Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  can't get your your pictures |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,463 Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  I'm afraid pictures one and two do not show. I've never seen such an extreme case. There must have been a short cut (maybe a partial short cut), but the controller didn't switch off. I've had two decoders that died - they burnt holes into their shrink covers, but caused no damage of the locomotive. Is it the loco from the 29010 set? Or the older 39103? Edit: now with 3 pictures showing. Edited by user 02 October 2011 12:08:33(UTC)
| Reason: Not specified |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,243 Location: Montreal, QC
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I could not access the first two photos either.
Sometimes, the decoder shorts internally and this causes the decoder to fry, usually quickly. Other times, wiring short circuits can cause excess voltage to be carried by wires to circuits and resistors that were not designed for that much power, which can cause heat and even fire.
In order to determine where the problem occurred, a photo of the circuit board and decoder with the tender cover removed would be helpful.
If the lok was delivered from the factory with the decoder and is still within it's 12 or 24 month warranty period, you should contact your dealer, distributor or Maerklin or other manufacturer as the case may be. If the lok happens to be under warranty, you may not want to tamper with it before you send it in for repairs or replacement. If the lok is outside it's warranty period, or if the decoder was installed by you, you may have to pay for repairs on your own. If the decoder was new, you may have a claim based on the decoder's own warranty. Check with the decoder manufacturer for more precise information.
Oh, it is supposed to be "cook until tender" and not "cook your tender". Hope a little levity makes you smile for a minute. Good luck with the repairs.
MC
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Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  |
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around |
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Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
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Greg, Sorry about loco. Photos cannot be seen as there is a Gap in the title eg photo 1.jpg.
Take out the gap and reload. or use the feature to attach photos to your post. Nev |
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around |
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Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,934 Location: Auckland,
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Eek!  I hope its still under warranty, or not the old 39103 with the sine motor. That could get expensive. My sympathies, and I hope you can get it resolved. Cheers... Mike. BTW Fried chips for dinner? (sorry couldn't resist)
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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I'm sorry Nev, I just can't seem to get the photos to display. I tried the adjustment as you suggested, but no difference. |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,934 Location: Auckland,
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What were you doing at the time it happened?
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: mvd71  What were you doing at the time it happened? Sorry for the late response - I've been watching the football final on TV. The Sydney team beat the NZ team. Just playing trains with my grandson. The loco is the 29010. I bought it 2nd hand so there's no claim - I can live with that - I've always had this kind of luck. I'm the next best thing to Murphy's law. |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 4,000 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: mvd71  What were you doing at the time it happened? Sorry for the late response - I've been watching the football final on TV. The Sydney team beat the NZ team. Just playing trains with my grandson. The loco is the 29010. I bought it 2nd hand so there's no claim - I can live with that - I've always had this kind of luck. I'm the next best thing to Murphy's law. The Decoder fried in advance - it anticipated your lack of respect for the mighty Kiwi's. Back to the matter in hand, I figured the link to your photos... https://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Models/youngagain/Frieddecoder1.jpghttps://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Models/youngagain/Frieddecoder2.jpgWoah - that's some damage for sure. Was the loco running at the time? It does seem like a pretty severe short-circuit and very rapid over-heating - makes you wonder if it was external (ie too much power on the track from a faulty controller), or internal such as a fault in the motor causing it to suddenly draw a lot of current. Were any other loco's on the track at the time, were they running and did they continue running while this was going on? Lots of questions to help try to isolate the cause. Cheers Cookee Kiwi in Melbourne |
