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Offline marklinboy  
#1 Posted : 23 October 2012 13:33:33(UTC)
marklinboy

Australia   
Joined: 23/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4
First post and very impressed with this forum. Took my 1960's Marklin set out of box and became very nostalgic! Want to set up a decent layout for (future) grandchildren. Have looked at many threads and topics on this wonderful forum, but could not find a thread/threads to answer my questions. If these topics are covered somewhere on the forum, I would be thankful being directed to them. I believe I have the "M" system. Where can I find info re the following and please excuse my absolute ignorance:
What is C, K, M etc?
What is R1, R2, R3 etc?
How does one convert "M" to digital/electronic or whatever?

Maybe a "newbie" thread could help other "oldies" like myself, without having to post stupid questions which are common sense to the very knowledgable forum members! By the way, I live 500km from Perth in a very small community, so have no access to possible clubs.

Cheers, Werner
Offline kbvrod  
#2 Posted : 23 October 2012 14:04:17(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Werner,all,

Welcome to the forum!ThumpUp


>What is C, K, M etc?<

These are the different types of track M produces.
C: new sectional track,plastic roadbed
K: track without roadbed,sectional but with also flex(able) track
M: the track in your 60's set!metal roadbed


>What is R1, R2, R3 etc?<

R stands for radius of the curve sections of track


>How does one convert "M" to digital/electronic or whatever?<

It depends on the loco!

Dr Dirt
Offline Ian555  
#3 Posted : 23 October 2012 14:06:47(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,947
Location: Scotland
Hi Werner,

Welcome to the forum. ThumpUp

Ian.

Offline kweekalot  
#4 Posted : 23 October 2012 14:24:15(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,218
Location: Holland
Hi Werner,

Let me also welcome you to the forum.
See two pictures of K and C track. (C track has a plastic bedding, K rail hasn't).

Marco

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 23 October 2012 14:32:43(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,419
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Werner,

Welcome to the forum.

Can I recommend that you get yourself a current Marklin catalogue? Not only will you be able to drool over the latest models, but there is also a wealth of information on the different track types, radii, and accessories, as well as good information on digital operation and kits available for converting older locos to digital.

When I came back to the hobby in the mid 1980s I started by getting the latest catalogue at the time. I have never looked back! In the intervening years I have only missed one year, when I was unable to get the catalogue before they sold out.

You can get a catalogue from any good dealer, including a large selection of online shops.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline GlennM  
#6 Posted : 23 October 2012 15:25:12(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,763
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Hi Werner

Welcome to the Forum.

If your train set is from the 60's then it would normally be M track, as Marklin sets with K track came post 60's (I stand to be corrected...........)

M, K and C are all different tracks made by marklin; UserPostedImage

M Track and it's variants;

UserPostedImage

K track

UserPostedImage

C Track

UserPostedImage


The R1, R2. R3, are the radii of the curved track made for each of the track types. This can best be seen on the image below for the C track system as its colour into different radii. So R1 is the tightest radii, and so on;

C Track Radii

UserPostedImage

K Track Radii

UserPostedImage

M Track radii

UserPostedImage


You will note that not every system supports the different radii. This may affect you decision to what track to build your layout.

Digital is a massive subject and cannot be answered in a simple post, but I would offer the following thoughts;

There is analog running, delta running and digital running. Every track system offers Digital operation. Digital and analog cannot be run on the same track at the same time. On the same track you can have analog and delta OR delta and digital. You cannot have analog and digital running on the same track simultaneously. The old 'blue transformers' will blow your digital chips. It is possible to run analog trains on a digital layout with limited functions, and it is possible to run some digital locos in a analog mode with modern transformers, again with limited functionality. As a rule of thumb, it is generally accepted that analog trains should be run with analog transformers, and digital set-up with digital controllers. Delta locos have limited digital capability and can be switched between the two systems inside.

Old analog locos can be updated with digital chips making them digital. They can also be updated with new motors as well. This can be done professionally or if you have the knowledge and skills by the individual. You will of course need a digital controller and power source to operate the digital loco once converted.

I hope this is helpful

BR

Glenn
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline GlennM  
#7 Posted : 23 October 2012 15:27:32(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,763
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Werner,

Welcome to the forum.

Can I recommend that you get yourself a current Marklin catalogue? Not only will you be able to drool over the latest models, but there is also a wealth of information on the different track types, radii, and accessories, as well as good information on digital operation and kits available for converting older locos to digital.

