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dragos		#1 Posted : 23 July 2010 14:38:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		Hello all, I've seen pictures of german freight train, where the loco is followed by an zugbegleitwagen, something like the US cabooses. I'm modelling German epoche II, and my question is: can anyone suggest any suitable Märklin wagons (also product number) to use as a zugbegleitwagen? And, I've only seen b/w photos, so can anyone tell if they where brown like the freight wagons, or green like the passenger wagons? If there is no suitable M-wagon, which other wagons will be suitable? thanks and regard Björn H
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marklinsa		#2 Posted : 23 July 2010 14:50:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 26/04/2002(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Weltevreden Park, South Africa		Hi Bjorn Good place to start is here : http://www.epoche2.de/ plus : http://www.worldrailfans.info/forum/index.php plus : http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/index.php Good info and good advice - both the latter have good search functions
		Herman Steyn DRG Epoche 2, SBB & Narrow Gauge www.herman.rula.co.za http://www.samodelrailway.hot.co.za/
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RayF		#3 Posted : 23 July 2010 14:56:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,873 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		dragos wrote: Hello all, I've seen pictures of german freight train, where the loco is followed by an zugbegleitwagen, something like the US cabooses. I'm modelling German epoche II, and my question is: can anyone suggest any suitable Märklin wagons (also product number) to use as a zugbegleitwagen? And, I've only seen b/w photos, so can anyone tell if they where brown like the freight wagons, or green like the passenger wagons? If there is no suitable M-wagon, which other wagons will be suitable? thanks and regard Björn H Hi Björn, The Marklin 4699 or the earlier 4600 is the one I use, though mine are Era III. The later versions of the 4699 I think are DRG, though.
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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dragos		#4 Posted : 23 July 2010 16:10:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		Herman and Ray: thanks, and now when I know what to look for, I have located a couple of 4699 on eBay. So now it's just a matter of wich one to bid on! regards Björn H
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dragos		#5 Posted : 09 August 2010 20:57:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		So I got my wagon from eBay in Germany. I bought it Friday just before noon, and picked it up at my local post office today. That's quick. Excelent seller. Thanks for the help to find it. brgds Björn H
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steventrain		#6 Posted : 09 August 2010 23:51:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,720 Location: United Kingdom		Very nice.
		Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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petestra		#7 Posted : 10 August 2010 00:47:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,862 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		I use the old 4600 too. It's one of my oldest cars from the 60s. Anyway , I have seen and used it as the last car and also the first wagon right behind the Lok as it was used in reality. I also use the older style 4679 from the Royal Wuerttemberg railway.Cheers, Peter
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Nilkram		#8 Posted : 10 August 2010 00:52:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 43 Location: Netherlands		Björn Take a look at Märklin wagon 4212. You find it on their website. Although it is an era I car they also used it in era II. Jan
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petestra		#9 Posted : 10 August 2010 00:58:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,862 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		Hi Bjorn, I just thought of a favorite film of mine. The WW2 film "The Train" starring Burt Lancaster from 1964. Watch this u-tube and you will see what happens to this Begleitwagen. Cheers, Peter The Begleitwagen is actually a Donnerbuechsen baggage car. Not so lucky for the guy at the back door. War is hell!
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dragos		#10 Posted : 10 August 2010 01:10:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		petestra wrote: Hi Bjorn, I just thought of a favorite film of mine. The WW2 film "The Train" starring Burt Lancaster from 1964. Watch this u-tube and you will see what happens to this Begleitwagen. Cheers, Peter The Begleitwagen is actually a Donnerbuechsen baggage car. Not so lucky for the guy at the back door. War is hell! The guy in the donnerbüchsen had for sure a bad day!
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dragos		#11 Posted : 10 August 2010 01:13:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		Nilkram wrote: Björn Take a look at Märklin wagon 4212. You find it on their website. Although it is an era I car they also used it in era II. Jan Jan: thanks. I will for sure take a look after 4212 on the (in)famous eBay!
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dragos		#12 Posted : 10 August 2010 01:17:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		steventrain wrote: Very nice. It's openable doors. I've seen many photos where the crew are standing in the door during the voyage. It could be a nice idea to position the "zugbegleiter" himself in the door!
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H0		#13 Posted : 10 August 2010 12:53:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,488 Location: DE-NW		Nilkram wrote: Take a look at Märklin wagon 4212. [...] Although it is an era I car they also used it in era II. Doesn't look like a Güterzugbegleitwagen. It's a baggage car for passenger trains (with pet compartment for dogs).
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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RayF		#14 Posted : 10 August 2010 15:05:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,873 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		I only know of two other types made by Marklin, neither of them in DRG colours though. 46980 and similar: 4038 and similar: The 4038 is usually seen in Marklin catalogues with the 4039 4 wheel coach, but they include it in sets as a goods wagon.
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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dragos		#15 Posted : 10 August 2010 18:26:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 40 Location: Sweden		4212 Gepäckwagen mitt Dienstraum und Hundeabteil EpocheI I. 46980 Güterzugbegleitwagen DB Epoche III 4038 Gepäckwagen Epoche I-IV So I think there is no other Güterzugbegleitwagen available for Epoche II. On the small hatch one can read: "Harzfackel", and on the opposite side: ”Lanternen und Olkannen”.