Cookee Wellington  |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: cookee_nz  Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: mvd71  What were you doing at the time it happened? Sorry for the late response - I've been watching the football final on TV. The Sydney team beat the NZ team. Just playing trains with my grandson. The loco is the 29010. I bought it 2nd hand so there's no claim - I can live with that - I've always had this kind of luck. I'm the next best thing to Murphy's law. The Decoder fried in advance - it anticipated your lack of respect for the mighty Kiwi's. Back to the mater in hand - can you take pictures of the inside, or if you did, create an album in your profile ("My Albums") and place them there. Cheers Cookee Kiwi in Melbourne I've uploaded the 3 photos into "My Album" titled "Fried Decoder". Is this all I have to do ? I think my brain has been fried as well as the decoder |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 4,000 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: cookee_nz  Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: mvd71  What were you doing at the time it happened? Sorry for the late response - I've been watching the football final on TV. The Sydney team beat the NZ team. Just playing trains with my grandson. The loco is the 29010. I bought it 2nd hand so there's no claim - I can live with that - I've always had this kind of luck. I'm the next best thing to Murphy's law. The Decoder fried in advance - it anticipated your lack of respect for the mighty Kiwi's. Back to the mater in hand - can you take pictures of the inside, or if you did, create an album in your profile ("My Albums") and place them there. Cheers Cookee Kiwi in Melbourne I've uploaded the 3 photos into "My Album" titled "Fried Decoder". Is this all I have to do ? I think my brain has been fried as well as the decoder Ah - we crossed posts - see above I found the images |
Cookee Wellington  |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: cookee_nz  Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: mvd71  What were you doing at the time it happened? Sorry for the late response - I've been watching the football final on TV. The Sydney team beat the NZ team. Just playing trains with my grandson. The loco is the 29010. I bought it 2nd hand so there's no claim - I can live with that - I've always had this kind of luck. I'm the next best thing to Murphy's law. The Decoder fried in advance - it anticipated your lack of respect for the mighty Kiwi's. Back to the matter in hand, I figured the link to your photos... https://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Models/youngagain/Frieddecoder1.jpghttps://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Models/youngagain/Frieddecoder2.jpgWoah - that's some damage for sure. Was the loco running at the time? Yes, however, it went into a tunnel and I didn't notice that it had stopped there and so the power was running to it for about 10 minutes, as we were looking at the other locos running around the layout - that's the idea of digital - isn't it - to be able to running several locos at once. It does seem like a pretty severe short-circuit and very rapid over-heating - makes you wonder if it was external (ie too much power on the track from a faulty controller), or internal such as a fault in the motor causing it to suddenly draw a lot of current. Were any other loco's on the track at the time, were they running and did they continue running while this was going on? Yes, they continued to operate and this distracted my attention from this loco no running. I noticed a very strange smell and didn't know what it was - only to realise that it was the plastic melting. It has a lot of phenol in the plastic. I have 3 tables that are electrically isolated and have a CS2 connected to 1 table and 2 boosters to each of the other tables. Lots of questions to help try to isolate the cause. Cheers Cookee Kiwi in Melbourne |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC) Posts: 174 Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
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Hi Greg,
These things usually happen because of a bad connection (soldered joint or dirty/corroded or loose pin connection). It happens because of the added resistance at that point. And a current flowing through a resistance generates heat, the amount of generated heat being equal to V x I. In a bad motor connections things usually rapidly turn sour certainly with load compensated decoders. Because of the resistance the motor runs slower and the decoder compensates with a higher current (PWM), the bad spot heats up even more and in short time the melt down is a fact.
Regards, Robert
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: arconell  Hi Greg,
These things usually happen because of a bad connection (soldered joint or dirty/corroded or loose pin connection). It happens because of the added resistance at that point. And a current flowing through a resistance generates heat, the amount of generated heat being equal to V x I. In a bad motor connections things usually rapidly turn sour certainly with load compensated decoders. Because of the resistance the motor runs slower and the decoder compensates with a higher current (PWM), the bad spot heats up even more and in short time the melt down is a fact.
Regards, Robert Thanks Robert for the explanation. I just have to be more careful when I'm operating the trains. For everyone - I'm going away for a few days and I won't be near a computer. so please forgive if I don't reply during this time. Regards Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,
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....I have never seen such severe damages... It is obvious that a stop for 10 minutes under a tunnel is not the best to disperse the heat... Looking at the image, I see 2 alternatives : something on the 21 poles connector or a component from the PCB overheated ....(I mean : I'm not not sure if the decoder itself was the original cause...)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,463 Location: DE-NW
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My 29010 went back to Märklin for a warranty repair - there was a contact problem on the PCB inside the loco (one of the printed circuits was broken). I wonder if a similar defect could be the problem here - a not completely broken printed circuit will have a higher resistance. Or maybe it was completely broken and making contact with a different circuit. Re: inserting pictures: Do not insert blanks after ".jpg". Make sure all characters (including spaces) in the filename are exactly as the file you uploaded. These are the filenames that work (pictures can be seen in post #3): |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Greg,
I'll be looking seriously at your amp's, you may have too many boosters you don't need and overcharging your layout.