When I came back to the hobby in the mid 1980s I started by getting the latest catalogue at the time. I have never looked back! In the intervening years I have only missed one year, when I was unable to get the catalogue before they sold out.

You can get a catalogue from any good dealer, including a large selection of online shops.




Ray,

I am still drooling over the old catalogues..........................Drool Drool Drool Drool Drool
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by GlennM
Offline river6109  
#8 Posted : 23 October 2012 15:36:12(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,543
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Werner,

Welcome to the forum, I'm too from Western Australia.

My concern is the age group you represent and going into digital may be a long and hard road to follow.

it depends on how much or how willingly your brain is taken on new tasks and to tell you the truth the digital world of model trains is sometimes confusing, contradictive and hard to understand.
on the other hand it isn't that hard to get into it but knowledge does help or past experience.

Taken your train set from the 60's out of the box,. one can say your youth years have come to life again and if you like to continue down the path with analog locos, metal tracks (Metall Schienen in German) or K-tracks (Kunststoff Schienen (plastic tracks) or C-track (Click connection), so this C-track is already using the english version click instead of Klick (German)

the metall track was first introduced and than got updated with a modern track system (k-track), this system consisted of sleek turnouts and wider circles (radius) but it had the geometry from the m-track system as well and yopu had tracks which combined the 2 track connections.
C-track again had part of the geometry of the m-track system but again wider curves and radius and sleeker turnouts had been introduced.
the first batches of c-track used to brake apart and lots of them are still on the market.(be aware)


everything you had in the 60's is still available or can be bought most the time on ebay germany.
When you go into digital a lot of questions have to be answered before you venture into this expensive extension of the hobby.

it depends whether or not you think it is necessairy to go that far and if you do it depends how many locos you have or will be having when the proposed layout is or becoming reality.

there are several ways of starting or getting into digital, the cheapest way is buying a starter set and this usually supplies you with tracks, turnouts, a loco and carriages (many chioces) and a command station.

A command station is like a computer and this with digital decoders and converted locos from analog to digital (permananet magnet) you will be able to program decoders so they are recognized by your command station.

Command station very in price and capacity, it you're thinking of a small layout a mobile station 2 will do the job if you thi9nking of a medium layout a commenad station is the way to go (CS 2)

When we talk about command stations there are several different manufacturers who with their own technology produce decoders and command station so they can talk to each other in their own secret language.

Märklin has for years what we call a secret protocol, nobody else can program the decoders except Märklin whereas others opened up their protocol and you are abel to change the decoders behaviour (what we call CV's) V's have been laid down by the governing body by the National Model Railway Association (NMRA)/
There are other players or producers of command stations and decoders (incl. sound decoders) such as ESU, Zimo, Viessmann, Tans and others.

all these companies are compatible with the Märklin system.
Lately Märklin has bought out Sound decoders which you can now program (a turn around after many years of cloed doors)

When it comes to locos and rolling stock ther are aslo other manufacturers who make locos for the 3 rail system, such as Roco, Rivarossy, Liliput, Piko, ESU and Brawa (Hag is another one but they are at present revamping the company with a new owner) and other smaller producers.
with command stations such as Mobile station 2 and the CS 2 there is a price difference, the latter one up to 3 times as much as the MS2.
CS2 is abbreviated and stands for Command Station 2, ESU command staion is ECoS and etc. etc.
As you can see there is quite a lot to take in and absorb and reading stuff as getting a catalogue so you get aquainted with all the things happen in the model train world.
google is always a good start to serve the net and find or search for things

Have fun

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline BrandonVA  
#9 Posted : 23 October 2012 16:32:42(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Hello Marklinboy,

To expand on some of the previous answers:

R1, R2, R3:

As Dr. D said, they are the radius. R1 is the tightest/sharpest curve, and it moves to larger from there.

Regarding converting to digital:

Traditionally old Marklin trains ran on analog, meaning that if you turn the knob on the transformer, it gives more power to the track and the locomotive goes faster. It is possible to operate locomotives, signals, turnouts, etc digitally. However, you can also set up a hybrid environment (analog signals, digital locomotives, etc). I mention this to bring up the various aspects that could be "digitialized". As far as locomotives, a decoder kit would need to be installed, and the track/layout would need to be connected to a digital controller (such as Marklin Mobilstation (MS or MS2), Centralstation (CS/CS2), etc).

