Hi all,

My first post. And I am a novice in digital to say the least! So ANY help is much appreciated. My HO setup has 1 delta ICE(29797), one 29135 Starter Set (has a digital loco) and one old 3042 (analog), apart from rolling stock. I am operating in analog mode. Want to upgrade to digital operation, so presumably need to first convert the 3042 to digital.

Questions:
1. whats the cheapest upgrade for the 3042 - a simple 60760 decoder ? or ESU - I see lots of the members talking about ESU? I mean, if there is only a marginal cost difference, I would rather I go for a slightly higher end decoder with more fucntions (like sound !)
2. To get a 'digital' transformer (I currently have a OLD blue analog one and white analog one from the 29135 set), how do I do it? I plan to buy the cheapest new starter set to get a digital operation running, unless you can recommend a cheaper quick fix solution (6021, mobile station ??).

Please help - we dont have any dealer etc. here in India to guide me!

thanks a ton. A follow on Q: I have enabled interior lighting for the rolling stock (including the ICE) - but the bane of analog mode is that the light intensity varies with the voltage supplied to the track, and hence appears unreal. In digital - is there a constant voltage supplied to the track and hence will lighting intensity be uniform (and hence more real), or am I worng in assuming constant voltage ?

Do not use blue transformers with digital.

John

Hello Akshaydi,

The easiest and cheapest way to convert the 3042 is by putting in a Tams decoder type LD-W-32. That way you don't have to convert the engine at all.

Here is a link: http://www.tams-online.de/htmls...2/produkte_ldgldw32.html
and email address: modellbahn@tams-online.de

This is a small German company specialised in electronics for MRR. Their website is almost exclusively in German but you can write them in English and get a reply also in English.

Good luck, Robert from Niederrhein/Germany.

Hello Tom,

They are not cheap, they cost less then Esu's or Uhlenbrock's and a lot less then Märklin decoders. I have 12 of them "im Einsatz" on DCM's and SFCM's and they run very reliably and provide excellent driving characteristics. Not to be compared to DC+5-pole conversions at slow speeds but with excellent driveability and much better control at medium to high speeds, even with the 3-pole rotor retained!

As I said, no need for a motor conversion and retaining the superior pulling power of the series motor (Reihenschlussmotor). What most people don't realise is that a DC conversion, i.e. replacing the field coil by a magnet, increases the ability for a steady slow speed but at the same time loosing up to 50% of pulling power at medium-high speeds. As for load control, due to the typical characteristics of the series motor it doesn't really need load control at medium to higher speed levels.

Another advantage is the lower (60 or 460 Hz) PWM frequency which make your brushes last almost forever. (because of the much higher motor induction -rotor + field coils- higher frequencies (in the kHz range) on a series motor are useless anyway)

If you look at the price difference, some 12 euro's for a Tams and upwards of 40 Euro's for an Esu or Uhlenbrock DC conversion I can buy another brand new Märklin set for the money I saved! (I actually did, a BR 64 with sound and 4 Umbauwagen).

Schöne Grüsse nach Köln, Robert

Hi, Robert!

"Cheap" is the English word for "billig" - and they are cheap (low-priced) if they cost less than others.
IMHO they are cheap, but are no bargain (billig, aber nicht preiswert). That's my opinion based on my requirements and my experiences (with Tams LD-W-1, LD-W-3, LD-G-2, LD-G-32): I won't buy no more Tams decoders, neither without nor with load regulation.

I know that others are very happy with their Tams decoders.

@Ray:
They are better than 6080/Delta because you can set minimum and maximum speed so you can fully use the available speed steps.

Another thing is load regulation. Digital locos will maintain their speed when going downhill. They will not pickup speed and fly off the track.

Hi, Robert!

Tams and Märklin 60760 are the cheap decoders. Compared to USB memory sticks or MP3 players they are expensive.
You recommended Tams as the "cheapest" way.

I'll rather spend 28 Euro for an ESU decoder than 12 Euro for a Tams decoder. I consider ESU a better value for my money.
A 60760 will do for some locos.