It is quite easy to overlook a train and it happen to me many times and its always in a tunnel but never with a burnout like this.
Even when operating your layout with constant observation you can forget about a loco's existence. You also must have been very unlucky for the loco not to cause a short and it looks like the loco kept running without going anywhere, hence the motor getting hot.
John
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Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC) Posts: 976 Location: Gorizia, Italy
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Hi Tom,
I have only one hypothesis:
I see the more burns are in correspondence to the 21 pole connector and the electronic components are not deformed like it is, so maybe the problem is underside the upper PCB or in the connections between the upper and lower PCBs. I think that in case of a motor overload or short circuit, the integrated circuits powering the motor should be burnt and blown (and they are not, but the 21 connector yes). I should have a look at the lower PCB anyway.
Cheers
Renato
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,243 Location: Montreal, QC
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  Looking at this photo, can anybody tell me what the purpose of the yellow cable leaving the PC board and passing underneath about halfway back to the right side of the decoder is? Also wondering what that blackened plastic immediately to the right of that wire is? Is that burnt insulation or a charred wire? I am also wondering about the function of that detached yellow wire lead coming up at the front of the tender. Is that the main wire coming from the third rail slider (16-22 VAC)? If the main AC contact somehow came into contact with any part of the decoder other than the appropriate input, this would definitely cause the unit to short out. Unfortunately the Exploded view at maerklin.de is not quite as "exploded" as yours, nor does it show the wiring. A new shell is around 35 EUR. A new decoder would have to be ordered from ESU, as this was AFAICT one of the ESU mfx decoders that were made for Maerklin. You will also have to replace the PC board. If you check the parts list, you will see Part #52 is listed as Fire Extinguisher. I believe that this was also a defective part, as it did not activate when required. Sorry for the morbid sense of humour, but it was too hard to resist when I saw that part on the list. Good luck with the repairs. Regards Mike C
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Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,275
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Interesting photos, must have been quite a fire in there!
During debug of my own homemade decoder I experienced some fires of diodes and MOSFET motordrivers that burned through (bad design of my part). They gave a short intense flame, but were not able to burn through plastic. My central station (ecos1) did always go into short circuit protection when that happened.
I guess your 21 pin connector caught fire and kept burning for a while. I agree with Renato, it is not caused by the motor, you can see the MOSFET motor driving ICs (the 8pin ICs) next to the 21 pin connector.
My suspect would be the tantalum capacitor on the bottom of the PCB. It is usually a yellow or black brick-shaped component. They are known to be very sensitive to over-voltage and temperature, and occasionally go up in smoke with lots of fire when mishandled. Possible causes in this case: - it could be that the booster input transformer gives too high a voltage. (do not use blue transformers!) - are your seperate booster sections split up as required? If another train was just crossing 2 sections and connecting them with its slider it is very well possible a short voltage spike was present on the track with your steamer stressing the cap. - bad batch of capacitors used for the decoder, or they were stressed during decoder assembly (too high temperature)
Funny experience with the tantalum capacitor I had: at my work (I'm an electronics engineer) I have known engineers running away from our lab in a complete panic looking for a fire extinguisher because one of the capacitors caught fire. The thought the building was going up in flames :). The lab was full of smoke and the PCB (eurosize) was entirely black. And that was a similar cap as is (was) in your loco.
Bert
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Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,275
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Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165
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I think you should send these pics to Märklin Service department - service@maerklin.de - and ask why this could happen...  |
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb] |
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Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,
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Originally Posted by: DasBert33  Interesting photos, must have been quite a fire in there!