With that said, I should note that digital locomotives will operate fine under analog control, they just won't do any of the nifty digital stuff (independent headlight control, sounds, etc). With a digital layout you can start and stop locos on the track without killing power to that section of the track, but under analog control you treat them as you would an analog locomotive from a control perspective. Note that the old blue transformers are not good for using digital locomotives under analog control, so if you plan on acquiring some new locos, make sure to get a new transformer as well.

There is much more to say about digital, but I hope this servers as a good start.

-Brandon
Offline Webmaster  
#10 Posted : 23 October 2012 18:13:19(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,838
Well, with M and K-track there is actually one radius smaller than R1 - the "industrial radius" with 4 curved track pieces making up a half circle... Shown with the 2210 & 5120 track in the diagrams posted.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline GlennM  
#11 Posted : 23 October 2012 18:16:53(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,763
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Well, with M and K-track there is actually one radius smaller than R1 - the "industrial radius" with 4 curved track pieces making up a half circle... Shown with the 2210 & 5120 track in the diagrams posted.


This is 100% correct, but I did not mention it, because a lot of modern Marklin items including the coaches need a minimum operating radius of 360mm, which is R1.

BR

Glenn
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline BrandonVA  
#12 Posted : 23 October 2012 18:23:54(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Well, with M and K-track there is actually one radius smaller than R1 - the "industrial radius" with 4 curved track pieces making up a half circle... Shown with the 2210 & 5120 track in the diagrams posted.


This is 100% correct, but I did not mention it, because a lot of modern Marklin items including the coaches need a minimum operating radius of 360mm, which is R1.

BR

Glenn


I agree, I would avoid or carefully limit the industrial radius stuff if you can, take it from someone with experience :)
Offline hennabm  
#13 Posted : 23 October 2012 18:52:54(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,924
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi Werner

Again welcomeThumpUp

In M track there is also a larger radius made only for a few years but can be found on ebay.de. It is expensive but very well made with individual sleepers and gives a further dimension to staying with M track.

It is the 3900 series. There is also the 3800 series which (correct me if I'm wrong folks) is roughly equal to the 5200 series.

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline kbvrod  
#14 Posted : 23 October 2012 20:55:03(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: marklinboy Go to Quoted Post
First post and very impressed with this forum. Took my 1960's Marklin set out of box and became very nostalgic! Want to set up a decent layout for (future) grandchildren. Have looked at many threads and topics on this wonderful forum, but could not find a thread/threads to answer my questions. If these topics are covered somewhere on the forum, I would be thankful being directed to them. I believe I have the "M" system. Where can I find info re the following and please excuse my absolute ignorance:
What is C, K, M etc?
What is R1, R2, R3 etc?
How does one convert "M" to digital/electronic or whatever?

Maybe a "newbie" thread could help other "oldies" like myself, without having to post stupid questions which are common sense to the very knowledgable forum members! By the way, I live 500km from Perth in a very small community, so have no access to possible clubs.

Cheers, Werner


Offline Webmaster  
#15 Posted : 23 October 2012 21:04:44(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,838
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
I agree, I would avoid or carefully limit the industrial radius stuff if you can, take it from someone with experience :)


Very useful with a 3029 and a couple of 4040:s, though...BigGrin

Nice to squeeze in as a small mountain line with short loks & wagens... So I think it still has its use for special purposes...
But for the main layout where the big trains run - a clear no-no...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline marklinboy  
#16 Posted : 24 October 2012 00:56:54(UTC)
marklinboy

Australia   
Joined: 23/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4
Thanks for all the useful replies. I think I will stick to what I've got, ie M tracks and analogue. I have roughly 150 track pieces and 2 locos. One loco came with the original beginners box while the other one is a "steam producing" loco. I can't seem to find a model number on the locos, but will look again (with a magnifying glass)! I will need to get the locos serviced and probably need a new transformer - I recall the transformer giving trouble. I read on the forum that the blue transformers have some issues, so, before I get hold of a new catalogue, are there "better" transformers nowadays? Speaking of catalogue, I found the "Marklin HO-Gleisanlgen furM Gleise 5100, 5200" 0309. Amasing that one keeps this stuff for 40+ years! Thanks again for your replies. Werner
Offline Chris6382chris  
#17 Posted : 24 October 2012 05:29:17(UTC)
Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,094
Location: Middle of the US
With regard to the blue metal transformers the issue is simply age and the components within breaking down with age. If you are going to stick with analog operation a simple blue plastic or white plastic Marklin AC transformer will be fine and take care of your needs, you can find these at very cheap prices on eBay.