I'd be happy if I could get ESU quality for the Tams price. Or even better: three ESU decoders for the price of one Tams decoders.

Such a decoder is not just hardware, there is also software involved. I guess the software makes the difference when it comes to load regulation (along with the measuring hardware).
Some of the new Märklin mfx decoders won't move with an acceleration delay of 16 seconds. I presume there's a bug in the software that leads to an overflow or a rounding error or something like that.
They no longer pay royalties to ESU - but make some customers unhappy.

Roco pay less royalties to ESU by using Uhlenbrock decoders - and they also make some customers unhappy.

Competition is good for lower prices.
I haven't tried Zimo, I haven't tried Kühn, I haven't tried current Lenz decoders.

MRR is an expensive hobby - because it's not mass production but small volume production.

Hi Tom, Ray,

Well I guess it all depends on your perspective. What I was pointing out is that both in terms of hardware and software MRR decoders are extremely basic low-tech devices based on technologies and µP(rocessors) dating back to the early 1980's. As for their soft/firmware, these PIC's can only take just a handful of lines of code, the codes themselves, DCC and Motorola I and II are open source codes, available without royalties. (Only Mfx or if you wish the ESU variant of it is proprietary).

You can produce such devices in a small garage-size shop with an investment of some 10-30.000 euro's for second hand (compiler, PIC programmer, assembling and soldering) equipment (new equipment will set you back some 100-200.000 E) churning out anywhere between a 100-500 per day almost without supervision and proudly label them "Made in Germany"...

The costs (procurement) of all the components including (China-made) PCB's is less then 0.25 E per decoder for say 10000 pcs. It takes an average amateur programmer with some knowledge of Pascal about half a day to write the code for the PIC. All in all the per unit production costs would be under 0.50 E including design costs and depreciation. OK, add another 0.02 E for financing and storage. No need for third-party certification (as is compulsory for many other electronic products). A simple manufacturers declaration will do. That alone saves me some 10.0000 E in prototype testing! And why bother about making my products ROHS-compliant? Nobody does... not even ESU...

If I were that manufacturer I could easily sell this product at a consumer price of anywhere between 2.50 and 5.00 E ex VAT making a very handsome profit for a one man operation and still having plenty of time to fiddle around with the firmware and some hardware variants to produce a whole line of different models of that decoder.

Until of course I find out that the market will happily accept a unit price of up to 40 E for my simple products... Would that make me greedy??

Most people think this MRR "digital products" market (so I'm not talking about loc's, coaches, vans and other MRR hardware) is small. Is it? In Germany alone there are about a dozen companies producing this stuff, some of them big enough to have their whole production move to China, just like the mobile phone and coffee machine producers to name but a few. They wouldn't be there if this was a small niche market...

The fact is that this is a hobby market, the consumers are not very price-conscious, they want the feeling that what they buy is an exclusive product and are therefore willing to pay a premium price so long as they believe that they are buying a premium product. In fact in this market any low-cost product will be approached with suspicion.. That is the difference between a USB stick and an MRR decoder.

And as for third world countries, I don't think the per-capita income in India where the question starting this thread came from is anywhere near that of the inhabitants of Germany or Gibraltar.

Hello Ray,

I already do, except that my company produces proprietary/patented controls for heating installations, including PWM and PID (=load control) circuitry. Drop me a line if you're interested in that sort of products

I do admit that it irritates me no end that I have to comply with all kinds of rules and regulations, including third-party testing and ROHS whereas the MRR world gets away without such things. Funny, MRR decoders have to comply with the EU Toy Directive which only requires a manufacturers declaration but the much newer European ROHS rules, banning toxic substances such as lead and cadmium or mercury in electronic products is not enforced.

And yes my name is Robert, 64 years old, born Dutchman and living in Germany.

And if you want lower priced decoders, simply stop buying the high priced ones. Any manufacturer will sell its products at a price that will maximize their profit. I am no different frankly. Except that the market I am in (professionally that is) doesn't accept a premium price for a run-of-the-mill product. In the end it is always the customer who dictates the price level, not the manufacturer. Look at the I-Phone and compare it with the other smart phones on the market. Then you'll agree that the only smart one in that market is Steve Jobs, not any of these phones or customers for that matter... Generally speaking, make a product appear glossy and people will pay double the price to get it. Even I do sometimes...