...(...)...My suspect would be the tantalum capacitor on the bottom of the PCB....(...)... Bert Thank you Bert Here on a Marklin LOK ,do you know what is this tantalum capacitor for ? ...could you tell us, please.. 
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Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC) Posts: 174 Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
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Originally Posted by: DasBert33  Interesting photos, must have been quite a fire in there!
During debug of my own homemade decoder I experienced some fires of diodes and MOSFET motordrivers that burned through (bad design of my part). They gave a short intense flame, but were not able to burn through plastic. My central station (ecos1) did always go into short circuit protection when that happened.
I guess your 21 pin connector caught fire and kept burning for a while. I agree with Renato, it is not caused by the motor, you can see the MOSFET motor driving ICs (the 8pin ICs) next to the 21 pin connector.
My suspect would be the tantalum capacitor on the bottom of the PCB. It is usually a yellow or black brick-shaped component. They are known to be very sensitive to over-voltage and temperature, and occasionally go up in smoke with lots of fire when mishandled. Possible causes in this case: - it could be that the booster input transformer gives too high a voltage. (do not use blue transformers!) - are your seperate booster sections split up as required? If another train was just crossing 2 sections and connecting them with its slider it is very well possible a short voltage spike was present on the track with your steamer stressing the cap. - bad batch of capacitors used for the decoder, or they were stressed during decoder assembly (too high temperature)
Funny experience with the tantalum capacitor I had: at my work (I'm an electronics engineer) I have known engineers running away from our lab in a complete panic looking for a fire extinguisher because one of the capacitors caught fire. The thought the building was going up in flames :). The lab was full of smoke and the PCB (eurosize) was entirely black. And that was a similar cap as is (was) in your loco.
Bert Hi all, Here are some pictures of what bad contacts can do:    In the 3rd picture the blue (neutral) wire together with its connector completely came off the PCB. My company works with HVAC controls and we see this sort of damage from time to time, these pics happened to still be on my home laptop, we have other pics showing more severe damage. The extend of the damage depends on how long it took for this process to get to the point where the control stopped working. Also small currents can cause such damage, it all depends on how much heat is accumulated during the process. Remember that a light bulb filament in that loco reaches some 2500 deg. C and more with only a handful of milliamps at 16Volts. Obviously heat accumulated much more easily in the confined space of that tender than in the devices shown on the pics above. As for tantalum caps and other electrolytic capacitors, yes they can explode and give off flames, but the heat damage is usually a lot less extensive because of the very short time the flames are present. it takes a couple of minutes for that connector to get heated up to the point where it deforms the way it did. That is not caused by burning plastic but by the plastic melting away. These 21 pole connectors are regular PCB connectors, made of self-extinguishing material, or so they should be. Regards, Robert
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Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,934 Location: Auckland,
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Can I suggest that you email Dion at Toottoot in New Zealand. Inspite of the loss of the rugby he will be the best person to help you repair the loco in this region.
Cheers....