Chris
Offline kweekalot  
#18 Posted : 24 October 2012 08:58:11(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,218
Location: Holland
We use daily the first blue transformer from 1949, the 280A (1st version) and it has no problem what so ever and works like new.
Even if the transfo is on all day, it doesn't become warm.
I don't see the problem why not to use such a transformer. Confused


UserPostedImage
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Offline hennabm  
#19 Posted : 24 October 2012 09:03:12(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,924
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi all

I agree with Marco - an older transformer in good condition is just as good.

Mie
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 24 October 2012 09:59:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,499
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
I don't see the problem why not to use such a transformer. Confused
My blue transformers have a reversing voltage of about 30 V (too much for some digital decoders) while the grey ones have a reversing voltage of about 25 V.
The grey ones switch off within a second if a short circuit occurs, the blue ones take up to 8 seconds.

Do not use blue transformers with digital locos (unless you checked the reversing voltage). Faster switch-off with new transformers can save other items if something goes wrong.

I don't see a problem for me as long as you use blue transformers with your trains (not my trains).Wink
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kweekalot  
#21 Posted : 24 October 2012 10:32:48(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,218
Location: Holland
For 4 months now we (me and my 2 boys) use daily 4 digital loco's with the 1949 280A transformer (3x Marklin and 1x Piko) and no problemo at all.

I will one of these days measure the (reverse) voltage.
Offline hennabm  
#22 Posted : 24 October 2012 12:05:24(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,924
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi all

I wouldn't use the old blue ones for digital - only for analog.

If ever I was to go digital Blink I would go for the "proper" transformers for the systems.

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
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H0
Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 24 October 2012 12:29:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,499
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
For 4 months now we (me and my 2 boys) use daily 4 digital loco's with the 1949 280A transformer (3x Marklin and 1x Piko) and no problemo at all.
Some folks say that 6090/6090x decoders are robust enough to withstand the reversing voltage, while mfx decoders (at least the first generation) are said to be more sensitive. Your four locos may not be representative (no ref. numbers given).
Voltages vary a lot between individual transformers, the mains voltage varies (+/- 10 %) - and finally it depends on how long the reversing voltage is applied. It even makes a difference whether the transformer feeds only a test oval or a large layout with some burning lamps (a constant transformer load will lead to a lower reversing voltage).

You should measure the reversing voltage with only the volt meter connected to the transformer.
28 V is the specification for current ESU decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#24 Posted : 24 October 2012 12:40:19(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,543
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi all,

a little warning:

electrical power of 110-240 Volt can kill

The famous blue transformer: there is nothing wrong with any transformer except:

the age and the materials they used in those days, metal housing, cord, earthing etc etc.

If you had your transformer from new it would be worthwhile to check it out by a qualified electrician to make sure everything is still in working order, regardless if it happens to work.

second hand blue transformers:

I'm surprised there is no law of preventing second hand elctrical goods to be sold.

If for instance an electrical item is auctioned off, the wire or cord is cut off to prevent purcvhasers using the electrical equipment.

Buying one second hand you have no idea about the history or the treatment this transformer had.

My strong advice is: stay away from it or make sure you've got a life safety switch installed at your meterbox

Don't treat electricity as a toy.

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline hxmiesa  
#25 Posted : 24 October 2012 17:19:02(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,703
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
For 4 months now we (me and my 2 boys) use daily 4 digital loco's with the 1949 280A transformer (3x Marklin and 1x Piko) and no problemo at all.
I will one of these days measure the (reverse) voltage.

That sounds kind of cocky to me... You are definatly scating on thin ice!

You have many possible issues at hand. Too many for comfort!
Firstly; your 63 year old trafo will have its insulation parts severely degraded. A small tug of the mains wires, and you may be holding hands with your in-house electric network.
Secondly; the specifications of the trafo is for 110/220 Volt system, not the more modern 120 /230 V (+/- 10%!). Especially for the reverse-impulse that could mean 30V easily.
Thirdly; The rheostat (speed control knob) generates noise and sparks when operated, which cause micro-spikes with high voltage, also possibly damaging your decoders. (disclaimer; I am definatly not an expert on this, just referring from memory, from what I read here once. Maybe the original author can pitch in)
Fourthly; A modern white trafo cost peanuts compared to the cost of having to repair one of your locomotives. I.e. its simply not worth the risk.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Mark5  
#26 Posted : 25 October 2012 05:23:12(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,179
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
For 4 months now we (me and my 2 boys) use daily 4 digital loco's with the 1949 280A transformer (3x Marklin and 1x Piko) and no problemo at all.
I will one of these days measure the (reverse) voltage.

That sounds kind of cocky to me... You are definatly scating on thin ice!

You have many possible issues at hand. Too many for comfort!
Firstly; your 63 year old trafo will have its insulation parts severely degraded. A small tug of the mains wires, and you may be holding hands with your in-house electric network.
Secondly; the specifications of the trafo is for 110/220 Volt system, not the more modern 120 /230 V (+/- 10%!). Especially for the reverse-impulse that could mean 30V easily.
Thirdly; The rheostat (speed control knob) generates noise and sparks when operated, which cause micro-spikes with high voltage, also possibly damaging your decoders. (disclaimer; I am definatly not an expert on this, just referring from memory, from what I read here once. Maybe the original author can pitch in)
Fourthly; A modern white trafo cost peanuts compared to the cost of having to repair one of your locomotives. I.e. its simply not worth the risk.


Hello Werner,
Welcome to the forum.

I must agree with "hxmiesa" here.

I had to learn the hard way and burnt out the decoder on a very beautiful and expensive digital locomotive.
Still have not got it fixed with too much other stuff on my hands to do.

I only use the blue transformers for analog locomotives now.

All the best with your solutions.
- Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS circa 1955 to 1965. Fan of signals, catenary, stations and yards.
Father of four girls running an exhibition layout, the Mädchenbahn--
https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=30519&b=1
Large version of my present avatar-- https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=29910&b=1
Source of previous avatar in "zoomify" detail-- http://bit.ly/1QqMgL0
Offline kweekalot  
#27 Posted : 25 October 2012 11:36:16(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,218
Location: Holland
Confused Confused Confused

1940 /1950 is no synonymous for "unsafe" !!

My 1949 280A transfo is very modern compared to the many thousands of black Marklin transformers that are still used daily by 00 enthusiasts.
The 280A knob turns very smoothly, no sparks at all. It is not Lima, we talk about 1950s Marklin quality.

I'm sorry that in the past I ever bought some digital loco's, so if we blow up one or two, I don't mind.
In my house the meterbox from the electricity company is also from the 1950s.
Again I say, 1950 does not mean unsafe.
Offline river6109  
#28 Posted : 25 October 2012 11:43:09(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,543
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
Confused Confused Confused

1940 /1950 is no synonymous for "unsafe" !!

My 1949 280A transfo is very modern compared to the many thousands of black Marklin transformers that are still used daily by 00 enthusiasts.
The 280A knob turns very smoothly, no sparks at all. It is not Lima, we talk about 1950s Marklin quality.

I'm sorry that in the past I ever bought some digital loco's, so if we blow up one or two, I don't mind.
In my house the meterbox from the electricity company is also from the 1950s.
Again I say, 1950 does not mean unsafe.



there is nothing wrong with keeping your head in the sand.

You are one of these people who cross a busy raod and expect the traffic to halt for you without being killed.

Talk to an electrician and he will tell you what is safe from the 1950's.

putting your self at risk is one thing but having 2 boys, who don't understand electricity is in my opinion reckless and completely irresponsible
but with your opinion a second opinion doesn't mean anything to you.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kweekalot  
#29 Posted : 25 October 2012 12:21:35(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,218
Location: Holland
Hi John,

I have great respect for you.
I read all your posts on the forum from the last 4 months and know that you are a electrical / mechanical expert.
Please stay calm.
I'll unscrew the 280A tonight, make some photo's, so you can indicate what is unsafe about the 280A.

Marco
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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#30 Posted : 25 October 2012 12:25:18(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Welcome aboard Werner. My advice would have been to stick with the M track and analogue, but I see you've already arrived at those conclusions.

Cheers.
-Fred
Offline Marklin in Oz  
#31 Posted : 25 October 2012 12:29:11(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Well, with M and K-track there is actually one radius smaller than R1 - the "industrial radius" with 4 curved track pieces making up a half circle... Shown with the 2210 & 5120 track in the diagrams posted.


This is 100% correct, but I did not mention it, because a lot of modern Marklin items including the coaches need a minimum operating radius of 360mm, which is R1.

BR

Glenn



I actually use this radius as a space saver. Which is to say, cram one loop inside another. True, I can't run everything on it because of the operating radius you mention, but the railbus works just fine.
Cool
-Fred
Offline river6109  
#32 Posted : 25 October 2012 13:05:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,543
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
Hi John,

I have great respect for you.
I read all your posts on the forum from the last 4 months and know that you are a electrical / mechanical expert.
Please stay calm.
I'll unscrew the 280A tonight, make some photo's, so you can indicate what is unsafe about the 280A.

Marco


Marco, I may fiddle around with 16 -20 volts but please dont give me the title of being an expert when it comes to household electricity.

All I indicate and as others have, the deterioration of these transfofrmers can be quite severe.
My advice, as it has been in the past has never included power for household electricity and I would never pass any suggestion on how to fix or use such transformers.
a.) I don't know the condition of such item, whether it is your transformer or bought off ebay
b.) To put yourself in somebody's elses shoe may be a complete different aspect of how the other person perceives your or my explanation on electrical matters.
c.) Your transformer in your hand under your responsibility and operation may be save but to ignore advice from this forum and members and indicating there is nothing wrong with this equipment is somewhat pre-mature in my opinion.

I have never taken household electricity into my own hand and always called for an electrician.

I must admit these transformers lasted well over the years but to put every transformer in its same category as being fine and there is nothing wrong with it, is not a mature stand to take.

I have seen these transformers with the bare wire showing, and some of the inside insulation just disintegrated.

My point is what you do with your transformer is your business, we can give advice from past ecperiences but to suggest to someone else to buy one because yours seems to be in a good condition and we are talking about household electricity is a very risky business.

If your transformer lasts an other 20 yeas good luck but as a forum, I feel we should be considering and include, the person or persons in question have no idea about household electricity and this is where I start off with, get one with a plastic housing from an authorized dealer and hopefully as new as possible.



John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline RayF  
#33 Posted : 25 October 2012 14:03:48(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,419
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I have a 1950s blue transormer, the 278a model. About 10 years ago I opened it up because it was working intermittently, and I found that the power cord had seriously degraded. The rubber insulation had hardened from the heat generated by the transformer itself and had cracked, exposing the conductor wires. This was not actually the cause of the intermittent problen, which was actually a loose soldered connection on the low voltage side, but I was happy to have had a reason to open it as I then discovered the very unsafe condition of the high voltage wires.

UserPostedImage

To make the transformer safe I changed the power cord to a brand new modern flex, and I then carefully inspected the rest of the inner workings to make sure I had no more unpleasant surprises. Even so, I eventually replaced the transformer for a modern white one from a starter set as I had no way of knowing how well the insulation was holding out within the transformer coils themselves. I sometimes still use this transformer for testing purposes off the layout, but I don't trust leaving it powered on unsupervised any more.

The issue of the voltage on the reversing pulse is a separate one concerning the sensitivity of some digital decoders to higher voltages. As some-one else mentioned, older 6080, 6090 and 60901 decoders were very robust, and could deal with higher reversing pulses easily. In fact they were designed to be used with these transformers anyway!

The reversing voltage started becoming an issue with the advent of the newer programmable decoders initially made by ESU for Marklin. I guess someone messed up there on the specification...

As an aside, it has come to my attention from reading posts from the "collectors" among us that it is regarded as desireable by these collectors to run their 1940s and 1950s trains with transformers from that same period. As a Chartered Electrical Engineer myself, all I can say is that these folks are taking their lives in their hands by trusting to 60 and 70 year old insulation. My advice would be to relegate these old transformers to the display case, and use the modern ones for the running of the trains.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline marklinboy  
#34 Posted : 25 October 2012 14:06:49(UTC)
marklinboy

Australia   
Joined: 23/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4
I think this is healthy debate. I, for one, will definately dump my 1960-ish blue transformer and spend the bucks on a new, modern one. Again I thank the forum members for the advice they give; them speaking from a collective many years of experience!
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Offline kbvrod  
#35 Posted : 25 October 2012 17:03:23(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
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H0
Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 25 October 2012 21:06:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,499
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Interesting.
In German they write: "Nicht reparieren können wir Geräte im Blechgehäuse auf Grund geltender Vorschriften."
Translation: We cannot repair devices with metal cases due to current regulations.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kbvrod  
#37 Posted : 25 October 2012 21:15:22(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Interesting.
In German they write: "Nicht reparieren können wir Geräte im Blechgehäuse auf Grund geltender Vorschriften."
Translation: We cannot repair devices with metal cases due to current regulations.


Hi Tom,all,
EU regsConfused
I loved the Titan 208's for my old layout,which had two outputs(16V and 14V)

Dr D

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