Best regards, Robert

A Tams LD-G-32 with a Hamo magnet will give you load regulation.
I tried it in a Piko loco and was dissatisfied with the load regulation.

@Robert:
Locos are overpriced, decoders are overpriced, controllers are overpriced.
Märklin celebrated their 2009 EBIT profit (but EAT was a red zero). Where's all the money from the overpriced products gone?
Go ahead and make a fortune with decoders and controllers - use some open source routines from the web and earn big money.

If you need a low-priced decoder to convert your older Marklin locos for digital operation you've got to buy from the sources available.
TAMS is one and the PD 101 from Hobby-Eberhardt is another. ESU make a low-priced one one as well but it doesn't have the same functionality.
You don't need to replace the field coil with a magnet so the cost of the decoder + delivery + installation is the only cost involved.
Don't forget that both decoders allow your locos to function as analogue or digital locos (but note the warning about the use of blue transformers above) and you will get excellent reversing with these decoders in either mode of operation.

Find out more about the PD-101 here:

(http://www.pd101.com/e/pages/impressum.asp )

Technical data (copied from site)

- maximum for motor 700mA

- adjustable acceleration and breaking delay

- adjustable starting / middle / maximum tension for
speed control

- 3 functions with max. 100 – 350mA on Märklin* 6021 or
Intellibox. Maximum for each function is 100 mA , it may
increase up to 350 mA if total on the decoder is not more
than 1000 mA.

- function: lights in driving direction

- F1: light in opposite direction

- F2: free for individual use (Telex, Smoker)

- F3 acceleration/breaking delay off/on

- Signal stop with adjustable breaking delay

- Direct programming without opening of the loco with
Märklin 6021 or Intellibox.

- For use on analog AC or DC systems is no special
programming necessary.

- Same size as Märklin Delta decoder (35 x 20 mm).

- Replaces exactly the mechanical (reversing) switch of the Märklin loco.

21 Euros each and you are buying from the manufacturer (as with TAMS).

The running characteristics are excellent - I have had more experience with the PD 101.
As for installing them: You need to have a steady hand and a hot soldering iron and you need to clean the commutator slots before you install the decoder.
Good luck and I hope you post your experiences here.

Dear Retrotrains,

Many thanks for telling us about these two sources of decoders. I want to try these out and compare them to an ESU Lokpilot v.3.5

With regards,
Tom C.

---

PS and Disclaimer:

I am now going to ask some rhetorical questions on this whole topic. Please IGNORE my questions if you don't care for rhetorical musings. On the other hand, if you enjoy such things, I'm eager to hear your comments.

-If it's technically POSSIBLE to build a good decoder that doesn't require conversion to a permanent magnet, why didn't Marklin offer one years and years ago? Why didn't Lenz, ESU, Uhlenbrock, etc?

-If the laws of physics and motors convinced Marklin and others that good running characteristics were ONLY possible with a DC motor, then what have TAMS and Eberhardt suddenly discovered that Marklin never knew?

- Marklin built millions and millions of loks with universal motors in them over the past several decades. That's a lot of loks could be converted to digital. If TAMS and Eberhardt have a cheaper, easier solution, why aren't consumers beating down their doors to buy their decoders?

- True or false: The market for kits to convert old Marklin loks is shrinking by the day, since all new loks come with digital already installed.

-T/F: Folks who are interested in buying decoders for their Marklin loks are very likely to be above the age of 35, maybe even 40. The folks most interested in them will be even older (like me.)

- For those of you who have now read about the TAMS and Eberhardt decoders, but are not interested, why not?

Here's my own $.02 on the subject of decoder costs. For everyone, it's all a matter of price point. I find it unpalatable to buy a $130 digital sound decoder to convert an old Marklin lok. It's just too much money for what I'd end up with. On the other hand, I can choke down $27.95 for an excellent quality non-sound decoder. I end up with at least $27.95 worth of fun in tinkering with the thing in the shop. Plus a digitized lok. I really like the ESU lokpilot for this kind of project.