Mike.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,463 Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: arconell  In the 3rd picture ... I don't see any pictures. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 12/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 98 Location: Auckland,
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Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: cookee_nz  Originally Posted by: youngagain  Originally Posted by: mvd71  What were you doing at the time it happened? Sorry for the late response - I've been watching the football final on TV. The Sydney team beat the NZ team. Just playing trains with my grandson. The loco is the 29010. I bought it 2nd hand so there's no claim - I can live with that - I've always had this kind of luck. I'm the next best thing to Murphy's law. The Decoder fried in advance - it anticipated your lack of respect for the mighty Kiwi's. Back to the matter in hand, I figured the link to your photos... https://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Models/youngagain/Frieddecoder1.jpghttps://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Models/youngagain/Frieddecoder2.jpgWoah - that's some damage for sure. Was the loco running at the time? Yes, however, it went into a tunnel and I didn't notice that it had stopped there and so the power was running to it for about 10 minutes, as we were looking at the other locos running around the layout - that's the idea of digital - isn't it - to be able to running several locos at once. It does seem like a pretty severe short-circuit and very rapid over-heating - makes you wonder if it was external (ie too much power on the track from a faulty controller), or internal such as a fault in the motor causing it to suddenly draw a lot of current. Were any other loco's on the track at the time, were they running and did they continue running while this was going on? Yes, they continued to operate and this distracted my attention from this loco no running. I noticed a very strange smell and didn't know what it was - only to realise that it was the plastic melting. It has a lot of phenol in the plastic. I have 3 tables that are electrically isolated and have a CS2 connected to 1 table and 2 boosters to each of the other tables. Lots of questions to help try to isolate the cause. Cheers Cookee Kiwi in Melbourne Never mind about the Loco. My question is: why didn't the controller cut off? I note that you're using a CS2. What's the power source for the CS2? One of the new 100VA switched mode power supplies 60101?? Or maybe the loco stopped while it was bridging 2 sections (CS2 and booster) both at once. I think you need to figure out what went wrong there, before you run too many more trains on your layout. As regards the loco, after you've cleaned it up I'd be hard wiring a replacement decoder straight back in - you can manage without that 21 pin "mother board". cheers Dennis
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Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,047 Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
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Dennis, I have sent Greg an email letting him know I have a decoder out of Marklin 37881 that would do the trick to get him up & running again. The Sound option is infinitely a more expensive option but easy to do if he wants it so. The tender is a Göppingen only order.I could find nothing on E-Bay DE with regards to a second hand tender for that model. Anyone got any other ideas to help Greg out of this shocking demise? |
D.A.Banks |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Hi everyone,
I'm back from my short holiday.
Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions. Juhan, I did send the photos to Marklin service and the reply didn't mention anything about why it happened. They suggest I wait until the end of the year when a new decoder will be available and slightly cheaper.
I'm going to wait until then and see how much it will cost for repairing it - if it's too much then I'll just have to write it off.
At the moment I'm not running any trains from one table to another, i.e. the tables are totally independent, so there wasn't a chance of a slider being in contact with 2 paper sources at once.
John, I think you might be right about having too much power, although, each table is reasonably large (approx. 50 metres of track each).
Regarding power supplies - I'm using the Australian units supplied by "Train Trader" - Sydney members would be familiar with them, and I think they should be ok.
I'm a little disappointed that the Marklin service department didn't show so more interest and concern, but I guess when you live half way around the world from them . . . .
Again, thanks everyone for your concern and advice.
Regards Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Hi everyone,
After all this time I accidentally found the reason for the decoder "frying". It was all my fault. I have 2 tables which are isolated electrically with one table powered by the CS2 and the other by a booster. Doing some track/layout maintenance, I forgot to put the isolation back in one section and so the table with the booster was powered to 40 volts. I tested the track with a multimeter and that was the reading. All I can say is that I was lucky to lose only one loco. Next time I'll be more careful and hopefully my experience will save someone else from this disaster.
I'm starting to lose count of all my "dummy" actions.
Regards Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,
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congratulations Greg ! ...and thank you for debriefing !(it's too rare)
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Joined: 09/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: christchurch, canterbury
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Hi Greg well not a great sight, but its looks fixable So I turned up the parts sheets and found as follows. now the tender cover is part 49 no 126065 and available from Germany and the decoder is part 54 126070 and the base part 55 126069 which begs the question would it simplier to replace the who decoder with an ESU sound decoder so if you want some help we could get the parts from Germany for you as I don't think the tender cover would be in stock here, But Dion could have a replacement decoder The other main cause of decoder fry is Digital locos on Analogue controllers and the Reverse button held down to long giving 23Volts which decoders don't like Advise Bryan Toottoot chch NZ
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were we pickit, packit and postit |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,256 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Thanks Bryan for your offer. I thought I might replace the old decoder with either the new ESU Loksound V4 or the new decoder Marklin is shortly to release. I'll give it a go as to doing it myself and if I stuff it up then I might learn something. Interesting though, is that the spare parts add up to nearly the cost of a new loco, and it makes you wonder whether it's worth while repairing the loco. The only reason I'll repair it, is so that I learn how to do it and maybe later be able to upgrade older locos with new sound decoders.
Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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