to return all my Marklin locos to service.

I have since constructed a new layout which is fitted with Sommerfeldt catenary using Peco track and points. It is a simple layout built for exhibiting and was at the exhibition held by the Marklin Modelers of Sydney at Beecroft in 2012. I decided to use the 0.7mm wire sections for strength as exhibition layouts take quite a pounding when being moved to and from exhibitions. The layout has worked reliably since built. I have experienced none of the problems outlined by Chris, and have not lost any decoders (I use decoders from TCS, Lenz and Trix, but mostly ESU LokPilot III's and IV's) powering locos through the catenary. I can't say the same for 2 rail. I have one HAG Re6/6 that has destroyed 3 decoders while operating in 2 rail format, but I have experienced no problems since I converted it to 3 rail using the catenary 1n 2004.

I recall that Lenz stated in their instructions (I am relying on my memory here) that in some cases, decoders had been destroyed when powered through the catenary because they had received up to double the voltage that they were designed to handle. AS stated above, I have never experienced this or any other problem, and I have often wondered why manufacturers would advise against using the catenary to power trains digitally. I may have an explanation for this,and a way of avoiding it

In the first half of the 1990's, Marklin introduced a new model of the SBB Ae6/6. As the prototype Ae6/6 is a particular favourite of mine, I acquired both the green version locn No 11414 and the red version Loco No 11425. Both locos were fitted with Hamo magnets and operate on DC through the catenary as with all my electric locos. Their performance was terrible, and they would not run smoothly at all. I was unable to improve their running qualities, and they sent most of the next 10 years in their boxes. I did notice one day while operating them in dull light that there was a blue arcing of electricity at the elbow joint on the pantographs of both locos, and I seem to recall that the pantographs were hot to touch.

After I had converted most of my electric locos to operate on DCC through the catenary in 2004, I decided to have another attempt with these two Ae6/6's. At about this time, I had become aware of the benefits of using graphite to improve electrical conductivity, particularly when used for 2 rail DCC. Conscious of the warning given by Lenz, and the arcing I had observed in the pantographs of these two locos some years previously, I wondered of the problems being experienced in using digital/DCC through the catenary could be caused by electrical resistance in some pantographs. After I had installed a decoder in the green loco, a placed a small drop of oil mixed with graphite of every joint of both pantographs. I then placed it on the track and it ran perfectly for the first time since I had acquired it 10-12 years previuously. The red loco was then converted and it also ran perfectly. I have had no problems with these locos since.

Why I had this problem with these 2 locos, but none of the other 30 or so other electric locos I own, I do not know. I believe that it would only be an occasional problem with some pantograhs. Others, like John, may never experience this problem ever. As a precaution, I have given all the pantographs of my electric locos the graphite treatment, and I have had no further problems.

I would never consider powering any of my electric locos other than using digital/DCC through the catenary.

Geoff

Edited by user 30 March 2013 11:11:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified