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Offline Semaphore  
#1 Posted : 15 March 2012 23:25:11(UTC)
Semaphore


Joined: 13/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: Toms River, New Jersey, USA
If you are running an automatic shadow yard using circuit track, s88 and CS2, the pick-up shoe from the locoomotive will trigger the "finger" on the circuit track, thereby sending a signal to CS2 via the s88 decoder. How can you prevent triggering "false alarms" when you have cars behind the loco with their own shoes (IE. lighted passenger cars).

I think a solution would be to program the CS2 in such a way it deactivates the circuit track after the loco has passed. Another circuit track, a little further down the track, will trigger a re-activation for the next train. But I would like every body's input.

On another note: How does a contact track work exactly. I know that one of outer tracks is electrically insulated and the wheels reconnect the two rails thereby creating a signal for the CS2. If you install these in a shadow yard, would the insulated section be the entire storage track length or just a smaller section.

Just trying to get my head around the technology.

Thanks all!
Best regards,
Steven
JE MAINTIENDRAI
Offline kbvrod  
#2 Posted : 16 March 2012 00:01:09(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Steven,all,
Do a search,I -think- another Steve had this problem Laugh

Dr D
Offline Pavle  
#3 Posted : 16 March 2012 01:21:19(UTC)
Pavle


Joined: 21/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 206
Location: Netherlands
Hi Steven,

Look here:

https://www.marklin-user...c-in-shadow-station.aspx

for what I did to this problem, following the suggestions of Jacques.
About contact tracks: I use only one track piece 24188 - works very much the same as a circuit track.
I believe Märklin recommends two track pieces for a contact track, but I don't think that's necessary.

By the way: getting your head around the technology is great fun - especially if you get the reward of success!
Peter
Offline Semaphore  
#4 Posted : 17 March 2012 00:00:57(UTC)
Semaphore


Joined: 13/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: Toms River, New Jersey, USA
Originally Posted by: Pavle Go to Quoted Post
Hi Steven,

Look here:

https://www.marklin-user...c-in-shadow-station.aspx

for what I did to this problem, following the suggestions of Jacques.
About contact tracks: I use only one track piece 24188 - works very much the same as a circuit track.
I believe Märklin recommends two track pieces for a contact track, but I don't think that's necessary.

By the way: getting your head around the technology is great fun - especially if you get the reward of success!


Peter,

Thanks for your reply, but now I have a question for you:

When the first wheel hits the contact track it sends the signal to the s88, but so do all the following wheels. How does the CS2 not get confused with all the signals?
Best regards,
Steven
JE MAINTIENDRAI
Offline Pavle  
#5 Posted : 17 March 2012 01:45:36(UTC)
Pavle


Joined: 21/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 206
Location: Netherlands
Steven,

That's not exactly how it works. The signal to the S88 is either ON or OFF. When the first wheel hits the contact track it is turned ON, and it stays ON as long as there are wheels on the contact track. Only when the last set of wheels leaves the contact track, it is turned OFF.

With CS2 you can program a route that is activated either when the signal is turned ON, or when the signal is turned OFF. That is, a route can be triggered when the train arrives at the contact track, or (another) route can be triggered after the full train has passed the contact track. Example: if you have a contact track in front of a station, you can have a route that turns on the lights at the station whenever a train arrives. And you can have another route that turns these lights off after the train has left.

But this simple logic can go wrong, dirty wheels or dirty tracks may cause an interruption: no more contact between the two rails, therefore the S88-signal is turned OFF. The next car in your train, with clean wheels, may turn it ON again. This causes unwanted triggering of your routes, ans that's why this "interlocking safety logic" comes into play.

Best way to go for you, if I may suggest, is to start with a very basic setup as the example with the station lights. Well, that's how I did it... And then you work up to more sophisticated things: a small shadow station, a small shadow station with interlocking safety, a large shadow station, multiple large shadow stations...

Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Pavle
Offline Laxman  
#6 Posted : 17 March 2012 06:22:16(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Peter

Thanks so much for your answer. I have done a couple of small layouts and used circuit tracks. I, too, was confused as to how a contact track with an s-88 in digital would work (thinking that each wheel set would trigger a response) as opposed to one 'click or on' with a circuit track each time the pick up shoe depressed it.

So in theory a longer contact section would 'guarantee ' the s-88 would stay ON as long as a train was on/crossing it as there would be multiple wheel sets keeping it ON and less of a chance of it going OFF then ON with a dirty or poor connecting wheel set?

Please elaborate on the 'interlocking safety logic' comment.

Laxman

Edited by user 02 February 2013 14:00:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Pavle  
#7 Posted : 18 March 2012 00:57:03(UTC)
Pavle


Joined: 21/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 206
Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post


So in theory a longer contact section would 'guarantee ' the s-88 would stay ON as long as a train was on/crossing it as there would be multiple wheel sets keeping it ON and less of a chance of it going OFF then ON with a dirty or poor connecting wheel set?



Correct.
Disadvantage of longer contact sections is, well, that they are longer. In a shadow station you want to be max efficient for space - longer contact tracks may force you to run shorter trains.


Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post


Please elaborate on the 'interlocking safety logic' comment.

Dole


In post #3 you see a reference to another thread in which I learnt about that. The basic idea is that the cable between contact track and S88-module is interrupted by a K84, which can be switched ON or OFF. This will ENABLE or DISABLE the contact track, preventing any risk of unwanted contacts / unwanted triggering of routes.
Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Pavle
Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 18 March 2012 02:12:27(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post

So in theory a longer contact section would 'guarantee ' the s-88 would stay ON as long as a train was on/crossing it as there would be multiple wheel sets keeping it ON and less of a chance of it going OFF then ON with a dirty or poor connecting wheel set?


I would just highlight that while the contacts may be occupied and the "input" to the s88 "ON", that the s88/control will only trigger an action on the transition from the Off to On state (Or ON to Off if the "invert" checkbox ticked).

This is desirable behaviour (certainly compared to the "no s88, analogue" option) when a train entering its yard, triggers another to go (signal = green) but we want that signal to go Red as soon as the train is out of the exit throat -without - being redriven Green because the first train is still sitting on the sensor track.

The reference to disabling the "input" to a sensor is all fine and good functionally but it means you can no longer have an indiction of occupancy without other wiring, and which is usually desirable if you have a hidden ladderyard and also want to run in manual mode occasionally
Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline Laxman  
#9 Posted : 18 March 2012 16:22:57(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post



This is desirable behaviour (certainly compared to the "no s88, analogue" option) when a train entering its yard, triggers another to go (signal = green) but we want that signal to go Red as soon as the train is out of the exit throat -without - being redriven Green because the first train is still sitting on the sensor track.

The reference to disabling the "input" to a sensor is all fine and good functionally but it means you can no longer have an indiction of occupancy without other wiring, and which is usually desirable if you have a hidden ladderyard and also want to run in manual mode occasionally


Peter

Thanks. But what does one do to prevent the exiting train from re-triggering the contact track when it begins moving again or re-triggering the signal back to green once the train leaves and signal goes red

Laxman

Edited by user 02 February 2013 14:00:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Laxman  
#10 Posted : 18 March 2012 16:32:16(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
]Peter

I think I found the answer to my own question on this post. I have added it below for others

https://www.marklin-user...-station.aspx#post314773

Edited by user 02 February 2013 14:00:53(UTC)  | Reason: Adding URL

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