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Nilkram		#16 Posted : 11 August 2010 01:06:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 43 Location: Netherlands		All the vans with an extension on their roofs offered the train guard the possibility to check the train and thus these vans were called guard vans. Of course these vans offered more possiblities i.e. transporting mail, parcels, dogs, chickens and whatever comes to mind. Compare it with the U.S. cabooses, which all were provided with an extension. Therefore I took the freedom to call the 4212 a 'Begleitungswagen'. Jan
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H0		#17 Posted : 11 August 2010 02:25:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,488 Location: DE-NW		Nilkram wrote: Therefore I took the freedom to call the 4212 a 'Begleitungswagen'. There are baggage cars for passenger trains (Gepäckwagen) and there are Güterzugbegleitwagen (cars for the train chief of freight trains). And there are Begleitwagen for military trains. Passenger trains need no Begleitwagen. The train chief can always lock a first class compartment for his use (if there's no suitable baggage car or another Dienstabteil). And he should walk through the train selling and controlling tickets anyway ... Train chief, not guard. First car in a freight train, not last; later a cab in the tender was used to get rid of the Güterzugbegleitwagen (only with BR 50 freight locomotives). Not needed with Diesel and electric locos that had two cabs anyway. Caboose is a different matter. AFAIK there were no Guard's Vans in Germany (except for military trains). This thread is about Güterzugbegleitwagen and I took the liberty to point out that 4212 is not one of those. But every MRR fan can take the liberty to use it as such.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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klinge-germany		#18 Posted : 11 August 2010 13:53:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC) Posts: 260 Location: Hamburg,		as tom said, these german 'cabooses' were normally the first waggon in a freight trains right after the loco. this is contrary to nearly all consist examples which were printed in maerklin catalogues and on boxes (f.e. starterpack 29530). after reading some books about history of deutsche bundesbahn especially during era 3, i got to know that these waggons were abandoned until the mid of the 60's, so they do not fit on a era 4 layout. the goods waggons for trains for persons have been on front or end of the train, sometimes mixed of waggons for mail and luggage. the mail waggons ended service in germany i think in 1997.
		alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...) collecting M items - but not a collector... editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
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Nilkram		#19 Posted : 12 August 2010 00:25:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 43 Location: Netherlands		Can anyone tell me what was the purpose of those extensions on the roof, especially the Era I vans? Anyway, in those times is was not allways possible to hop from van to van, see f.i. the 4207/4208/4209 vans. Jan
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RayF		#20 Posted : 12 August 2010 01:54:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,873 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		Nilkram wrote: Can anyone tell me what was the purpose of those extensions on the roof, especially the Era I vans? Anyway, in those times is was not allways possible to hop from van to van, see f.i. the 4207/4208/4209 vans. Jan Jan, the 4207/8/9 coaches were compartment coaches where the passenger accomodation was only accessible from the outside as there were no internal corridors. The train guard would actually shuffle along the outside of the train with his feet on the continuous footboards and holding on to the handrails. In this way he would visit each compartment and check the passengers' tickets. When he wasn't doing this he would rest in the small extension on the roof, where he could also see along the whole length of the train. From this position he could also apply the handbrake for that coach. The similar construction on goods vans served a similar purpose.
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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applor		#21 Posted : 12 August 2010 02:22:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,778 Location: Brisbane, Queensland		Great thread, very informative! I need to get my hands on a 46980:D Been chasing a recent baggage van for a while.
		modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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H0		#22 Posted : 12 August 2010 03:37:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,488 Location: DE-NW		RayPayas wrote: When he wasn't doing this he would rest in the small extension on the roof, where he could also see along the whole length of the train. From this position he could also apply the handbrake for that coach. That's the brakeman's cab (in era I there was no air brake yet so there were brakemen in these cabs). Not sure if the conductors used these cabs for a chat or a break - I presume they could have gone to their Dienstabteil (reserved compartment) in the baggage car or one of the other coaches.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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RayF		#23 Posted : 12 August 2010 10:23:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,873 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		H0 wrote: RayPayas wrote: When he wasn't doing this he would rest in the small extension on the roof, where he could also see along the whole length of the train. From this position he could also apply the handbrake for that coach. That's the brakeman's cab (in era I there was no air brake yet so there were brakemen in these cabs). Not sure if the conductors used these cabs for a chat or a break - I presume they could have gone to their Dienstabteil (reserved compartment) in the baggage car or one of the other coaches. Yes you're right, I'm confusing the brakeman's cabin with the conductor's cupola.
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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kimballthurlow		#24 Posted : 02 September 2010 10:46:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,769 Location: Brisbane, Australia		I read somewhere that Märklin 46980 was originally an Austrian design, and when the German government took over Austria in 1938, the DRG built more of them for their own use in the extended system. I think there may have been continued building programs after 1945. Some had cupolas, and some did not. Many of these wagons were sheathed in plywood (probably had a steel frame), and it also made them quite light. I have a few of them, because they came with Märklin starter sets. regards Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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H0		#25 Posted : 02 September 2010 11:03:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,488 Location: DE-NW		kimballthurlow wrote: Some had cupolas, and some did not. Here's a page (German only) that says some had cupolas, but they were removed later: http://www.donnerbuechse.eu/Pwgs41.htm I have both variations from startersets - but they are from era III.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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YannisB		#26 Posted : 07 September 2010 21:55:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/05/2010(UTC) Posts: 190 Location: USA		dragos wrote: petestra wrote: Hi Bjorn, I just thought of a favorite film of mine. The WW2 film "The Train" starring Burt Lancaster from 1964. Watch this u-tube and you will see what happens to this Begleitwagen. Cheers, Peter The Begleitwagen is actually a Donnerbuechsen baggage car. Not so lucky for the guy at the back door. War is hell! The guy in the donnerbüchsen had for sure a bad day! An immortal movie. I watch it over and over again! Yannis
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