Enough ramblings. Just musing!

---

Disclaimer again: The following are just my musings. Not necessarily exactly on topic. So, please don't read further if that offends you.

---

Dear Robert,

Many thanks for answering my questions. This was very illuminating. I remember the advent of the Delta decoders. But many people sneered at them!!! Said they ran rough. Plus they were pricey for what you got. You are the first person that has explained to me that people began valuing slow, smooth crawl more than pulling power. Thus the move to conversion to permanent magnets.

I myself am an example, now that I think about it. When I was 8 years old in Graz, the last thing I wanted from my Marklin loks was "prototypically slow crawl", the way it's described in today's M catalongs. What I loved was watching the little 3000's haul ass around my layout, pulling as many cars as I could afford. I guess most kids liked the same thing.

It's weird that now, I am much more intrigued by that slow, slow digital crawl. Especially in a great big BR38 1 spur with 2 meter drivers, just barely moving along, one tie per second with the rods slowly pumping. It looks very realistic! Running at a ridiculously high scale speed holds no attraction any more, just seems dumb. Nor do I have room for 60 tankers, either in 1 scale or in HO. Guess I got old somehow over these past many decades.
It's all still a lot of fun, however.

Robert, do you find it beyond insane that a digital command center cost $800? I'd rather find a way to make an iPad work with Decoder Pro if I'm going to spend that kind of money.

Regards,
Tommy

I'm happy with ESU decoders and having a lokprogrammer it is so easy to program decoders.
I'm dissapointed with Roco they've changed their supplier ,so decoders as in the digital electric uncoupling solenoid is now offered with a decoder, but not an ESU brand.
My personal choice, is and are loadregulated decoders, 5 pole motors and ball bearing on both sides.

Märklin Brushplate, in my opinion is long overdue of an overhaul but it shows, trains enthusiasts remark on colour, writing, wrong design etc etc. but no one comes forward and mentions the irregularity running characteristic is caused by the brushplate. (for drum collectors).
Most of you most probably never looked at the angle the brushholder is at.
It suppose to be resting against the bruhsplate but most the timewhen the machine presses the part onto the brushplate it must bend up slightly, causing the brushes to be off the 90° angle and hence a slower running speed.

John

Hi Tommy,




I find that "jenseits gut und böse"!! Insane being almost an understatement.. As for the IPad, have a look at Rocrail (or rather IRoc) which seems to be an IPhone app. Check this link:IRoc
I am quite happy with an Uhlenbrock IB-Com for $ 266 (€ 200,=) hooked up to my Macbook running ITrain (Itrain.

Hi Ray,



That doesn't have to be the case. Fitted with properly programmed decoders like a Tams LD-W-32 or 33 the universal motor (without PM conversion) can run as smooth at low to very low speeds as a DC motor with the added advantage of a lot more torque. But don't compare analog AC to digital DC (I'd rather call them universal or series motor, they run both on AC and on DC). Keep in mind also that slow running is not a function of motor type but of gearing. Most old Mä loco's have a gear reduction of 1:16, whereas almost all original DC equipped loco's (Roco, Fleischmann etc) have 1:33. If you can run a Roco at 3 kph min. scale speed you can run a Mä at 6 kph, with or without PM conversion, minimum speed being dictated by min. rotor revs. As to max. (scale) speed, that is just a matter of CV 5 setting, in all decoders.


Hi John,



That is not correct. First, without any lateral play in the brush holder the brushes get stuck and won't move against the collector. Besides, have a look at the hinged brush holders on many DC motors, they change their angle even more on the collector when the brushes wear out...

Hi Gautham,



The reason is that you are using a low-induction 5-pole intended for use with the Mä Permanent magnet (HLA) conversion set in a series motor with the field coils still in place. Put the 3-poler back in and you will have solved your problem. As for the noises, just clean your motor and all the gears, lubricate sparsely making sure no oil gets on the collector or brushes.

Best regards to you all, Robert